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Author Topic: Yet Another Abortion Thread  (Read 6901 times)

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Offline Trieste

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2012, 01:23:26 AM »
As has been said before (a lot), prevention and adoption don't cover every contingency and pregnancy itself has some very real, very scary, and often very long-lasting consequences/side effects. No woman should be forced to go through the trauma of pregnancy against her will. Ever. At all. Period. This is regardless of the circumstances surrounding conception.

I don't know... my thought is that a mother's connection to her child should be so strong that she wouldn't even consider abortion... and if she is then, well...

There are, unfortunately for this theory, people out there who have the maternal instinct of a split pea. I know - I've seen the crime scene photos of the aftermath. -_-

Offline Endorphin

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2012, 04:41:09 AM »
George Carlin clearly makes a lot of salient points in this video. I took particular note of the one about 80% of fertilised eggs being ‘flushed away’. If that statistic is even remotely accurate, it’s quite a blow to the pro-life argument that life begins at fertilisation – which, quite clearly, needs to be qualified.

In any case, I find that the needs of the pregnant mother (father, family etc) are more of a concern than a collection of non-sentient cells that some class as life and others do not, so I strongly support any argument that is based on upholding these values – especially in situations where the pregnancy is unplanned, unwanted, a result of rape, or otherwise threatens potential deleterious consequences to those involved. And I must say that I would like to see more legal consideration for the prospective father(s) in such instances.

Whilst I won’t go as far as saying that anyone is an ‘unfit’ parent, some are definitely more fit than others and can produce an environment which has a higher chance of successfully raising a well-adjusted child who plays a positive role in society. Something that what many people, including myself, view as desirable.

Offline Braioch

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2012, 07:12:09 AM »
Sure some are 'more fit' than others, but last I checked, you're never really fit enough to raise children. It isn't like someone hands you a step by step manual on how to raise children and the expect expenses that in which you will be facing. Really I'd say no one is completely fit to raise children, your children eventually whip you into shape :P

As for Carlin, a pity to have seen him gone, he was rather brilliant and he still manages to send me into a fit of laughter unfit for the wee hours of the morning. Though a few of the stats he threw out I feel the urge to check up on, the rest of the statements he made however I fully stand behind, probably with a smirk on my face.

Fact of the matter is adoption really isn't a good alternative to abortion. If the child is lucky enough to be given to good temporary homes until actually adopted, it still means they're shunted around without any real consistency or structure in their lives. (That's an 'if' I don't need to cite the horror stories that some kids endure in the system that is beyond broken) Not too mention, you're still throwing kids into a system that is overloaded, into a world that has so many children in it as it is. To me that really isn't pro-life, those kids may never have the chances to have a real life in their younger years, if ever, just to rot away in the cracks of the system.

For me personally, from what I heard from my mother, I could have had two other siblings, one older and one younger than I. Both my sister and I fell into a time in her life where she felt that the children being born would have had a stable home, a loving environment, and parents whom would be able to provide for them. She was right. The other two? No, considering the time periods that these children would have been born, my mother would have either been too young, or with the case of the later child, within three or four years would have been in a seriously harsh financial situation and WAYYYY on the outs with what would have been the father.

Her reasons were sound, but as I told her, reasons are inconsequential. In the end, your reasons don't really matter much, as it is your body, your choice, your decision in the end. Reasons only serve to justify where justification doesn't matter to your critics, and are redundant to the people who support you. So really, I don't think discussing the reasons, or the justified reasons, for such a thing have any real point.

Offline Moraline

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2012, 10:27:34 AM »
Love him, hate him, agree with him or don't, Mr Carlin was a brilliant comedian.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2012, 11:39:52 AM »
Love him, hate him, agree with him or don't, Mr Carlin was a brilliant comedian.

The man made you THINK. You didn't have to like him, or agree with him.. but he made you THINK. He challenged the world.. He admitted he had flaws.. I read one of his interviews.. in playboy I think (yeah.. I DO read the articles in them) and he told how much of his own life he screwed up with booze and pills and how he fought to get back off of them. And how much he fucked up his own relationship with his family.

He was crude, crass and sometimes downright annoying.. but he was very honest with himself.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2012, 04:32:01 PM »
I am pro-life.  And I believe in contraception.  If you're going to have sex, but don't want children, then do your best to make sure it won't happen.  But if it does happen, I'd rather (as I cannot force anyone, nor do I wish to) that if you not want the child, you consider adoption.

A lot of the younger pro-choice seem to use abortion as a convenient way to remove a problem.  A human life in the making is not problem.  Human lives are precious.  All life is.  At least to me.

Again, if you want to fuck like bunnies, go ahead, it's a fun recreational pastime (pun intended.)  Just make sure anything unwanted doesn't happen to the best of your ability.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2012, 05:10:19 PM »
In my mind, life begins where you want it to... if you want to have a child, the life begins before conception... if you love the child, then the life begins when you find out you are going to have a baby... if You don't want to have a child so badly that you want to have an abortion, then, in my mind, the life didn't begin at all... all life starts with love, and the commitment that a parent has to his/her unborn child...

Offline Kendra

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2012, 05:59:17 PM »
I grew up in a Catholic home in Ireland, the youngest of 8 children.
Abortion in our household was on a par with my coming out of the closet at one time.
But until it happens to someone you love, for reasons you would not wish on anyone ... then opinions are just that your own opinion.
My family are very pro-choice now and embrace the LBQT community as best they can because of me.

Last month in Ireland a horrific incident occurred, it shouldn't have happened in a developed country but it did.
--> Irish Times Link

There has been an outcry like never before in Ireland as a result, just when the country is preparing to yet again vote on whether to have abortion legalised here or not.
So many young girls, rape victims among others travel daily to England to have the procedure done.

This woman's life could have been saved.

In My Opinion the mothers life is just as important as the babies.
Her body, her decision - though I do also believe that if there is a stable relationship, a loving one - then the partner should be involved in the decision process too.

Offline Endorphin

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2012, 06:03:08 PM »
Sure some are 'more fit' than others, but last I checked, you're never really fit enough to raise children. It isn't like someone hands you a step by step manual on how to raise children and the expect expenses that in which you will be facing. Really I'd say no one is completely fit to raise children, your children eventually whip you into shape :P

I know you're deliberately being a bit facetious here; and I totally agree with you. However, I also want to add that that dogs and rats raise their offspring. And even cockroaches can procreate. Making a baby is not a difficult thing to achieve (for most). The  trick is raising a child in a way that 'fits' our society - something that is a whole lot more difficult to achieve and a lot more valuable when it is achieved.

I'd love to live in a world where abortion isn't required. But let's face it - this is not an ideal world. Sometimes we need to make concessions and agree to things we would like to avoid. Whether or not we are pro-life or pro-choice and agree with the decision that is made, we should agree that we should not villify those people who are unfortunate enough to need to make that decision.

Offline ejohanson

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2012, 06:40:44 PM »
Nearly no-one in these discussions ever talks about their personal experiences. People can be so pro-choice and yet recoil in horror if you ask them what their personal experience with abortion has been. I don't get that. If you're so ashamed of something you can't even talk about it in nearly anonymous circumstances... why would you do it?

I'm 30, I've been responsible for 2 abortions that I know of; one when I was 17, another when I was 19. I paid for them both times, drove my partner, stuck around for after care. I had two 'near misses' as well, at 15 and 25 respectively, where a woman tested positive and miscarried a few weeks afterwards while we were waiting for the appointment.

I always use at least one method of birth control, which is better than I can say for most my friends. Condoms with strangers, but if I've seen the STD test results for someone and they tell me they're on the pill I will skip condoms. Since I have more sex now than I did when I was a teenager, I suspect that the prevalence of teenage pregnancies in my life is a sign that my partners and I have been getting better at using birth control. I know I've probably paid for... between one and two dozen doses of plan B for times when the condom slipped or someone was just nervous or whatever. I'll buy a girl plan B if I just look at her for a long time.

Realistically, my number is probably higher, because most of the people I've slept with are strangers I have no contact information for... but probably not that much higher. I tend to frequent the same spots, and check the same hook-up sites, and no-one has ever come up to me and said "remember me? You knocked me up" or "wanna see pictures of our son?"

Slightly off-topic, but as to STDs other than baby-itis, most of my friends ask me at some point "fuck dude, how many STDs do you have?" None. I have never had an STD, and I get tested constantly. It is partly luck, partly the fact that I actually ask people before I take them home (several people have told me "yes I'm poz but suppressed" or "Yes I have HSV". Yes they were there to hook-up. No they weren't going to tell anyone who didn't ask). I will walk away if someone's genitals look sketchy (which is spurious reasoning, but it isn't a bad thing to trust your instincts), and partly because I really, seriously use a condom every single time I'm with someone I haven't seen a current STD test from. I couldn't give a fuck less how well I know you or how long we've been fucking or how virginal you say you are.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2012, 07:16:07 PM »
I grew up in a Catholic home in Ireland, the youngest of 8 children.
Abortion in our household was on a par with my coming out of the closet at one time.
But until it happens to someone you love, for reasons you would not wish on anyone ... then opinions are just that your own opinion.
My family are very pro-choice now and embrace the LBQT community as best they can because of me.

Last month in Ireland a horrific incident occurred, it shouldn't have happened in a developed country but it did.
--> Irish Times Link

There has been an outcry like never before in Ireland as a result, just when the country is preparing to yet again vote on whether to have abortion legalised here or not.
So many young girls, rape victims among others travel daily to England to have the procedure done.

This woman's life could have been saved.

In My Opinion the mothers life is just as important as the babies.
Her body, her decision - though I do also believe that if there is a stable relationship, a loving one - then the partner should be involved in the decision process too.

A shame.. really. I know when I lived in the republic of Ireland back in the deep dark 80s.. one of the folks my dab worked with needed a type of birth control to regulate her hormones. To them.. she had:
-Find a doctor willing to go against the church and write a prescription
-Find a pharmacist willing to go against the church to order and fill her prescription.

Typically she had to drive to Dublin from Longford to get it filled every time.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2012, 11:34:26 PM »
My stance has always been that when a woman feels confident that she can deliver a child without ridicule, without sacrificing her dreams and her life that society can start to discuss taking abortion off the table.  When the deck is not so stacked then there can be some notion of withdrawing the option.  Until then there is no way I want to see a repeal of Roe v Wade.  I’ve heard the horror stories, seen with my eyes the pictures of what those days were like with back alley abortions and women “taking care” of things themselves.  A fourteen year old girl shouldn't have to bleed out alone because she’s too ashamed to call her mother and tell her what has happened.  Women shouldn't come into the emergency rooms with chemical burns inside their bodies from desperation. 

I am not a fan of abortion.  To me the world would be great if no woman ever felt the need to have one.  We don’t live in that kind of world and taking away an option like that leads to horrific things.  People can blame the woman; can point toward whatever they want.  Someone willing to go to those lengths is crying for help and I’d rather we be able to give them that help than the alternative.

Offline Sho

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2012, 02:21:09 AM »
A lot of the younger pro-choice seem to use abortion as a convenient way to remove a problem.

I usually try to steer clear of these threads (they have a tendency to get heated), but I have to admit...this is an argument that has always bothered me. In my own personal experience, I have never known a woman who lightly got an abortion - the amount of social stigma associated with it today makes it a hard experience for any woman, even one who would be so blase as to have no feelings whatsoever. I usually don't want to be the person who asks for proof, since I think everyone should be able to have their own opinions, but...do you have any proof for this statement? I mean...personally, I've never seen any study that was even mildly unbiased that supported the claim that a lot of younger, pro-choice women (or really, any women) see abortion (which is, mind you, an expensive and potentially dangerous procedure) as equivalent to the use of condoms.

Offline Endorphin

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2012, 03:29:47 AM »
In all of the cases I've known where a girl/woman has had an abortion (which isn't very many, fortunately), it has been an extremely stressful decision that they have agonized over for days or weeks. It is something they have taken very seriously, become extremely emotionally involved with and weighed up the facts for over and over.

I've also watched many of my mates (who are responsible for the other half of the pregnancy) also go through an extremely stressful time as they try to support their partner and convince them that they should make the decision to terminate - a decision which they, as males, have already arrived at almost instantly and now have absolutely no control over or legal recourse whatsoever, but which could have a devastating impact on them for the next 20 years or so.

Granted, people should be more careful when having sexual relations - but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have any options available when it comes to rectifying that situation.

Let's face it: Abortion is a very convenient way to remove a problem. It's not desirable, it's not a nice decision and it's not something you would actively encourage as a hobby or pastime. But, it is available, it is necessary and it does have the potential to save people from ruining their lives over an unwanted child that they can't properly afford to support in a balanced, loving home situation.

Offline Braioch

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2012, 04:52:52 AM »
A lot of the younger pro-choice seem to use abortion as a convenient way to remove a problem.  A human life in the making is not problem.  Human lives are precious.  All life is.  At least to me.

I'm going to need citation on this one, this seems like a generalization that I all to often see thrown out there absentmindedly to justify a pro-life stance. All of the women I have ever known to have an abortion never treated it as a convenient means to solve their problem. All of them came to the decision through a process weighing both sides and being able to deal with possible repercussions later on. Never was it some knee-jerk reaction akin to taking some Midol for cramps and bloating.

I know you're deliberately being a bit facetious here; and I totally agree with you. However, I also want to add that that dogs and rats raise their offspring. And even cockroaches can procreate. Making a baby is not a difficult thing to achieve (for most). The  trick is raising a child in a way that 'fits' our society - something that is a whole lot more difficult to achieve and a lot more valuable when it is achieved.

I'd love to live in a world where abortion isn't required. But let's face it - this is not an ideal world. Sometimes we need to make concessions and agree to things we would like to avoid. Whether or not we are pro-life or pro-choice and agree with the decision that is made, we should agree that we should not villify those people who are unfortunate enough to need to make that decision.

Using dogs and rats is not necessarily a proper comparison in this case. In this case you're talking about an animal (us) that has a much more complicated mind and societal system. (As well as greatly varied in both) They teach their young how to hunt, survive and other things that have been made instinctual with the honing of teaching by example. Human beings have to teach a whole variety of things to their children that are far more complicated and complex that take years to properly get across.

And I don't really know where that second paragraph came from, as I thought I made it rather clear that I am most definitely, wholeheartedly and unflinchingly Pro-Choice. I absolutely abhor vilifying these women and support their decision, whichever they may choose.

Offline Endorphin

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2012, 05:08:32 AM »
That's precisely my point. Hence why I prefaced the paragraph by saying that I agree with you. What I'm questioning is your use of 'you're never really fit enough to raise children', which I totally understand in context but take exception to as it's clear that all animals (including humans) breed, which by definition, means that they are 'fit' to be parents and raise their offspring. Semantics really. There's no debate that with civilized humans, the onus is on us to breed and raise our offspring in a manner that will ensure they assimilate into an established and very complex society.

The second paragraph has nothing to do with your comments. Once again, I support your comments.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2012, 06:20:15 AM »
I'm not sure why the discussion of other animals is relevant, but it seems relevant to note that rats (and mice, also) cull their litters when there is overpopulation or when a female is undernourished. So, essentially other organisms kill their young when they know that there won't be enough food to support a larger population. Soooo, not having enough resources to raise offspring is kind of a huge deal if you want to take a look at the nature model.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2012, 07:07:54 AM »
I usually try to steer clear of these threads (they have a tendency to get heated), but I have to admit...this is an argument that has always bothered me. In my own personal experience, I have never known a woman who lightly got an abortion - the amount of social stigma associated with it today makes it a hard experience for any woman, even one who would be so blase as to have no feelings whatsoever. I usually don't want to be the person who asks for proof, since I think everyone should be able to have their own opinions, but...do you have any proof for this statement? I mean...personally, I've never seen any study that was even mildly unbiased that supported the claim that a lot of younger, pro-choice women (or really, any women) see abortion (which is, mind you, an expensive and potentially dangerous procedure) as equivalent to the use of condoms.

I said 'seem'.  It's anecdotal, I will state that mainly because I went to rather bad high school, about 20 years ago.  And I've kept in touch with a couple of people, and it's still the same thing, kids get pregnant, and then get an abortion when whatever it is doesn't work.  Not to mention that I know know a lot of younger ladies, namely little sisters for about... 10?  12?  people and the casualness about their abortions creeps me out.

Now, I'm not saying all of them do it (or even most), I'm not saying that it's not a hard choice, it's just that the ease of abortions seem to take away the actual emotional impact, especially for the poor communities.

Part of the issue, I guess, is that it's mostly the teenagers that have done it IN MY EXPERIENCE.  Usually in retaliation of something, like anger to parents, or trying to keep the boyfriend, or some other anger management issue, but when they find out it doesn't work, then they consider abortion.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2012, 07:10:35 AM »
I do want to point out that abortions can be extremely painful, so I wouldn't say they could be considered an easy solution.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2012, 07:19:02 AM »
I do want to point out that abortions can be extremely painful, so I wouldn't say they could be considered an easy solution.
Honestly, I think the psychological impact lessens after the first one, and it's really just the local scene.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2012, 07:27:32 AM »
I don't really know that I would like to hear "I have to stop by the clinic and get an abortion, then I have a manicure appointment, then I've got to pick up a bottle of wine for the dinner party" or anything, but I'm not sure that expecting women to publicly beat their breasts and gnash their teeth or something is necessarily a reasonable expectation. It's been said before that you can never really know what's in someone's mind, and that's probably especially true here. It's an extremely private trauma.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2012, 07:42:54 AM »
Honestly, I think the psychological impact lessens after the first one, and it's really just the local scene.

I'm talking about physical pain.

Offline Stattick

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2012, 08:53:00 AM »
Yeah, that's who needs to have more kids: irresponsible teens with anger problems.  ::)

As to the really blase people getting abortion after abortion... fucking let them. I'd much rather let them get abortions then have society deal with the consequences. Have you seen what kids raised in that sort of environment are like, the sort where the parent(s) don't give a flying fuck about their kids? The better ones tend to be pretty fucked up, and the rest tend toward sociopathy.

Offline Torch

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2012, 09:39:17 AM »
It's been said before that you can never really know what's in someone's mind, and that's probably especially true here. It's an extremely private trauma.

Indeed, which is why I take all of the "so-and-so's casual abortion" nonsense as exactly that. Nonsense.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2012, 12:01:47 PM »
Studies seem to indicate women do not view or treat, in large part, abortion as a form of birth control.  Consider the logic behind this decision really.  A woman can go to her pharmacy and pack of pills to take over a month, receive a shot at their doctor that lasts a few months, have an IUD put in and various other non invasive procedures.  Or they can have sex unprotected and HAVE SURGERY.  Women are not stupid.  Also, a second study indicates that women after abortion are more likely to use birth control to prevent pregnancy and slightly more likely to do so than their counterparts who carried the child to term.  Meaning the women who had the abortion do not want a repeat.

Abortion is not seen by women who elect it as a preferred, or desired, form of contraception (Henshaw & Silverman, 1988).

Studies have indicated that while 70 percent of women used no form of birth control before their first abortion, only 9 percent failed to use a contraceptive method after their abortion (Henshaw & Van Vort, 1990).

Baltimore teenagers who chose an abortion were less likely to become pregnant in the following two years than those who had carried their pregnancies to term or who had not been pregnant. They were also slightly more likely to use contraception (Zabin et al., 1989).

The site for reference http://www.plannedparenthood.org/resources/research-papers/emotional-effects-induced-abortion-6137.htm