You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 09, 2016, 01:35:12 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle  (Read 7486 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stattick

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2012, 07:03:43 PM »
It's a story about a 50 year old monument that has a bible verse on it being removed even though it was paid with private funds.

Didn't you read the article? It was a lighted box that displayed an OPEN BIBLE in it. As an endorsement to specific religions, it had NO PLACE in the auditorium of a public courthouse. Bravo for the lawsuit and bravo for the brave woman that brought the suit that had the Bible removed. Hopefully no one's made good on the death threats she received for her efforts.

Offline Deamonbane

  • A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Location: The world would be a sadder place without stories.
  • Gender: Male
  • Make me smile...
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2012, 07:46:49 PM »
No you haven't. You might think you have, but you haven't. Some creationists are pretty good at manufacturing fake evidence, particularly for those that have a vested interest in being told what they want to believe.

Or would you care to provide citations for the creationist scientists that have published their proof in peer reviewed journals like any normal scientist would?

Evolution is the most studied theory in science. It's the most proven theory in science. If evolution is wrong, then it means that most of our other sciences are wrong as well. Biology, chemistry, geology, nuclear physics, dendrochronology, mathematics, and genetics would all have to be dead wrong. Millions of scientists would have to be lying constantly and consistantly, without ever breaking ranks to create the world's largest conspiracy to make it appear that evolution was true if it weren't. I prefer the simpler solution, that creationism is myth rather than to believe that all of science is a lie and that all scientists are liars. Besides, I can point at things that science has created, at things that science has improved upon in my lifetime. Whereas I cannot point at anything that religion has made better. Hell, probably half of the world population lives under the dictates of a religion that says that women are held in such low esteem that they cannot be priests.


Like I said, I am not saying that Creation is right, even if I believe so. I am just saying that Evolution has been pointed out to be wrong a lot. And I would very much like to discuss this with you in a civil manner, without need for insults, and the putting of words in my mouth, in a Thread marked for such a thing, in which you can properly bash me over the head with my ignorance.

And as for Atheism, I haven't seem them create anything either. Whereas missionaries are all over the world, making it a better place by providing food, Medical expertise, and other such things to places that need it, whereas Christianity inspired men such as Mozart, Beethoven, and Michelangelo, I can't seem to recall one work of art inspired by Atheism. All I can recall is those guys sitting on their asses, laughing at how dumb Christians are. I am not saying that Christianity is the best. It also inspired such bad things as the massacres all over the Middle Ages, Crusades, and just about all the bad stuff in that time period. Science, however, hasn't done much better. It invented lots of bio-friendly crops. It has also developed  Biological weapons. It has also been responsible for good nuclear energy.  I could go on,, and on, and on about all the good and bad things that both religion and science have done for the world, but that would be beside the point. The point is that what the fuck are we fighting about? Nice, fun, healthy discussion is, as I said, fun. If you have to stoop to insulting merely because I am, in your eyes, misinformed, then, my friend, you should have a few history lessons about how good that went by in the past.

Offline Slywyn

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2012, 08:21:12 PM »
As far as I can tell he didn't insult you. He pointed out that evolution is one of the most scientifically proven theories in science to date. There are monumental piles of evidence to support it. I, personally, have never actually seen even one credible piece of evidence that remotedly disproves it.

I know personal experience goes not very far toward proving something, but I've see mountains of one and nothing of another.

Offline Deamonbane

  • A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Location: The world would be a sadder place without stories.
  • Gender: Male
  • Make me smile...
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2012, 08:26:22 PM »
You might think you have, but you haven't.

 I prefer the simpler solution, that creationism is myth rather than to believe that all of science is a lie and that all scientists are liars. Besides, I can point at things that science has created, at things that science has improved upon in my lifetime. Whereas I cannot point at anything that religion has made better. Hell, probably half of the world population lives under the dictates of a religion that says that women are held in such low esteem that they cannot be priests.

I don't know about you, but that felt pretty insulting to me... I could be wrong, for which you can call me an idiot, but it seemed pretty darn insulting to me...

Offline ulthakptah

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2012, 08:27:17 PM »
Didn't you read the article? It was a lighted box that displayed an OPEN BIBLE in it. As an endorsement to specific religions, it had NO PLACE in the auditorium of a public courthouse. Bravo for the lawsuit and bravo for the brave woman that brought the suit that had the Bible removed. Hopefully no one's made good on the death threats she received for her efforts.
Oh noes! an open bible in a display case! Really don't you think that's an over reaction? It was a memorial. I don't know who William Mosher is, other than the article saying he was a philanthropist, but since there is a bible in his display case I'm guessing he was religious. Should all memorials of religious do gooders be removed from other public places? What about a statue of Mother Teresa? Should that be removed just because she was a nun? Anyway who reads a book in a display case? you can't even turn the pages, you have to get close to the glass. The whole thing would be a lot of trouble just to read a book.


Also I'm going to try and nip this in the bud right now. Science and Religion is not an example of dichotomy. Religious people and understand and accept science and vice versa.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2012, 10:03:17 PM »
I have been presented with more evidence than I would care to talk about that Evolution is a hoax, a fraud, and the 'evidence' that has been presented for it has been time and time again been disproven by scientists in the field, ones that weren't being sponsored by people interested in them finding evidence that proves evolution.

No, you have not, and no such thing has occurred. Feel free to start a thread claiming such, but you have been presented with no evidence against evolution whatsoever. At best, someone lied to you. At worst, you paid someone for the privilege.

You're actually calling a large number of members of this forum - who have seen and done such research with our own eyes, frauds. And for what end? So more people can suffer and die each year?

These people work long hours, doing thankless tasks, for little net benefit to themselves, but provide you with serious tangible benefits, and for what? So you can spit in their face and call them frauds, repeating the lies of actual, convicted frauds such as Kent Hovind?

At some level, it reminds me of arguing with someone who claimed that quantum mechanics was bunk, over the Internet. It's not as patently hilarious to anyone who has a concept of how electronic transistors work, but at the same time, it's more insidious and horrifying. The damage Creationists do has a cost in human suffering and lives. I don't blame you for buying into it, but please take a step back and understand that scientists are not faceless inhuman entities.

They are people. Some of whom are here.

And they do work. Some of which has or may improve your life.

And you may never get a chance to thank them in person. They don't exactly work for pay.

Quote
However, as this isn't a Creationist vs. Evolutionist thread, and I would be more than happy to discuss this, in a manner in which religion is not involved (because, well, I am thinking that there is as little chance that you will be convinced that the Universe was created in six days as there is a chance of me believing in the Big Bang)... However, the point remaining is that I have seen, in current Textbooks, facts that have been very firmly disproved by the scientific world 50 years ago, and I don't like that my tax payer's dollars are going to spreading stuff like that. That being said, I agree firmly with you, and if you are paying towards the upkeep of something that you normally would have no business even looking at, then you have every right in the world to get the government on the case of said object, to, if not get rid of it, then at least make sure that you don't have to pay for it.

Usually this is stuff like where a given bone goes, or other data points. This is more an impact of the underfunding of educational programs, and the ridiculous lockdown that textbook publishers have on that market.

But again, feel free to start a thread if you take issue with a specific point.

Quote
I personally have no idea what you are talking about an expression of entropy, so that means that I am probably wrong, and you are right... however, looking over the everything, showing that everything has balance until man comes around and disrupts it, I find it rather hard to believe that all of this came together by chance, which was my point to begin with. I am not saying that you believe that, I am just saying that I do not.

I can't really address the latter. It's certainly unnecessary to invent a micromanaging God for the Universe, though.

Entropy is 'heat' after a fashion - not heat in the sense of something being hot versus cold, but rather in the sense of being energy that is so evenly dissipated that it cannot be harnessed. Thus when we speak of 'the heat death of the Universe', it's actually very cold. But it's cold everywhere. The stars have long since ceased to shine, and nothing remains but a cold, dead void, for all time.

A simple way to think of it is to take a pool, place a film separating it into two halves, and fill one side with dye. Here you have your highly ordered, original Universe. Remove the film (the 'Big Bang'), and all chaos breaks loose as the dye spreads to the entirety of the pool, creating many very artistic turbulent wisps as it does so.

You are one such wisp. Were you to somehow reverse the process, your order of perception, too, would reverse.

I hope that helps. : /

Quote
But I agree with Vodka. The Arguing over these subjects brings out the worst in any kind of person, including myself(I recall very vividly having made a  complete fool of myself not too long ago), and, while discussing these subjects over dinner, with a nice something to drink, is great! But actually forcing what you do and do not believe down someone's throat is bad business for all involved, and I apologize if I have ever seemed like doing this. However, scientific rights and wrongs are not beliefs, and I more than welcome being called a complete idiot if I have it all wrong.

I wouldn't call it forcing a belief so much as being actively antagonistic. It convinces no one.

Offline Serephino

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2012, 10:22:26 PM »
There's a Bible in most hotel rooms in the dresser.  Should someone sue over that too?  Oh noes, there's a holy book where someone can see it!  I wasn't aware that a book could force someone to read it.  Seriously... unless you're being tied down and preached at, getting up in arms over it is stupid, and this is coming from a non Christian.  It's Christmas, a national holiday.  Banks and the post office and stuff are closed.  Would you rather them be open because how dare a government run thing close down on a religious holiday?  There would be a lot of people really pissed at you for that.  It's annoying, yes, but people want to be with their families.  I get that.

I see this as about equal too giving yourself a heart attack because your burger didn't have the pickles arranged right.  No one is forced to stand there and stare at it.  Don't believe in God?  There is absolutely nothing stopping you from walking right past without looking.  I mean, you do have control over where your eyes go.  If you're driving past, your eyes should be on the road anyway.  I like looking at nice displays.  It's not my religion, but they do a good job sometimes.  It makes people happy, and doesn't hurt anyone more than they see it for a few seconds before looking away.     

Offline Vekseid

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2012, 10:34:04 PM »
Gideons International is where the Bible in every Hotel room thing comes from. Even ignoring that hotels are private enterprises.

Offline Slywyn

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2012, 10:42:49 PM »
I think I can see where they were coming from with taking down the bible in front of the courthouse. For one, it's a courthouse. That's a section of the state. For two, there was a bible very prominantly displayed within a lit box out front(from what I understand of it's placement) the courthouse. A bible is a section of the church. If the two are to be separated, you can't have that sort of thing.

I don't necessarily -agree- with it since it was a monument to someone who I imagine was a pretty decent human being, but I can understand it.

Offline ulthakptah

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2012, 10:48:55 PM »
I doubt they would be making such a fuss if it was a copy of the Iliad...

Offline Slywyn

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2012, 10:56:14 PM »
I doubt they would be making such a fuss if it was a copy of the Iliad...

Unless I'm missing something the Iliad isn't a religious book. It has gods in it but it isn't a holy text.

I could be wrong, but the Iliad I remember is just a story.

And it wasn't just some lady off the street, she was a representative(member?) Of a Separation of Church and State advocacy group. Or something along those lines

Offline Stattick

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #86 on: November 28, 2012, 11:22:43 PM »
Like I said, I am not saying that Creation is right, even if I believe so. I am just saying that Evolution has been pointed out to be wrong a lot. And I would very much like to discuss this with you in a civil manner, without need for insults, and the putting of words in my mouth, in a Thread marked for such a thing, in which you can properly bash me over the head with my ignorance.

Not in a scientifically valid manner it hasn't. Let's put it this way - getting a group of scientists to agree on something is damn hard. It's like trying to get a bunch of politicians to agree on something. Yet when you poll biologists and geologists, only 0.05% of them don't believe in evolution. That's like 150 scientists out of 300,000. To have that many scientists agreeing on something is staggering. I'm not sure that you'd get that high of a percentage on even the physical laws (among scientists that have a relevant specialty, like physics, relativity, quantum mechanics, etc).

Quote
And as for Atheism, I haven't seem them create anything either.


I wasn't talking about atheists. I was talking about scientists. Scientists have created nearly ALL of the technology in the last century. It created the monitor and keyboard I'm using, the internet, and the ability for us to have this conversation. Without science, I wouldn't have the capacity to talk to anyone outside of the town I live in, excepting of course what I sent through the mail. Without science, you and I, if we were to somehow get together to have this conversation and we didn't live in the same town, would have to send out carefully written letters to each other. Careful, because paper and ink cost a lot of money way back when. Postage too. And if we were really lucky, a post might arrive every two weeks because of the dedicated work of the Pony Express. Science is the only reason I'm alive today; I was born with bad tonsils and a propensity to get bronchitis. If it weren't for the antibiotics that science gave us, I probably wouldn't have lived to see my teenage years.

Again, let me stress this: Atheism ISN'T a religion. It isn't a cohesive philosophy. Hell, it isn't a philosophy at all. Religion is many things to many people. It involves a community, common rituals, a subculture, and usually faith and belief in a set of supernatural beliefs. All atheism is, is the lack of belief in God(s).

Also, it might interest you to know that I'm not an atheist. I lean that direction from time to time, but I do have a nebulous belief in the supernatural and the gods. My beliefs lie somewhere between Paganism, Hinduism, and Buddhism, with some skepticism thrown in for good measure. I'm the sort of guy that straddles the line between humanism and mysticism, applying one or the other as seems appropriate to a given situation. I tend to look at problems in light of both sets of eyes.

Quote
Whereas missionaries are all over the world, making it a better place by providing food, Medical expertise, and other such things to places that need it, whereas Christianity inspired men such as Mozart, Beethoven, and Michelangelo, I can't seem to recall one work of art inspired by Atheism. All I can recall is those guys sitting on their asses, laughing at how dumb Christians are. I am not saying that Christianity is the best. It also inspired such bad things as the massacres all over the Middle Ages, Crusades, and just about all the bad stuff in that time period. Science, however, hasn't done much better. It invented lots of bio-friendly crops. It has also developed  Biological weapons. It has also been responsible for good nuclear energy.  I could go on,, and on, and on about all the good and bad things that both religion and science have done for the world, but that would be beside the point. The point is that what the fuck are we fighting about? Nice, fun, healthy discussion is, as I said, fun. If you have to stoop to insulting merely because I am, in your eyes, misinformed, then, my friend, you should have a few history lessons about how good that went by in the past.

I never said that religion didn't do any good in the world. Only that they hadn't invented any technology. I may not have been clear enough when I said that, so that's my bad.

I don't know about you, but that felt pretty insulting to me... I could be wrong, for which you can call me an idiot, but it seemed pretty darn insulting to me...

I didn't intend to insult you. I can see how you could read it that way though. I'm sorry. I should have been more clear.

Offline ulthakptah

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #87 on: November 28, 2012, 11:35:21 PM »
Unless I'm missing something the Iliad isn't a religious book. It has gods in it but it isn't a holy text.

I could be wrong, but the Iliad I remember is just a story.

And it wasn't just some lady off the street, she was a representative(member?) Of a Separation of Church and State advocacy group. Or something along those lines
I would consider Hellenic Polytheist a religion, and while you may think of it as just a story I would imagine that many ancient Greeks considered its events to be fact. There might even be some today, but I don't really know a way to confirm that.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #88 on: November 28, 2012, 11:42:36 PM »
Well, Schlieman's archeological discovery of Troy was led primarily by his belief that the Homeric epics were based at least in geographical fact.

Offline Slywyn

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #89 on: November 28, 2012, 11:43:10 PM »
Stories can be factual.

That doesn't change it from being just a story though. A story about something that may or may not have happened involving some gods that may or may not exist, but a story nonetheless.

It's not a religious codex used in churches/synegogues/mosques/temples/etc.


Offline ulthakptah

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #90 on: November 29, 2012, 12:12:17 AM »
It was written down and read aloud when they were holding festivals to honor their gods. How is that not a religious codex?

Anyway, isn't the bible a collection of stories that may or may not have happened involving a god that may or may not exist?

Offline Stattick

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #91 on: November 29, 2012, 12:25:25 AM »
Oh noes! an open bible in a display case!

Exactly.

Quote
Really don't you think that's an over reaction?

Nope.

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." Thomas Jefferson, on the First Amendment.

By the way, the Supreme Court of the United States of America has repeatedly referred back to the above quote as authoritative in regards to what the intent of the Founding Fathers was. Their direct words, in reference to Jefferson's quote: "...coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured."

In Everson v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court had this to say:  "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."

In Lemon v. Kurtzman, the Supreme Court established the Lemon Test, with regards to whether something violated the separation of church and state: First, the law or policy must have been adopted with a neutral or non-religious purpose. Second, the principle or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion. Third, the statute or policy must not result in an "excessive entanglement" of government with religion.

Now, consider the Bible in the Court house case. Was the Bible there because of a neutral or non-religious purpose? Not likely. Courts have Bibles in them, so people can be sworn in. But the courts don't put those Bibles in big, showy monuments. Did the principle or primary effect advance or inhibit religion? Yes, it did. It advanced Christianity, and by extension, inhibited other religions. It implied that Christianity was more important to that court than any other religion. Lastly, did this result in excessive entanglement of government with religion. That could be argued pro or con. Personally, I'd argue no, because it didn't involve the court directly in any particular religion, but it could be argued that it showed a pro-Christian bias. At any rate, this particular case pretty clearly fails the Lemon Test.

Back to the original topic of this thread, the city of Santa Barbara also clearly failed the Lemon Test originally by allowing a manger scene to be displayed in the public park at the exclusion to any other religions being represented. However, once taken to task for that, the city quickly allowed others to put up displays, so it could be fair. The city itself wasn't paying for these religious displays, but simply allowing them to be put up. And finally, when vandalism and ugliness surrounded the whole thing, the city took away the privilege for groups to put up displays. Then some church groups tried to sue the city, but fortunately, that was summarily tossed out of court.

And yeah, for those that have said so, I agree, the atheist groups were kind of being dicks about the whole thing. But still, it was a better way for them to go about the legal question, rather than suing the city and getting the ACLU involved.

Offline Stattick

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #92 on: November 29, 2012, 12:31:53 AM »
I would consider Hellenic Polytheist a religion, and while you may think of it as just a story I would imagine that many ancient Greeks considered its events to be fact. There might even be some today, but I don't really know a way to confirm that.

If it's important to you, and you think you have a case, then you should contact the ACLU. They love cases like that. Seriously.

http://www.aclu.org/contact-us

Offline ulthakptah

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #93 on: November 29, 2012, 01:08:16 AM »
If it's important to you, and you think you have a case, then you should contact the ACLU. They love cases like that. Seriously.

http://www.aclu.org/contact-us
The thing is I don't care if a copy of the Iliad is on display in a public place. I wouldn't care if it was a Koran or Torah was on display. This isn't about legislature. No laws are going into place. This is just people picking fancy nick knacks to put up as decorations. And that the nick knacks with religious meaning to them are banned from being in a public building is ludicrous.

Offline Stattick

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #94 on: November 29, 2012, 01:15:22 AM »
The thing is I don't care if a copy of the Iliad is on display in a public place. I wouldn't care if it was a Koran or Torah was on display. This isn't about legislature. No laws are going into place. This is just people picking fancy nick knacks to put up as decorations. And that the nick knacks with religious meaning to them are banned from being in a public building is ludicrous.

Well, it's the law of the land here in the US. Maybe you'd get along better if you moved to the UK? They're more accepting of having religious stuff in their courthouses and parks. Hell, they've got a state religion and everything. It even comes in two flavors: High Church for that Catholic feel, and Low Church for that Protestant feel. Hmm.... makes me wonder, with it being a State religion and all... Are the priests' salaries paid by the government, and therefore taken out of the tax revenue?

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #95 on: November 29, 2012, 05:51:38 AM »
I don't believe there are any official groups in the US actively worshiping the ancient Greek gods and avoiding paying taxes because of it.  That's the difference, I think.

Offline Slywyn

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #96 on: November 29, 2012, 06:45:37 AM »
I don't believe there are any official groups in the US actively worshiping the ancient Greek gods and avoiding paying taxes because of it.  That's the difference, I think.

That's kinda what I was trying to get at. I'm pretty sure that there's some obscure religion somewhere that worships superman comics.

That doesn't mean they create a separation of church and state issue, because to 99% of the population, they're just comic books.

To 99% of the population a holy bible is a religious text, and it becomes a problem.

Offline ulthakptah

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #97 on: November 29, 2012, 06:51:36 AM »
Well, it's the law of the land here in the US. Maybe you'd get along better if you moved to the UK? They're more accepting of having religious stuff in their courthouses and parks. Hell, they've got a state religion and everything. It even comes in two flavors: High Church for that Catholic feel, and Low Church for that Protestant feel. Hmm.... makes me wonder, with it being a State religion and all... Are the priests' salaries paid by the government, and therefore taken out of the tax revenue?
Maybe instead I'll just start a cult that worships vending machines. With enough luck maybe it will get so popular people will start banning vending machines from public places.

Offline Stattick

Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #98 on: November 29, 2012, 10:52:33 AM »
Maybe instead I'll just start a cult that worships vending machines. With enough luck maybe it will get so popular people will start banning vending machines from public places.

Yeah, because taking the access to food and beverages out of courtrooms isn't small minded, petty, or mean. Is that your disconnect? Do you think that people are asking to have other people's religions taken out of public places just because they're small minded, petty, and mean? Do you really not understand that to some of us, running across that sort of thing is like a slap in the face? Do you truly not understand that some of us have had horrible, scaring experiences with Christian religion, and want it kept the fuck out of the public places our taxes pay for, which happens to coincide with the separation of church and state?

Offline Beguile's Mistress

  • Time flies like an arrow ~ Fruit flies like a banana ~ Elliquiy's Fair-E Godmother
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Location: Faeleacanvald ~ The Steeler Nation ~ Home of Lord Stanley's Cup 2016 ~ She won't stay throwed! ~ 48\22-5\1\11-5\7
  • Gender: Female
  • Perpetual Notion Machine ~ 'What if...?'
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Christians vs Atheists in California Nativity Debacle
« Reply #99 on: November 29, 2012, 01:12:02 PM »
When we all stop being offended by what another person decides about the existence of a higher power in what ever form your culture, etc., decides to worship or when a person decides there is no higher power to subscribe to we will all be better off.  I don't care if you are an atheist, Christian, Catholic, Jew, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Pagan or any other sect/religion/faith you can name.  I never did care and I hope I never start caring. 

Religion does not abuse people.  People abuse religion.
Faith is not about people.  Faith is about belief in God (for want of any other word).

Faith and religion are constructs not individuals.  Individuals, i.e. people, commit the crimes, insult others, preach hate and make this world a sad place to live in at times.  People can be arrogant and that arrogance gives them the self-proclaimed power to speak for others, God included, and decide for everyone what is right.  The only person who has that right to decide for you is you and the only person you may chose for is yourself.

We all live in this world and we all need to get along and acknowledge the rights of others whether we like them or not.  Someone wise once told me that if there is the chance something you might do will hurt someone don't do it even if they've hurt you in the past. 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 01:13:47 PM by Beguile's Mistress »