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Author Topic: Currently, 30 States have put forth petitions to secede from the United States.  (Read 4342 times)

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Offline Stattick

I'd support breaking Texas up into several different states. It would help to kill off the deleterious effect the Texas School Board has been having on the nation's textbooks. It would break up the big block of Electoral College votes that Texas gets. It also makes it easier to divide and concur a red state, which is strongly blue in a few places. It would also pit parts of current Texas against other parts of current Texas as they fight against each other for pork. All in all, I think it would be a good thing for the nation. Probably not such a good thing for Texas or Texans though. Likewise, from a nationalist point of view, I'd support breaking California up into Crazyville California (N. Cali) and Curbstomp California (S. Cali). From the vantage of someone raised in Southern California (Curbstomp), I think splitting the state would ruin Southern Cali though because of water issues though, since Southern Cali pipes in lots of water from Northern Cali.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 03:31:13 PM by Stattick »

Offline LunarSage

None of it is ever gonna happen in our lifetimes, though.  The government can and will physically force Texas to sit down and shut up if it tries that.  This isn't the 1800s and an individual state does not have sufficient willing manpower to physically resist the US military.  Hell, I'd be willing to bet if every red state banded together in this day and age, they'd still get smacked down.

Offline kckolbe

When smaller entities try to break away from larger ones, other countries tend to get involved to help it happen.  Look at how much territory Russia has lost over the years.

Offline TheGlyphstone

When smaller entities try to break away from larger ones, other countries tend to get involved to help it happen.  Look at how much territory Russia has lost over the years.

Who's going to help Texas? The only country I can think of with the ability and will to aid a U.S. secession attempt would be China, and that's an awfully long way for them to project their power- militarily, at least, they could turn the screws on us economically if they wanted to. Russia and about two-thirds of South America might have the will, but not the ability - a lot of European countries have the ability, but they're mostly friendly or neutral to us and lack the will.

Offline kckolbe

Economic pressure can accomplish serious things as well.  My point is that the US is not invulnerable.  I am concerned with the tone this thread is starting to take.  It seems a lot more argumentative than a normal discussion.  I've been trying to keep to actual laws and precedents, but it is becoming more difficult.

Offline KennethNoisewater

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All the bashing aside, doesn't this scare anyone? I'll admit that I didn't vote for Obama, but this? Our 'one nation under god' is dividing, and the sad part about it is that most youths today don't know history well enough to stop it from repeating.

If you look at what Hitler did, he took over the youth and got his army to destroy. I have a friend, whom is almost thirty, who actually told me that she didn't believe that the holocaust happened. I must of just stared at her for a minute without being able to say anything. Add that with the new reports about collage students that don't know much history, unless they are history majors, and I see a scary trend happening.

First, the holocaust didn't happen. Next, the hardships of slaves are never talked about in schools anymore. Then, we were never attacked on our own soil???

Throughout out history, things repeated themselves because people either, didn't learn from before, or weren't told what really happened and repeated it. This uprising, even as impossible as it is, should scare people. This country is going to spit again or fall because it will refuse to join together and work for the greater good.

It will be a sad day when a country that is so nationally mixed falls because of a unwillingness to put differences aside, stop blaming others and take responsibility, and work together for the hope of all young ones that are being born now.

These are very dangerous assumptions that you are making.  If I am reading you correctly you are attempting to draw a correlation between Hitler garnering the young population and Obama getting young people votes.  If so this is beyond foolish to compare a dictator whom from the start was known be a racist and anti-semetic.  Two traits that you can never associate with our current president.  There are no parallels between the two. 

Furthermore to go from denying the holocaust to ignoring slavery to forgetting 9/11 are some very big leaps. This is similar to those morons who think gay marriage is going to lead to people marrying monkeys.  Unfortunately there are a lot of conspiracy theorists out there.  And those that deny the holocaust are exactly that.  They didnt forget or ignore history, they are selecting to act as if it didnt happen and that is for reasons we may never understand (very similar to the conservative population drawing a communistic correlation with Agenda 21.)  Conspiracy theorists who either couldnt get into that nights shufflboard tournament (elderly ultra conservatives) or morons who have smoked pot for too long and think everything is a conspiracy (young ultra liberals).  So no one is forgetting the holocaust.  And yes some elements of history are not being taught very well, and in many cases not being comprehended as well.  Some by choice, and others because of reduced budget cuts and underperforming schools (maybe conservatives should stop slashing school budgets in favor of road construction and military spending and this problem might improve).  But slavery is a part of our culture that will never be lost and a lesson never forgotten.  And as far as 9/11 goes, most conservatives have no right to even sympathize with that (you know the rough neck moron in Alabama who wears the t-shirt "never forget" with a giant American flag on the back window of his truck)  because a majority of those morons spend the other 364 days of the year bashing and tearing apart New Yorkers as a bunch of liberals, libtards, or whatever half ass adaptation of the word they can formulate.  But magically on one day of the year in September they just love New Yorkers, until September 12th rolls around and its back to hating them. 

You are right.  This country is being split down the middle.  And I will admit that my earlier post probably didnt help that cause.  But when half of the country is busy trying to compare socialism, communism, and Obama its a little hard to be united.  Especially when most of those assholes dont even know what true communism and socialism is unless it is defined to them by Michelle Bachmann or Lindsey Graham, whom speaking of needing a history lesson, havent the slightest inclination what it truly is and use the words as scare tactics and buzzwords. 

 If we want to stop the splitting of this country then we need to realize that health care is a right not a privilege no matter what form it comes in; RomneyCare, ObamaCare, or JustMakeSurePeopleCanHaveHealthCare Care. But regardless the livelihood and health of our country should not be a free market for-profit enterprise.  We need to realize that the mass accumulation of wealth while squandering the underprivileged with unfair regressive tax structures and inadequate educational and employment opportunities  is just as much class warfare as asking the rich to pay more.  We must realize that education is more important than a new toll road or an additional fighter jet that will be parked on an aircraft carrier until it is decommissioned.  We need to realize that the most important things we can do is provide those being born now, as you stated, is to provide them with proper healthcare, proper education, and an opportunity at economic mobility.  The same economic mobility that has declined year over year while free market capitalistic profits and wealth accumulation have increased year over year.  We need to realize that the needs of women and old white men are drastically different and the decisions for each of them should not be made for them by the opposite.  We need to realize that just because of one horrific day, immigrants are not our enemies.  Immigrants are the same people that have started countless enterprises that employ millions of people around this country and they are also the same ones that will serve you fast food, clean your toilet, mow your grass, and watch your children-all things that the rest of us are too unwilling to do yet we want to stop those that are willing from doing it.  We need candidates that understand the basic tax structure of this country and how it works, rather than splitting the country into 47% and 53% and still getting it completely wrong about what that means.  We need to stop ignoring climate change, the detrimental effects of suburban sprawl, the need for renewable energy, and the overall need to just do better not because we have to or are scared into it, but because its right.  We need to understand that individualism is not what makes country great, it is collectivism.  And lastly we need to realize that this country does not look like Mitt Romney, Lindsay Graham, Paul Ryan, and Mitch McConell anymore.  This country looks like Barack Obama, Bobby Jindal, Julian Castro, Kasim Reed, Marco Rubio, Deval Patrick, Cory Booker, and Rahm Emanuel.

My apologies for my rant to anyone who made it through the whole thing.  But begging for unity when throwing around names like Hitler to compare or insinuate our current political climate is just downright foolish and represents a complete lack of historical knowledge, hypocritical of what was requested from others.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 08:24:28 PM by KennethNoisewater »

Offline Lux12

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In speaking of this, I heard that Puerto Rico actually voted in favor of statehood recently. Funny since I was saying that we should boot Texas and make Puerto Rico the new 50th. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?

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In speaking of this, I heard that Puerto Rico actually voted in favor of statehood recently. Funny since I was saying that we should boot Texas and make Puerto Rico the new 50th. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?

They did vote in favor of statehood - but it's complicated.

(Source)

A majority of the votes cast were in favor of becoming a state.  However, there was a significant amount of the population (half a million) that didn't vote on that particular issue at all.  Did they not care one way or the other?  Did they think it was a dumb question and things should stay the way they are?  No real way of telling from the results.

Also, the decision to let PR become a new state still has to go through the House and Senate - that's two more Senators and 4-5 more Representatives, and the current 'class' will want to make sure that the 'transfer students' are on the 'correct' side of the aisle.

Offline Lux12

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They did vote in favor of statehood - but it's complicated.

(Source)

A majority of the votes cast were in favor of becoming a state.  However, there was a significant amount of the population (half a million) that didn't vote on that particular issue at all.  Did they not care one way or the other?  Did they think it was a dumb question and things should stay the way they are?  No real way of telling from the results.

Also, the decision to let PR become a new state still has to go through the House and Senate - that's two more Senators and 4-5 more Representatives, and the current 'class' will want to make sure that the 'transfer students' are on the 'correct' side of the aisle.

Oh Lovely, a new partisan clash in the making.

Offline Stattick

I'm not sure what the exact process of becoming a state entails, but I know that Puerto Rico's done it's part (voted to switch from being a territory to becoming a state), and now the ball's in play in Congress. I have a feeling that they'll probably get in too. I think that the Republicans want to try to portray themselves as friendly toward Hispanics, and make friends hoping that Puerto Rican congress critters will caucus with them. My understanding is that on social issues, that Puerto Ricans tend to be pretty conservative. I think that the Republicans think that if they're nice to the Puerto Ricans, that it will help them extend an olive branch to Hispanics in general.

I think that the Democrats will go for Puerto Rican statehood as well, considering that Puero Rico was strongly pro-Obama in the last election. Furthermore, the Republican party has no real strength or power in Puerto Rico, which means independent voices in Congress, ones that won't likely vote in lockstep with the Republicans, even if they happen to be mostly conservative. On the other hand, Hispanics, particularly in recent elections, have been voting overwhelmingly for the Democrats, possibly due to the not so subtle racism that the Republicans have been throwing around.

President Obama has already come out for supporting Puerto Rican statehood. I'm pretty sure that the Democrats will follow the presidents lead. It remains to be seen whether the Republicans will support it as well. They'll have enough votes in the House to be able to block it if they want. So, do the Republicans further risk tarnishing their name with Hispanics by blocking Puerto Rican statehood, or do they embrace them and hope to turn the Puerto Ricans into Congressional allies? I'm guessing that we'll get a mixed bag from Republicans; some will support statehood, and some will be against it and say a bunch of racist stuff (either with the dog whistle, or just blatantly for everyone to hear). I don't know if Puerto Rico will get enough Republican votes to get in, but I'm pretty sure that the Republicans are going to find a way to shoot themselves in the foot on this, and further alienate minorities.

Ironically, in eight to twelve years, it could be the Puerto Rican conservative party (or is it parties?) that might start to expand into the US if the Republicans don't get their shit together. Puerto Rico has several major political parties, and none of them start with a D or an R. Right now, no one that I've talked to seems to know whether the theoretical Puerto Rican representatives and senators will caucus with the Dems, the GOP, or mostly with themselves, swinging from left to right depending on the issue. It could be a real game changer in US politics in the long run. Or maybe in a few years, the native Puerto Rican political parties will get squeezed out by the D's and the R's.

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Oh Lovely, a new partisan clash in the making.

That was about my thought, too.   ::)

Offline Callie Del Noire

I don't know Stattick.. I think the PR parties will DEFINITELY have a hit in their ethnic centers.. and yeah.. a few more seats in the House and 2 in the senate will be VERY potent at this point in time.

I give the GOP a 1 in 5 chance of recovering from their cranial rectumitis to think enough to move down there to try and accommodate things. I suspect the parties in Puerto Rico will be approached by both sides.. but the leadership of the GOP will demand they 'join' with the GOP and play by the parties rules..and folks in the leadership positions will either be pushed aside or accommodated

Offline Lux12

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Indeed. Puerto Rico has held out longer than most other territories and one cannot expect them to just give up their own internal partisan loyalties and interests so easily. The two big parties will have to make very local appeals if they want to have a greater measure of influence over what goes on there.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Indeed. Puerto Rico has held out longer than most other territories and one cannot expect them to just give up their own internal partisan loyalties and interests so easily. The two big parties will have to make very local appeals if they want to have a greater measure of influence over what goes on there.

My understanding is they aren't too particularly happy with Mitt's visits .. or the GOPs attitude in general.

Offline Lux12

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My understanding is they aren't too particularly happy with Mitt's visits .. or the GOPs attitude in general.

Well they haven't been the most sympathetic to the Hispanic demographic  or quick to adopt agreeable stances on issues important to them as of late.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Well they haven't been the most sympathetic to the Hispanic demographic  or quick to adopt agreeable stances on issues important to them as of late.

I think the rabid assertion that if you speak English with an accent that isn't either New Yorker, New Englander or White Southern means you have to prove your citizenship is pissing off more folks than they thought.

I have said it before..I don't want this to be a country where my 8 month old neice in Texas has to show proof that she was born here because mom's family has been working both sides of the US/Mexico border for the better part of 2 1/2 centuries.

Offline Lux12

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I think the rabid assertion that if you speak English with an accent that isn't either New Yorker, New Englander or White Southern means you have to prove your citizenship is pissing off more folks than they thought.

I have said it before..I don't want this to be a country where my 8 month old neice in Texas has to show proof that she was born here because mom's family has been working both sides of the US/Mexico border for the better part of 2 1/2 centuries.

Nor should she have to. For many years people have fought to make sure that it is known that being American is not about being white or the way you look in general. To remind us that this is supposed to be a country for all ethnic groups, creeds, and affiliations. I may not have a loyalty to any government these days or believe in government, but I do believe in that.

Offline Secretwriter

No. Nothing is going to happen. People, from my experience, like to bluster and run their mouths, take action from the anonymity and safety from the internet… but when it comes to actually putting their money where their mouth is they won't.

No one wants to give up the social security they've paid in, risk the chance of losing their homes to the new government, or lose the money they have in the banks to a currency change that no one else will recognize. Or lose their disability checks, food stamps, or anything else. They talk about change but ask them to actually give up their comforts.

The truth of the matter is that when it comes down to it people will be covering their asses and jumping overboard off the bandwagon like rats from sinking ships. 

When people are too lazy to come together to do anything for other causes they 'believe in' they're not gonna do anything for this one.  So we have a bunch of people clicking a button on the net and running their mouths. But it's not just one click that they get; they get unlimited votes and anyone that wants to vote from wherever have internet access in the world.

I see a whole lot of bull dog mouth and puppy dog ass, fingers typing out checks that they can't cash.

Don't forget about the lovely branch of the government that has been making people's lives a living hell since 9/11.  Homeland Security.

Those who seriously do try to do something… we won't have to worry about them long. 

Texas... specifically? It can't patrol it's own Mexican border properly, how can it protect all of them?  This isn't South Park with the fence made of Canadians... :P

Offline Will

They did vote in favor of statehood - but it's complicated.

(Source)

A majority of the votes cast were in favor of becoming a state.  However, there was a significant amount of the population (half a million) that didn't vote on that particular issue at all.  Did they not care one way or the other?  Did they think it was a dumb question and things should stay the way they are?  No real way of telling from the results.

Also, the decision to let PR become a new state still has to go through the House and Senate - that's two more Senators and 4-5 more Representatives, and the current 'class' will want to make sure that the 'transfer students' are on the 'correct' side of the aisle.

It's even less conclusive than that.  It was a two part question.  The first question was to ask if people were content with the current status, and of those that voted, a majority voted no.  On the followup question, which offered three alternatives to the current status, a majority of those who voted chose statehood.  So you're breaking things down into a majority of a majority, which does not equal a majority of total voters.  That's before you even consider the huge number of people who didn't vote.  So yeah, hardly a guarantee of statehood.

Offline kckolbe

My understanding is they aren't too particularly happy with Mitt's visits .. or the GOPs attitude in general.

To be fair, they were fairly angry at Obama's visit as well, though that seemed more a one-time incident as opposed to a prolonged clash.

Offline Callie Del Noire

To be fair, they were fairly angry at Obama's visit as well, though that seemed more a one-time incident as opposed to a prolonged clash.

True, though the vibe I get is that he didn't automatically run over them like Mitt did. I do know there is an undercurrent of discontent at what they see as only 'token attention paid to garner support back in the states with Spanish speakers'

Like they are a spot on a checklist between 'cinco de mayo appearance' and 'promise to remain back adding Cuba'.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:53:38 AM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline kckolbe

I read complaints of shutting down traffic on a large part of the island, some costs for security and other preparations, and the fact that he walked away with over a million in fundraising.  But yeah, the biggest gripe seemed to be that his speech was just too vague and didn't offer solutions to Puerto Rico problems.

Honestly, any group of people that can be critical and a little pissed off at both Democrats and Republicans is a group I want voting.  I hope they are on board before 2016, though I am not counting on it happening that quickly.

Offline Lux12

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True, though the vibe I get is that he didn't automatically run over them like Mitt did. I do know there is an undercurrent of discontent at what they see as only 'token attention paid to garner support back in the states with Spanish speakers'

Like they are a spot on a checklist between 'cinco de mayo appearance' and 'promise to remain back adding Cuba'.

I'm fine so long as they dislike the GOP more.They can at least say that if they're a state they can make the powers that be care. However, the Puerto Ricans haven't exactly been extraordinarily sympathetic to the rest of us and still have some form of notable opposition up until a few decades ago.

Offline Callie Del Noire

I'm fine so long as they dislike the GOP more.They can at least say that if they're a state they can make the powers that be care. However, the Puerto Ricans haven't exactly been extraordinarily sympathetic to the rest of us and still have some form of notable opposition up until a few decades ago.

The GOP won't let them in till they are sure that they are in their pocket.

Offline Lux12

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The GOP aren't everyone and some of are more moderate.