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Author Topic: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard  (Read 16137 times)

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Online TheGlyphstone

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #150 on: December 04, 2012, 06:21:34 PM »
Just for future reference, for whoever's cohort ends up being our craftswhore:

The Minmaxer's Complete Cost Reduction Handbook

We can pick-and choose from the list to perfectly calibrate to our acceptable level of cheese.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 06:32:03 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #151 on: December 04, 2012, 06:50:12 PM »
Just for future reference, for whoever's cohort ends up being our craftswhore:

The Minmaxer's Complete Cost Reduction Handbook

We can pick-and choose from the list to perfectly calibrate to our acceptable level of cheese.

I always grab the three artisan feats to reduce everything to 75% - For some I might see if Magical artisan will stack. Most of the others are a bit iffy

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #152 on: December 04, 2012, 06:56:22 PM »
I always grab the three artisan feats to reduce everything to 75% - For some I might see if Magical artisan will stack. Most of the others are a bit iffy

Magical Artisan definitely stacks, but it's limited to one item creation feat each time you take i t - Craft Wondrous Item is the best. Anything that doesn't stack with the other stuff is called out in the handbook, so it's all 100% legal, the question is how cheesy we want to get in the process (the binding of Colossal Fire Whales into all our gear, for instance).

Besides, the time-reducing artisan feat is junk, because you can have a Dedicated Wright do all your crafting for you after 5th level anyways. So you only want the -GP and -XP ones.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 06:58:30 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #153 on: December 04, 2012, 06:57:59 PM »
Magical Artisan definitely stacks, but it's limited to one item creation feat each time you take it. Anything that doesn't stack with the other stuff is called out in the handbook, so it's all 100% legal, the question is how cheesy we want to get in the process (the binding of Colossal Fire Whales into all our gear, for instance).

Besides, the time-reducing artisan feat is junk, because you can have a Dedicated Wright do all your crafting for you after 5th level anyways. So you only want the -GP and -XP ones.

Knowing how slow games move I find even with the wright time reduction is very important. Ive had a single day take over a month to get through. I guess in some campaigns things move faster and since this one has to span years it may end up being such a campaign.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #154 on: December 04, 2012, 07:02:09 PM »
Knowing how slow games move I find even with the wright time reduction is very important. Ive had a single day take over a month to get through. I guess in some campaigns things move faster and since this one has to span years it may end up being such a campaign.

Even in a slow-paced game, you're not going to be crafting during 'active' days', and 'passive' days can just be handwaved by...but the wright can craft during both active and passive days. For that matter, spend an extra 4,000GP when building your Wright, and it'll get another feat which it can spend on Exceptional Artisan and get the time reduction anyways while still leaving you free to punch monsters in the face and take their stuff.

Offline CarnivalOfTheGoat

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #155 on: December 04, 2012, 07:26:35 PM »
Hmm perhaps a good point. I have to wonder if the DM was wanting over the top hijinks or just a bit of self patronizing humor.

Well the wonderful thing about Tank Dryad is keep her at home with lots of beer and cigars and she will just make magic gear for everyone (Assuming you don't end up with this)

http://oglaf.com/breastplate/

And Were T Rex still has a human form.

Even more appropriate to this group:
Sharks vs Jets

Offline AutocadTopic starter

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #156 on: December 05, 2012, 12:09:40 AM »
I'll make a fuller post when I get home but I want to check - who is a caster needing full caster levels, who needs 12 class levels for class features and who just wants 12 hit die.

Offline frost rose

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #157 on: December 05, 2012, 12:12:50 AM »
I go away for a day-ish and you people write all the things. I feel so slow.

Honestly, I think we're getting a little carried away. Remember that we are supposed to be subtle, or at least not ridiculously over-the-top...if we're too attention-gathering, it'll tip off Good that we're up to something and ruin the entire operation.

Tank Dryads and Were-T-Rexes, while awesome, are not subtle.

What are you talking about? Okay, maybe the weretyrannosaur is a little over the top, but a sky pirate death zeppelin say? Evil needs style. Of course, we can always segregate, and be low key mostly, and break out the flying castles when providing a great threat that needs to be overcome.

But speaking of lack of style, I wasn't actually thinking about anything that needed an LA?

...if that's okay? I feel so boring and/or like a terrible min-maxer now.

Offline ExisD

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #158 on: December 05, 2012, 12:17:51 AM »
I mostly wanted the succubus at wills to go along with a more martial class so she'd be able to do something useful out of combat. So sort of both for HD v class levels.

I wasn't planning to do full caster because they are honestly broken and not very fun to play at the levels we're taking about, especially in a group this large, at least for me. I'll probably use the book of nine for most of my classes.

Offline Zaer Darkwail

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #159 on: December 05, 2012, 01:35:11 AM »
Hmmm, a slimegirl cohort could be fun.

Anyways I need most my class levels as chameleon to be useful 'doppleganger' in class wise and be changeling has perks act role of villains. Being a vampire is a plus to get reliable minions to act undead mastermind roles and so on. But then again, I could be actual doppleganger instead just being changeling. Just get one rogue level or other class level (bard level perhaps to get spellcraft ranks easily and some minor spellcasting ability and bardic music).

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #160 on: December 05, 2012, 02:29:19 AM »
I'll make a fuller post when I get home but I want to check - who is a caster needing full caster levels, who needs 12 class levels for class features and who just wants 12 hit die.

I would need full caster levels, but with the rules you posted Nymph ends up working out perfectly for me. I lose a hit dice, which is quite acceptable. Assuming I cam make the druid to wizard swap I'm satisfied with this.

But speaking of lack of style, I wasn't actually thinking about anything that needed an LA?

...if that's okay? I feel so boring and/or like a terrible min-maxer now.

Here is what id suggest, figure out what you want to play that doesn't have an LA. Then find a thematically appropriate template with a moderate LA. You wont have to feel boring, you won't have to feel like you were forced to minmax, and you'll be of a somewhat comparative power level to the rest of us.

 Of course if you are really against it you could be a normal non adjusted PC race. You could even make it a defining trait with your character either an everyman sort of role where you are like the batman in a group of superpower demigods, and also the one who tends to notice and point out how insane everyone else is. Or alternatively you could have more of a friendly rival roll showing that your just a normal human/elf/whatever and can be just as good, if not better than  these "peacocks".  (Some classes like druid are monsters at high levels no matter what your base race and stats are)

It's really about what you want. If your want a basic race but really don't want to not have the additional powers we do , you can find something to add into your mix. If literally want to be an unenhanced Ecl+0  I doubt anyone will complain, and if build well you can still have plenty to offer.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #161 on: December 05, 2012, 07:06:14 AM »
I'll make a fuller post when I get home but I want to check - who is a caster needing full caster levels, who needs 12 class levels for class features and who just wants 12 hit die.

I need the caster levels more than the class features, but the setup you posted works fine for me - Unbodied are 4HD, +4 LA, and have 4 Telepath levels baked in to their HD anyways. Strip away that 4 LA as proposed, and I can roll straight into Mindbender 1/Thrallherd 7 without a hitch.

Offline AutocadTopic starter

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #162 on: December 05, 2012, 10:56:40 AM »
OK, so I reread the thread and came up with the following:

Kunoichi - Succubus - 6 racial HD + 6 class levels + 0 LA
ExisD - Succubus - 6 racial HD + 6 class levels + 0 LA
PaleEnchantress - Nymph - 6 racial HD + 5 class levels + 1 LA, wizard spellcasting substitution approved
Zaer Darkwail - Vampire Changeling - 0 racial HD + 10 class levels + 2 LA, you can take vampire lord later
TheGlphystone - Unbodied - 4 racial HD + 8 class levels + 0 LA, extra feat at level 1, 4 extra skill points at level 1 + 1 extra skill point per level thereafter, +2 to two ability scores of your choice

For monsters with racial HD, base stats are those given in the monster manual. Then, add/subtract the following (+4, +3, +2, +2, +0, -2) to the ability scores of your choice to simulate an elite array. At 4 HD, 8 HD and 12 HD you get the usual +1 to an ability score of your choice. However the monster manual entry is assumed to already include the increases from existing HD. For example succubus only gets +1 for 8 HD and 12 HD.

For races without racial HD, use the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) as the starting point and work from there.

You get feats at 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th HD, some of which may be accounted for in the monster manual entry if you have racial HD. You are free to swap those out for feats you actually want.

If you are interested in joining but your name is not on the above list, you need to come up with a character idea so that it can be (dis)approved.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #163 on: December 05, 2012, 11:11:35 AM »
The two +2 bonuses are in addition to my Elite array modifications and the 'base stats' of the Unbodied?

Also, how will I be handling items? As a bodiless incorporeal creature that can adopt any appearance, I technically have no body slots. Do we handwave it and assume I get an equivalent number of slots corresponding to what a humanoid would have, or do I need to pay the 2x cost premium on all my gear to make it slotless?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 11:46:44 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #164 on: December 05, 2012, 12:01:37 PM »
The two +2 bonuses are in addition to my Elite array modifications and the 'base stats' of the Unbodied?

Also, how will I be handling items? As a bodiless incorporeal creature that can adopt any appearance, I technically have no body slots. Do we handwave it and assume I get an equivalent number of slots corresponding to what a humanoid would have, or do I need to pay the 2x cost premium on all my gear to make it slotless?

I suggest we say you have the same slots a human does.

I also suggest we allow flaws (to the usual limit  of 2) considering how feat starves everyone is likely to be. Especially if most are in agreement to blow a slot on landlord.

Online Kunoichi

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #165 on: December 05, 2012, 12:02:47 PM »
Also, there's the Ghostly Grasp feat from Libris Mortis.  Unbodied even have a high enough Charisma score to take it naturally.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #166 on: December 05, 2012, 12:10:16 PM »
Also, there's the Ghostly Grasp feat from Libris Mortis.  Unbodied even have a high enough Charisma score to take it naturally.

Yeah, but all that does is let me interact with non-ethereal objects...and I don't even have hands, I need to use my Telekinetic Force PLA. My personal gear is all going to be permanently Ethereal (even if that means I had it forged there).

Online Kunoichi

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #167 on: December 05, 2012, 12:25:13 PM »
Actually, Unbodied are only Incorporeal, not Ethereal, and more importantly, the exact text of Ghostly Grasp is 'You can wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though you were not incorporeal.'

I think it's got you covered. ;D

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #168 on: December 05, 2012, 12:28:44 PM »
Actually, Unbodied are only Incorporeal, not Ethereal, and more importantly, the exact text of Ghostly Grasp is 'You can wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though you were not incorporeal.'

I think it's got you covered. ;D

I always get those mixed up. Still, my items need to be Incorporeal, or else I have to leave them behind whenever I go through a wall. And I'm still not sure Ghostly Grasp will solve my problems (though I like your interpretation)...it's written intended for things like ghosts, wraiths, etc. - otherwise humanoid or at least incorporeal entities with a recognizable body plan. I don't know how it works when you have no discernible form at all, but unless Autocad says otherwise, I'm using the most liberal interpretation.


Maybe Autocad will give us all Landlord for free, since we're taking it anyways.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 12:35:46 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Online Kunoichi

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #169 on: December 05, 2012, 01:11:15 PM »
Hmm...  So, a question for everyone.  I've decided that for my succubus character, I'll go for the build that involves taking a lot of miscellaneous class levels in order to better take advantage of her large Charisma score.  This would also leave the basic Fiend of Possession/Fiend of Corruption route open for ExisD, if she's still interested in it.

Anyway, the basic backstory and personality I'm starting to come up with for my character is that of a Succubus who's a bit of a dabbler in various professions, maybe someone who took up a variety of hobbies inbetween sucking souls out of mortals for fun and power.  A level of Marshal for a little training as a motivational speaker, a dip in Cloistered Cleric for those domain powers, a level of Telepath and the Practiced Manifester feat so she could qualify for Thrallherd and get a proper entourage going, and now I'm thinking her cohort will be a Beguiler (the monster, not the class,) and pretend to be her familiar...

So, anyway, my question is, does anyone have any good suggestions for classes to finish off those last two levels with?  My first thought is Fiend of Corruption for the Mind-Shielding and Fiend's Favor, or maybe a variant Paladin or Blackguard for Charisma to saves, but I'm wondering if maybe I'm missing out on some other good classes or prestige classes to take, instead.

Offline Zaer Darkwail

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #170 on: December 05, 2012, 01:16:34 PM »
Ok, I stick with vampire changeling then. As we should get phase 1 or 2 easily done.

Offline ExisD

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #171 on: December 05, 2012, 01:25:14 PM »
I'm still going to go for succubus, they're so much fun to play, though I think that I'll take advantage of the full bab that she'd get and go for more of a martial character with fiend of corruption. She'd alternate between the mysterious benefactor, wandering sword instructor, and damsel in distress for the purposes of tempting people.

Probably going to use Sword Sage an Warblade ash er primary classes, though I do wish I could get a higher strength score. Oh well, I'll see what I can do to get CHA added to things. I'm probably going to be grabbing a bunch of magic items focused on that.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #172 on: December 05, 2012, 01:28:14 PM »
Why burn two feats+class level to qualify for Thrallherd, when you can just burn one feat for Leadership?

ExisD is, apparently, going Fiend of Corruption, so you can still be a Fiend of Possession (if we don't have one as a PC, someone's cohort should be in charge of this).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 01:29:23 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #173 on: December 05, 2012, 01:55:18 PM »
Why burn two feats+class level to qualify for Thrallherd, when you can just burn one feat for Leadership?

ExisD is, apparently, going Fiend of Corruption, so you can still be a Fiend of Possession (if we don't have one as a PC, someone's cohort should be in charge of this).

Because Thrallherd gives you higher modifiers, and 2 cohorts, one of which  is a level higher than what you could normally get. To replicate your Thrallherding I had to spend 3 feats and still end up with less of a herd who take longer to replace and aren't quite as fanatically loyal.   Also if the flaws get approved you shouldn't be too feat starved. Of course you could just go for leadership if you wanted to do something else.

My Dvati will be a fiend of possession whether someone else is or not.

Online Kunoichi

Re: [D&D 3.5 high-level evil campaign] Project Blackguard
« Reply #174 on: December 05, 2012, 02:02:04 PM »
Why burn two feats+class level to qualify for Thrallherd, when you can just burn one feat for Leadership?

Only one feat, actually.  And I'm choosing Thrallherd over Leadership for a variety of reasons.  Minions attained via Thrallherd are inherently more expendable than those attained via Leadership, I like psionics a lot, I like the Thrallherd class in particular...  Actually, I think personal preference is really my main reason. ^^;

I'm still going to go for succubus, they're so much fun to play, though I think that I'll take advantage of the full bab that she'd get and go for more of a martial character with fiend of corruption. She'd alternate between the mysterious benefactor, wandering sword instructor, and damsel in distress for the purposes of tempting people.

Probably going to use Sword Sage an Warblade ash er primary classes, though I do wish I could get a higher strength score. Oh well, I'll see what I can do to get CHA added to things. I'm probably going to be grabbing a bunch of magic items focused on that.

To be honest, even with outsider hit dice providing full BAB, Succubi aren't really meant to be melee muscle at all.  It seems to be a rule for evil-aligned outsiders in general that the ones that are good at combat can't be pretty enough for intrigue. >>; As opposed to Angels and Eladrin and Archons, who get to look good, get huge boatloads of SLAs, and get excellent fighting capabilities on top of that.

Hmm.  Actually, the Fiend Folio has the Movanic Deva, a 6 HD angel with stats that seem like they'd suit your purposes quite well.  Add 6 levels of Warblade on top of that, and you could wind up with quite a versatile character, I think.