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Author Topic: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...  (Read 6314 times)

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Offline Chris Brady

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2012, 01:07:01 AM »
..The game fights you.

Exalted, Palladium's Heroes Unlimited (more like extremely limited), D&D (3rd ed namely, but a little of 2nd and a LOT of 4th), as a GM I was expecting something else, especially with Exalted, OK, I was expecting what was written on the tin, what I got was...  Nearly unplayable.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2012, 01:18:41 AM »
Yeah, when a game (Exalted 2e) has an Official Errata that is a noticeable percentage of the actual rulebook in terms of relative size, you know you have a problem. The Ink Monkeys do their best, but still...

Offline Lux12

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2012, 04:24:28 PM »
When the DM goes out of their way to make your characters and their skills useless.

Offline Songbird

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2012, 01:44:42 PM »
Ohhh, I have a looong list, but I'll just start with one. ;D

Don't you hate it when a P&P RPG becomes all hack'n'slash without any actual roleplay? It drives me nuts, especially since my favorite class, Bard, is skilled at gleaning information from NPCs. I love talking to NPCs and learning just why the Duke is so hated before racing off to the castle to kill him. It feels as if adventuring is becoming more "kill now, ask questions later" than the other way around. As somewhat who appreciates a good plot, that irritates me to no end. >:(

Offline Tsenta

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2012, 02:17:53 PM »
On the opposite side, when a P&P becomes all about RP and to hell with the systems.  IT'S NOT D&D WITHOUT ROLLS GOSH DARNIT! >(

Offline Songbird

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2012, 03:23:26 PM »
On the opposite side, when a P&P becomes all about RP and to hell with the systems.  IT'S NOT D&D WITHOUT ROLLS GOSH DARNIT! >(

LOL, true, it's good to have balance. :-) One of the benefits of online roleplaying is that you rarely need to strictly follow the original game's mechanics. In a P&P game, though, following the rules is a must, and prevents players from being too invincible.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2012, 03:29:44 PM »
LOL, true, it's good to have balance. :-) One of the benefits of online roleplaying is that you rarely need to strictly follow the original game's mechanics. In a P&P game, though, following the rules is a must, and prevents players from being too invincible.

Depends on what game you're playing, there. In D&D, for example, a highly skilled player with a sufficiently (9-11+) level Wizard can be all but invincible while holding strictly to the letter of the rules, and very, very well protected before that - so it's important to know when to stick with the rules, when to bend them for a good story, and how much of both you and your players can agree on to make everyone happy.

Offline Skynet

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2012, 03:36:32 PM »
Depends on what game you're playing, there. In D&D, for example, a highly skilled player with a sufficiently (9-11+) level Wizard can be all but invincible while holding strictly to the letter of the rules, and very, very well protected before that - so it's important to know when to stick with the rules, when to bend them for a good story, and how much of both you and your players can agree on to make everyone happy.

This last part is the most important.  I can't tell you how many bad and unintuitive rules I've encountered in RPGs that my group house-ruled.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2012, 03:49:22 PM »
This last part is the most important.  I can't tell you how many bad and unintuitive rules I've encountered in RPGs that my group house-ruled.

Very much so. A lot of games have rules that'll crash everything if they're not handled properly...but on the flip side, very little ruins a game as a fast as poorly thought out or ill-considered houseruling. (Not sure which one you were talking about here).

Oh, and to add to the list, while being on-topic:
-When a GM makes spot-rulings against the rules (to varying degrees of sensibility/insanity) and justifies it with 'oh, that's a house-rule I made up', when such a rule was never explained beforehand to any of the players, and usually is never brought up again.

Offline Skynet

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #84 on: November 29, 2012, 03:52:36 PM »
Usually the best way for house rules is to discuss the problem with the players, see if anybody agrees and hear varying opinions.  A GM is like a referee: he's there to help make sense of bad rules by ruling a certain way, but if he makes too many arbitrary and ill-thought out house rules then he can lose his players.  Doubly so if he pulls a new house rule out of thin air to screw over a player.

Offline Songbird

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #85 on: November 29, 2012, 06:48:34 PM »
Depends on what game you're playing, there. In D&D, for example, a highly skilled player with a sufficiently (9-11+) level Wizard can be all but invincible while holding strictly to the letter of the rules, and very, very well protected before that - so it's important to know when to stick with the rules, when to bend them for a good story, and how much of both you and your players can agree on to make everyone happy.

Well said! :D

Usually the best way for house rules is to discuss the problem with the players, see if anybody agrees and hear varying opinions.  A GM is like a referee: he's there to help make sense of bad rules by ruling a certain way, but if he makes too many arbitrary and ill-thought out house rules then he can lose his players.  Doubly so if he pulls a new house rule out of thin air to screw over a player.

Equally well said! :D

That's why the inclusion of a DM/GM is so important in P&P Roleplaying. He (or she) can bend the rules enough to make the game a more enjoyable experience, but he also holds PCs accountable for their choices. It's become a cliche, but the DM really is a god when it comes to the direction of the game and its players. Unfortunately, DMs are human, and like the rest of us they have their flaws, so all too often one finds oneself stuck with a DM who is either tyrannical, biased, ignorant, or a poor storyteller. Having DMed a few times myself, I know that it can be frustrating keeping track of absolutely everything that happens during an adventure, or having the PCs take a route you hadn't prepared for. It's a full time job to keep an adventure cohesive, fun, detailed, and fair.

One thing I hate is when players are not honest about their rolls. It's just so immature and obvious. >:( If you make a bad roll, be an adult and admit it. I'd rather miss the troll than lie about about it.

Offline Slywyn

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #86 on: November 29, 2012, 07:11:10 PM »
I've been reading the comic you guys posted here a while back, and just... lol. It's awesome.

I've only ever played one DnD game(And it was over the internet here at E), and my only quibble that arose from it was someone rolling a needlessly bad character. They weren't useless, just... bad.

Also someone quit after the first turn and that both amused and confused me. xD

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #87 on: November 29, 2012, 07:14:00 PM »
Well said! :D

Equally well said! :D

That's why the inclusion of a DM/GM is so important in P&P Roleplaying. He (or she) can bend the rules enough to make the game a more enjoyable experience, but he also holds PCs accountable for their choices. It's become a cliche, but the DM really is a god when it comes to the direction of the game and its players. Unfortunately, DMs are human, and like the rest of us they have their flaws, so all too often one finds oneself stuck with a DM who is either tyrannical, biased, ignorant, or a poor storyteller. Having DMed a few times myself, I know that it can be frustrating keeping track of absolutely everything that happens during an adventure, or having the PCs take a route you hadn't prepared for. It's a full time job to keep an adventure cohesive, fun, detailed, and fair.

One thing I hate is when players are not honest about their rolls. It's just so immature and obvious. >:( If you make a bad roll, be an adult and admit it. I'd rather miss the troll than lie about about it.

Unless you're playing a game that's designed to have no GM, or no single GM. I've heard of them, though never played one.

Offline Songbird

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #88 on: November 29, 2012, 08:03:23 PM »
Unless you're playing a game that's designed to have no GM, or no single GM. I've heard of them, though never played one.

I've never played a P&P roleplaying game without a DM before. It's almost hard for me to imagine it! ;D

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #89 on: November 29, 2012, 09:12:44 PM »
I've never played a P&P roleplaying game without a DM before. It's almost hard for me to imagine it! ;D

They tend to also be very rules-light systems, and produced by indie RPG companies. Fiasco! is the most famous among them.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2012, 07:44:51 AM »
They tend to also be very rules-light systems, and produced by indie RPG companies. Fiasco! is the most famous among them.

Also Polaris & its supplement Thou Art But A Warrior. I've played Fiasco & TABAW. Fiasco was a hoot & a half; we couldn't finish TABAW. Can't say whether it was just because we were struggling to grok the system or we took too long a break between sessions.

Offline Moraline

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2012, 08:29:59 AM »
From a GM's perspective...

When players insist that dice rolls are needed for everything and they insist on following the rulebooks to the letter instead of listening to their GM.

The GM is God with a capital G in the game. They are the essence and force of everything in the universe, just let them do their jobs and if they suck at it, then so bet it - get a new one.

Major pet peeve... When players lack enough creativity to think their way out a room with a unlocked door because they insist on using dice rolls to do it. (Wet paper bag metaphor)
- Stop trying to roll observations rolls or pick locks or whatever and just turn the bloody door knob you uncreative lack of imagination fools! You don't need dice rolls to resolve everything.

PS: Even if the door was locked, if it's made of thin wood, just kick the f@#ing thing in! Stop trying to make people roll dice for it! I'm pretty damn positive that your 290 lbs 6'6" tall Orc is capable of kicking in a tiny door with little to no effort... I won't make you roll dice for it.. don't make me roll them too.

Player's perspective...

On the same note.. Stupid GM's that ask you to make all those damn observation rolls and everything under the sun for obvious stuff like.. "It was sitting in the top drawer!"  Are you serious GM? When I said.. "I search the drawers" You as a GM could not have figured out that I most likely would have.. you know.. opened the damn drawer? Why the hell do I need to roll for that?!

GM's and Players that insist on rolling dice for every piece of combat....

If the players highly trained hand to hand combat operative gets into a bar fight with some untrained drunkard... please for the love of all things.. don't make me roll dice for it.. not as a GM.. and not as a player..

Is it god-modding for a player to respond to that combat by saying, "GM, can I handle this person easily enough?" Of course it is.. but if the GM says it's alright.. then guess what.. it is alright... DICE ROLLS AREN'T NEEDED ALL THE TIME!  The player should be allowed at this point to use one of his/her fancy kick ass hand to hand combat moves like it's a movie stunt scene if they want to. 

Player should be allowed to say, "Hey, GM.. When the guy takes a swing at me I'll just shove them over into the wall, jump up and doing a flying round house kick to that persons face and knock him out." 

GM should respond, "Hell yeah.. that'd be badass.. Alright.. no problem.. That person is down and out.... moving along then."


In closing...

Stupid ass dice rolls annoy me, both as a player and as a GM.

Lets just get on the with story and/or adventure and feel free to have a little fun and let loose with your fancy abilities once in awhile just for the sake of fun.

Not everything has to be about rules, dice and what the books tell you. If something doesn't make sense in the moment(or in the books) then defer to the GM's judgement and just enjoy the role playing.

Offline Slywyn

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2012, 11:13:32 AM »
Between reading these and reading that comic...

I really want to play DnD now. ><

Offline Songbird

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2012, 11:38:57 AM »
Between reading these and reading that comic...

I really want to play DnD now. ><

Oh, you must! :D It can be confusing to get the hang of it at first, but you'll become addicted in no time! ;D

Offline Slywyn

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2012, 11:44:27 AM »
I really want to. But I'd rather do it online(though IMs or ... a forum, or something) because I don't like doing things in person. ><

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2012, 01:21:15 PM »
Occasionally, you do see 'System' games listed.  I was in one a long time ago, but I know there are still a number of members who actually prefer that method of group RP.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #96 on: November 30, 2012, 03:45:20 PM »
From a GM's perspective...

When players insist that dice rolls are needed for everything and they insist on following the rulebooks to the letter instead of listening to their GM.

The GM is God with a capital G in the game. They are the essence and force of everything in the universe, just let them do their jobs and if they suck at it, then so bet it - get a new one.

Major pet peeve... When players lack enough creativity to think their way out a room with a unlocked door because they insist on using dice rolls to do it. (Wet paper bag metaphor)
- Stop trying to roll observations rolls or pick locks or whatever and just turn the bloody door knob you uncreative lack of imagination fools! You don't need dice rolls to resolve everything.

PS: Even if the door was locked, if it's made of thin wood, just kick the f@#ing thing in! Stop trying to make people roll dice for it! I'm pretty damn positive that your 290 lbs 6'6" tall Orc is capable of kicking in a tiny door with little to no effort... I won't make you roll dice for it.. don't make me roll them too.

Player's perspective...

On the same note.. Stupid GM's that ask you to make all those damn observation rolls and everything under the sun for obvious stuff like.. "It was sitting in the top drawer!"  Are you serious GM? When I said.. "I search the drawers" You as a GM could not have figured out that I most likely would have.. you know.. opened the damn drawer? Why the hell do I need to roll for that?!

GM's and Players that insist on rolling dice for every piece of combat....

If the players highly trained hand to hand combat operative gets into a bar fight with some untrained drunkard... please for the love of all things.. don't make me roll dice for it.. not as a GM.. and not as a player..

Is it god-modding for a player to respond to that combat by saying, "GM, can I handle this person easily enough?" Of course it is.. but if the GM says it's alright.. then guess what.. it is alright... DICE ROLLS AREN'T NEEDED ALL THE TIME!  The player should be allowed at this point to use one of his/her fancy kick ass hand to hand combat moves like it's a movie stunt scene if they want to. 

Player should be allowed to say, "Hey, GM.. When the guy takes a swing at me I'll just shove them over into the wall, jump up and doing a flying round house kick to that persons face and knock him out." 

GM should respond, "Hell yeah.. that'd be badass.. Alright.. no problem.. That person is down and out.... moving along then."


In closing...

Stupid ass dice rolls annoy me, both as a player and as a GM.

Lets just get on the with story and/or adventure and feel free to have a little fun and let loose with your fancy abilities once in awhile just for the sake of fun.

Not everything has to be about rules, dice and what the books tell you. If something doesn't make sense in the moment(or in the books) then defer to the GM's judgement and just enjoy the role playing.

Training.  A lot of the early games have this 'issue', because they were based off war games/simulation.  A lot of the older generation teach the younger what they knew.  Patience and smiles can break it.  And sometimes players like to roll the dice for no other reason than to roll dice.

Also assumptions, human beings in general, will immediately assume that if it's not stated, then it isn't possible.  It is on the GM to make sure that all available details are there.  Which again trains the players into asking questions that you might want asked.

Finally, patience.  Not every one gets the same clues as you might.  What seems obvious to you might not be to everyone else, and as GMs we need to realize this.

Also I personally take exception to being God as a GM.  I am not.  I build the world in broad sweeping strokes, place towns, events (aka Dungeons and/or Adventures as the case may be), make some non player characters, and then I let the horde of cats (aka Players) loose.  And it is on them to do what they want.  I will provide guidance and adjudication as the situation merits, but I run games for people.  I do not run them for myself, I have my personal stories for that.

Besides, players will latch on the strangest NPCs.  I could be here all day telling you tales of how players became fascinated with no name characters that were there for colour, loving them for the weirdest of things.  I personally have learned to go with the flow of it.

In short, as a GM, I am a judge, rules arbiter and world builder, I may seem I have a lot of power, and thus wear the Viking Hat, but I am nothing without my horde, and it's up to me to be fair, impartial and if the case may be, on their side.

I apologize for this bit of a rant, but this is a bit of a pet peeve to me.  And yes, I am likely blowing it out of proportion, but it's to make my point, not to pick on you.  Apologies if it seems that way.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #97 on: November 30, 2012, 04:02:38 PM »
It's not a terrible analogy, but the way I look at it, a GM is a God the way the players are the Priests. The two need each other to have any actual meaning to their titles - priests need something to be a priest of, and a god with no worshipers is a crappy and/or dead god (God Needs Prayer Badly might apply). Similarly, a GM has only the power that the players allow, which can include voting with their feet, so a GM who plays the tyrant guard one too many times or isn't willing to meet the players at some degree of compromise is going to find themselves without any game to run.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #98 on: November 30, 2012, 04:06:44 PM »
At the same time, the term God, usually evokes an image of fire and brimstone, and unyielding mountain.  To me.  And various groups I've run with, which is totally and completely anecdotal.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #99 on: November 30, 2012, 04:18:06 PM »
At the same time, the term God, usually evokes an image of fire and brimstone, and unyielding mountain.  To me.  And various groups I've run with, which is totally and completely anecdotal.

Maybe I'm too influenced by said RPGs, where the Gods actually do need their worshippers/priests, and can't be too arbitrary or unfair lest they lose out to a competing deity. Fire and brimstone are for the other guy's followers, you treat yours nicely if you want to keep them.