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Author Topic: Yet Another Abortion Thread  (Read 6898 times)

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Offline Caela

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2012, 01:24:37 PM »
I could tell you about at least five day care centers in one area that refused to hire men because all the parents would take their kids elsewhere were a man working there.  I can't find any references online, but that certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Even if it only happened once (which is untrue), there's precedent for men to stand up and say "bullshit".

Let me give you another example...

A stranger approaches a couple with a small child and compliments them on how cute the child is. 

1.)  The stranger is a woman.  The couple will more often than not smile and take it as nothing more than an innocent gesture.

2.)  The stranger is a man.  The couple will more often than not scowl at the man and treat him like he's some sort of stalker pervert after their child.

Because of this, I pretty much ignore children I don't know altogether whenever I'm in public.  Is it right?  Hell no.

I think the thing with the Daycare centers is, probably, regional but it still sucks that anyone would be treated that way. No one qualified should be denied a job simply because of their sex. If you've got the skills needed you should only loose out on the job to someone more qualified. It's not common in my area, but I have seen centers that have one or two men working in them, though they are typically way outnumbered by the female staff. Most of the parents I have seen at those centers seemed to think having a man around was fantastic for the boys that went there.

As for your example above, anyone that compliments my child gets a smile and thanks. I think it's ridiculous that people treat any man who is good with or likes kids as if he is some sort of potential predator. I think both the men treated this way, and the kids around them, lose out when it happens. I would think too (and am more than willing to be proven wrong) that these would be attitudes that would be hard to find statistical data on simply because most people aren't going to admit to them when asked objectively.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #101 on: November 25, 2012, 02:03:26 PM »
It appears to be a dying stereotype. When I looked for citations, the most recent I could find was from 1988. Anything more recent talked about how gender disparity in child care environments is generally seen as harmful.

On the other hand, to address the women's care centers .... thing, women STILL can't really walk into a doc's office or a hospital and get their lady parts checked out; they are required to go to a gynecologist. Whereas men, when they do have something weird going down with their bits, generally just go to a GP. It's getting better. I am no longer referred to my GYN for a simple yeast infection. However, there was (and still, to a point, is) indeed a need for separate women's care centers. It would be really nice if I could find a GP that was taking patients and could go in for my annual pap smear, for instance. Instead, I have to sit on a GYN's waitlist... and god help the women who prefer a female GYN.

Offline Caela

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2012, 02:16:20 PM »
It appears to be a dying stereotype. When I looked for citations, the most recent I could find was from 1988. Anything more recent talked about how gender disparity in child care environments is generally seen as harmful.

On the other hand, to address the women's care centers .... thing, women STILL can't really walk into a doc's office or a hospital and get their lady parts checked out; they are required to go to a gynecologist. Whereas men, when they do have something weird going down with their bits, generally just go to a GP. It's getting better. I am no longer referred to my GYN for a simple yeast infection. However, there was (and still, to a point, is) indeed a need for separate women's care centers. It would be really nice if I could find a GP that was taking patients and could go in for my annual pap smear, for instance. Instead, I have to sit on a GYN's waitlist... and god help the women who prefer a female GYN.

I read this and have to say that I think we are spoiled in my area. Around here a lot of the GP's will do your yearly pap and only refer you out to a GYN if a) you want one or b) there is something unusual that they think you actually need to see one for. We also have a huge number of female GYN's and one of our biggest groups in the area is exclusively female GYN's. I think a lot of this is easier in cities as opposed to more rural areas and that some of it is also regional as well.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #103 on: November 25, 2012, 02:24:22 PM »
Yeah, I have never had a GP who would do a pap smear or anything, regardless of gender.

As far as the gender of the GYN, I cared when I was younger and first getting jabbed and poked... Now I care less about the gender of the GYN and more about their bedside manner. I have met some atrocious, insensitive female GYNs and some fantastic, very professional male GYNs. I think the perception of female GYN being better is something many women grow out of.

Offline Caela

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2012, 02:36:06 PM »
Yeah, I have never had a GP who would do a pap smear or anything, regardless of gender.

As far as the gender of the GYN, I cared when I was younger and first getting jabbed and poked... Now I care less about the gender of the GYN and more about their bedside manner. I have met some atrocious, insensitive female GYNs and some fantastic, very professional male GYNs. I think the perception of female GYN being better is something many women grow out of.

It sounds so weird to me to hear of GP's that won't do paps. In my area we even have a few that keep their pregnant patients and have privileges at the hospital to come in and deliver them (I'm a scrub tech in L&D at my hospital).

I agree about the perception of women being better GYN's. I think younger girls think that because if the GYN is a woman then she would have gone through the poking and prodding too and should be more sympathetic. Definitely not always the case! I saw a male OB at my last hospital and he was amazing! Where I'm at now, I see a woman and I wouldn't trade her for anything but if I had to choose between them I'd have a huge quandary before me. If my current doc moved for some reason, my second choice would be one of the male GYN's we work with. I do have to admit that I get a different perspective on them too though since I work with them at the hospital.

side rant/ Too many people keep crappy doctors!!! Unless you are bound to them for some reason (only one in the area, only one that takes your insurance etc.) if they are a crap doctor, or just simply won't work with you...get a new one!!!! There is no point in spending years being frustrated and getting poor care when you don't have to. Fire them and find someone else! /rant

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #105 on: November 26, 2012, 01:38:10 PM »
It appears to be a dying stereotype. When I looked for citations, the most recent I could find was from 1988. Anything more recent talked about how gender disparity in child care environments is generally seen as harmful.

No, I can tell you, it is not dying.  It's just not reported that often, because it's now EXPECTED.  Back in '88 it was 'new' and shocking.  Now, it's par for the course.

It's like the American comedian who married Canadian and moved to Canada once said about murders.  In Canada we still report all the murders on the news channels.

Oh, and one more 'unfairness', women reporting sexual harassment at the work place typically (not always) get taken more seriously than when a man does it.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 01:46:17 PM by Chris Brady »

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #106 on: November 26, 2012, 02:13:48 PM »
Oh, and one more 'unfairness', women reporting sexual harassment at the work place typically (not always) get taken more seriously than when a man does it.

I'm not really sure I'd believe that so much these days.  If you have some sort of data to support that, I would very much like to read it. 

Though I think the whole sexual harassment thing is probably best for another topic as it would probably derail this thread from it's original point. 

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #107 on: November 26, 2012, 02:48:29 PM »
I'm not really sure I'd believe that so much these days.  If you have some sort of data to support that, I would very much like to read it. 

Though I think the whole sexual harassment thing is probably best for another topic as it would probably derail this thread from it's original point.

I'm not saying that incidents are always in the woman's favour, just that they're more likely to be investigated if a woman claims it.  There's also an incorrect perception that's still among some men that any sort of that instance, that they should 'suck it up'.

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #108 on: November 26, 2012, 02:51:44 PM »
I'm not saying that incidents are always in the woman's favour, just that they're more likely to be investigated if a woman claims it. 

No, I did understand what you were trying to say.  But in today's day and age, I find it very hard to believe that ANY form of harassment isn't taken very seriously and investigated.  That's why I wondered if you had info to show that's not the case.  As many classes as people are required to take today, to learn about all forms of harassment, I would be hard pressed to believe that one gender was believed more than another.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #109 on: November 26, 2012, 02:59:15 PM »
No, I did understand what you were trying to say.  But in today's day and age, I find it very hard to believe that ANY form of harassment isn't taken very seriously and investigated.  That's why I wondered if you had info to show that's not the case.  As many classes as people are required to take today, to learn about all forms of harassment, I would be hard pressed to believe that one gender was believed more than another.

Part of the problem, is that after a while is it stops being reported to the public.  After the 50th time it stops being interesting, and the news and reporters are always after something new.

That doesn't mean that the incidences stop, it also doesn't mean they increase, either.  It just means less people now, or even care about them.

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #110 on: November 26, 2012, 03:02:18 PM »
Part of the problem, is that after a while is it stops being reported to the public.  After the 50th time it stops being interesting, and the news and reporters are always after something new.

That doesn't mean that the incidences stop, it also doesn't mean they increase, either.  It just means less people now, or even care about them.

Which is why I'm asking if you have some sort of report, or article that you can link me to?  I would be interested to know if that is truly the case or not.  If it is in fact the case, then that is a sad thing indeed and it needs to be brought to the forefront again.  But if it's just personal opinion rather than an actual fact, that's a different kettle of fish.

Offline Torch

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #111 on: November 26, 2012, 03:03:14 PM »
Part of the problem, is that after a while is it stops being reported to the public.  After the 50th time it stops being interesting, and the news and reporters are always after something new.

That doesn't mean that the incidences stop, it also doesn't mean they increase, either.  It just means less people now, or even care about them.

Not everything is reported the "public".

Not everything is fodder for the nightly news.

You only know what you see. You have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. Most companies will operate under a non-disclosure agreement when it comes to sexual harassment, which means NO ONE, not the perpetrator, not the victim, not bystanders....NO ONE is allowed to speak publicly about any alleged incidents.

Unless you have some facts to back up your statements, please stop with the conjecture.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #112 on: November 26, 2012, 03:08:57 PM »
All that aside (and I'm not going to get into the sexual harassment debate), I feel that as a man I have to be very careful about how I am perceived around children and women due to the stigmas that may or may not be outdated.  It's very unfortunate, but if I see a child crying and obviously lost in a store, I will hands down never approach him or her.  I may get the attention of an associate at the store to try and help the kid, but people could very easily misconstrue the help I would try to give, so I don't do it myself.  For the most part, a woman doesn't have to worry about that.  That's really my major point.

Offline Stattick

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #113 on: November 26, 2012, 03:09:08 PM »
"But think of the men!" is just a distraction. The vast majority of discrimination, sexual harassments, rapes, and so forth are crimes against women. For instance, in 2010, only 16% of sexual harassment cases were filed by men, and most of those were men claiming to have been harassed by OTHER MEN. So being charitable, maybe as many as five or six percent of harassment cases were being filed by men against women. CITE As far as women raping men... that accounts for only around half of a percent of all reported rapes. CITE

If someone wants to go and post a thread about male victims of harassment or rape, go ahead. But here, in an abortion thread, it's just a distraction. And not only is it distracting from the topic of abortion, but it ensures that the serious topic of male victimization doesn't get a fair discussion either.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #114 on: November 26, 2012, 03:11:08 PM »
Stattick is correct... we are off track for the topic.  My apologies.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #115 on: November 26, 2012, 04:40:10 PM »
No, I can tell you, it is not dying.  It's just not reported that often, because it's now EXPECTED.  Back in '88 it was 'new' and shocking.  Now, it's par for the course.

It's like the American comedian who married Canadian and moved to Canada once said about murders.  In Canada we still report all the murders on the news channels.

Oh, and one more 'unfairness', women reporting sexual harassment at the work place typically (not always) get taken more seriously than when a man does it.

Except the research didn't just stop; it evolved. There is clearly still ongoing research in the area, so if it weren't dying, there would continue to be papers about it. Please please please understand the difference between peer-reviewed research and the nightly news before you try to comment on said research!

Online Serephino

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #116 on: November 27, 2012, 04:01:05 PM »
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-cdc-abortions-fall-5-largest-drop-in-a-decade-20121121,0,3890778.story

Getting back on topic...

Hey, better birth control is actually reducing the number of abortions.  How about that...

Offline Stattick

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #117 on: November 27, 2012, 04:14:58 PM »
I think the reduction in the number of abortions might actually be a result of Republicans closing and/or cutting off funding for clinics. I'm... not sure. The article seemed rather vague on the causation for the reduction.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #118 on: November 27, 2012, 04:19:19 PM »
"Mississippi had the lowest abortion rate, at 4 per 1,000 women of child-bearing age. The state also had only a couple of abortion providers and has the nation's highest teen birthrate. New York, second to California in number of abortion providers, had the highest abortion rate, about eight times that of Mississippi."

This section from the article makes me think you might be right Stattick.

Offline Stattick

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #119 on: November 27, 2012, 04:22:23 PM »
I've lived in Mississippi. The amount of poverty there is staggering. There's also a lot of people there that don't have reliable transportation.

Offline Torch

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Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #120 on: November 27, 2012, 04:25:12 PM »
I think the reduction in the number of abortions might actually be a result of Republicans closing and/or cutting off funding for clinics. I'm... not sure. The article seemed rather vague on the causation for the reduction.

It's possible, although the birth rate in the US has been falling for years now, so it stands to reason that the abortion rate would follow suit (i.e. fewer pregnancies overall, so fewer live births along with fewer abortions).


Online Serephino

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #121 on: November 27, 2012, 04:35:54 PM »
The article says there could be a lot of factors, so yeah, part of it could be access.  But they're saying there was an average of 227 abortions for every 1000 live births, which is a lower ratio then in years past.  Population would also have something to do with it.  I don't know what the population of Mississippi is, but probably less than California.  But, we're not just talking about Mississippi, but the national average.  The article does say reduction in unwanted pregnancies will lead to fewer abortions, which I very much agree with.

Offline ulthakptah

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #122 on: November 27, 2012, 05:01:21 PM »
Yes abortions are bad and should be something one tries to avoid. Thats why things like birth control and sex education are needed. You would think that people in this day and age would know that anal sex is not a substitute for birth control.

Offline Stattick

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #123 on: November 27, 2012, 05:24:00 PM »
Oh, that must be why there's fewer abortions these days. Anal has gotten very popular.  :D

Offline ulthakptah

Re: Yet Another Abortion Thread
« Reply #124 on: November 27, 2012, 05:27:27 PM »
Oh, that must be why there's fewer abortions these days. Anal has gotten very popular.  :D
Didn't I just say anal sex can still lead to pregnancy?