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Author Topic: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...  (Read 5631 times)

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Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2012, 10:54:38 PM »
...Players who insist on playing EEEEEEVIL.

...Players who insist on playing EEEEEEVIL and kill every quest-giver rather than do quests.

...Players who insist on playing EEEEEEVIL and use it as a blank check to kick every puppy, eat every baby, and burn every town they meet for giggles.

...Players who insist on playing EEEEEEVIL and complain when their rampant town-burning gets people hunting them.

...Players who insist on playing EEEEEEVIL and think that means 'Rampant, non-stop PvP'.



Guess what alignment I don't allow in any game I run?

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2012, 11:39:14 PM »
Chaotic Neutral? :P

Offline Kathadon

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2012, 12:05:38 AM »
Ugh. I hate Chaotic Neutral. Just call them bat shit crazy and be done with it.

And that is a shame Glyph. One of the most entertaining games I ever played was one were we were all super villians. Not Dr. Doom or Darkseid class super villians, mind you. More like the rob a bank, take over the city's underworld, kill the guy that made you types. Another was a fantasy one in which we worked for the campaign's middle baddie, who was in turn at odds with the other bigger bads and the good kingdoms.

It was a blast. Evil played right can be more fun and thought provoking in a game than the "I am a paladin and will smite the demon who lives in this ruin because... I am a paladin" games. Lot of roleplaying moral conflicts in those games.

We had this scenario play out. How far is a thief willing to go when one of his partners, an evil cleric to an "unjustly" persecuted god, threatens to kill a priest of his god? Does he do something? Does the rebel bandit, who just wants to kill the dick lord who murdered his family, step up and stop his friend even though the same man just saved his life? What if he has to kill him, will he have to fight the whole team too keep it secret? What about the mercenary that just wants to get paid for sacking the temple as ordered?

Ah good times.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2012, 12:19:35 AM »
It was a blast. Evil played right can be more fun and thought provoking in a game than the "I am a paladin and will smite the demon who lives in this ruin because... I am a paladin" games. Lot of roleplaying moral conflicts in those games.

Here's another:

...Players who can't think of any other way to play Paladins.

Please, those aren't 'Paladins', those are one dimensional cut outs.

Offline Kathadon

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2012, 12:37:16 AM »
True.

But the same goes for boy scouts and puppy kicker classes in every game. And someone always wants to play one or the other it seems in my games.

Another one I get all to often that is even better. The player, usually new, that wants to make a clone of their favorite character from books/movies/TV.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2012, 01:14:29 AM »
Here's another:

...Players who can't think of any other way to play Paladins.

Please, those aren't 'Paladins', those are one dimensional cut outs.

We used to joke about those having a light-up belt buckle that flashed:  'L!' ...  'G!' ...  'LG!'

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2012, 02:01:48 AM »
Here's another:

...Players who can't think of any other way to play Paladins.

Please, those aren't 'Paladins', those are one dimensional cut outs.

Still, this is generally a product of the system, rather than the players; lots of problems with Paladins tends to be alignment systems, which in 3.0/3.5 particularly, you have ONE code of conduct in common. When you've got a seven bulletpoint list of 'Unless you act this way, you become less useful than the Fighter', people tend to play the character exactly how that list dictates.

Ugh. I hate Chaotic Neutral. Just call them bat shit crazy and be done with it.

And that is a shame Glyph. One of the most entertaining games I ever played was one were we were all super villians. Not Dr. Doom or Darkseid class super villians, mind you. More like the rob a bank, take over the city's underworld, kill the guy that made you types. Another was a fantasy one in which we worked for the campaign's middle baddie, who was in turn at odds with the other bigger bads and the good kingdoms.

It was a blast. Evil played right can be more fun and thought provoking in a game than the "I am a paladin and will smite the demon who lives in this ruin because... I am a paladin" games. Lot of roleplaying moral conflicts in those games.

We had this scenario play out. How far is a thief willing to go when one of his partners, an evil cleric to an "unjustly" persecuted god, threatens to kill a priest of his god? Does he do something? Does the rebel bandit, who just wants to kill the dick lord who murdered his family, step up and stop his friend even though the same man just saved his life? What if he has to kill him, will he have to fight the whole team too keep it secret? What about the mercenary that just wants to get paid for sacking the temple as ordered?

Ah good times.

Evil can be played right. Just like Good can. Problem is, most people don't. If you're playing a Paladin, you've got a code of conduct which forces you to act like a douchebag who drags down the group to keep your superpowers. And if you're playing Evil, most of the time, people are doing it so they can go 'Huckhuck, I stab the blacksmith and take all his stuff because I'm evil!'. Just like people playing Malkavians tend towards them to play something which'd make the Animaniacs blush.

Hate the game, not the player; if the game didn't punish you for not acting like a Lawful Stupid Paladin, less people would play Lawful Stupid Paladins.

Another one I get all to often that is even better. The player, usually new, that wants to make a clone of their favorite character from books/movies/TV.

Because God forbid that someone new, in a game they don't understand, clings to an archetype they find cool and enjoyable. ;D

Offline Tsenta

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2012, 03:48:58 AM »
What about the age old  "If there's women there I want to do them!" players?  Or better yet, the DMs!  I swear more than half the games I've played that had female players the male DMs tried to hook up with them out-game and dropped the game when they got turned down.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2012, 03:56:58 AM »
Still, this is generally a product of the system, rather than the players; lots of problems with Paladins tends to be alignment systems, which in 3.0/3.5 particularly, you have ONE code of conduct in common. When you've got a seven bulletpoint list of 'Unless you act this way, you become less useful than the Fighter', people tend to play the character exactly how that list dictates.

See this is part of the issue, no one wants to look past the words, and the letter of the law, rather than go with the spirit.

3.x actually got Alignment right.  They said it was more of a personal thing, that in the end, how you played it was as important as following it.  Lawful Good didn't have to follow unjust law systems.  Hell, they could rebel against previously just law systems if the system does more harm than good.

Lawful Good is about Justice, not Law.  (The other way around would be Lawful Neutral, which what most of the horror stories about Paladins were.  They stuck with the Lawful aspect and completely forgot about the equally important part:  Good.)

Hate the game, not the player; if the game didn't punish you for not acting like a Lawful Stupid Paladin, less people would play Lawful Stupid Paladins.

No, in this case it IS the players.  Because they heard 'stories' of bad Paladins so they assume, automatically, that all Paladins will be played that way.  I spent a good three months destroying that archetype in my first 3e game, by making out at least three separate Gods/esses that had Orders of Paladins, and each had different focus, one was anti-undead, to the point where she commanded her soldiers to seek them out first, among all other evils.  Another was anti-Demon/Devil, so on and so forth.

It's kind a like 3.x and then 4e's halflings where everyone immediately assumed that because they weren't fat, useless, cowardly homebodies as per Tolkien that they automatically were 'Kender' and immediately associated the archetype of asshole players to an entire fictional race.  Which is ironic as it sounds like they were blaming the game, for player behaviour.  Yes, Dragonlance said they were kleptomaniacs, but YOU the player didn't have to play them that way...  Because it says so in the book has never been a valid excuse for dickery, no matter what class, race or gender you play.

Because God forbid that someone new, in a game they don't understand, clings to an archetype they find cool and enjoyable. ;D
If they keep playing the same character after several years of gaming, that's when I take issue.

Offline Luna

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2012, 05:34:33 AM »
What about the age old  "If there's women there I want to do them!" players?  Or better yet, the DMs!  I swear more than half the games I've played that had female players the male DMs tried to hook up with them out-game and dropped the game when they got turned down.

Related to this... players who expect their irl relationships with the GM/other players to bleed into the game.

"Wtf, your guy just stood there there while mine got shot in the back! I thought we were going out!"

"Um, no... my guy was half way across the room, fighting off god knows what and you went off by your own expecting me to drop everything and follow you like a puppy dog, even though our characters just met."

"That's it, no ***** tonight."

"Whatever."  :P

Offline Oniya

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2012, 07:07:20 AM »
It's kind a like 3.x and then 4e's halflings where everyone immediately assumed that because they weren't fat, useless, cowardly homebodies as per Tolkien that they automatically were 'Kender' and immediately associated the archetype of asshole players to an entire fictional race.  Which is ironic as it sounds like they were blaming the game, for player behaviour.  Yes, Dragonlance said they were kleptomaniacs, but YOU the player didn't have to play them that way...  Because it says so in the book has never been a valid excuse for dickery, no matter what class, race or gender you play.
If they keep playing the same character after several years of gaming, that's when I take issue.

I particularly enjoyed showing kender-players that 'real thief > kleptomaniac'.  The player was shocked when (after they had 'acquired' things from almost every player except the thief) a ring of giant strength somehow found its way from their pocket to my finger. O:)

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2012, 07:23:16 AM »
Lord almighty I loathe Kender because of those players...

Offline Luna

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2012, 07:31:31 AM »
I used to play with someone who made me similarly hate gnomes, just because he was so freaking obnoxious with them. His favorite character type was a gnome illusionist, and every single one of them seemed designed to be more obnoxious than the last.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2012, 08:12:42 AM »
I used to play with someone who made me similarly hate gnomes, just because he was so freaking obnoxious with them. His favorite character type was a gnome illusionist, and every single one of them seemed designed to be more obnoxious than the last.

 ;D

"The Laughing Gnome" by DAVID BOWIE video [BEST QUALITY] (World of Warcraft)

Offline Luna

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2012, 08:31:27 AM »
I actually like David Bowie... but that gnome has GOT to go...

*squashes gnome*

There... I feel sooo much better now.  :D

Offline KaylaM

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2012, 08:37:01 AM »
…the GM has designated love interest NPCs and is determined to pair up the player characters with them, no matter what.

I had this happen in two different games. In the first, the GM had created a ‘perfect love interest’ character for my PC, who was insanely bland and missable and who I ignored after they were introduced in favour of a completely different character. I didn’t even know they were a love interest until a frustrated GM flailed at me and asked me why I was ingoing them (“Because they’re a bland, uninteresting wallflower who’s barely said two lines”) in favour of the other NPC (“Because they’re interesting, fun and my character hangs around them a lot”)

In the second, well, I don’t know what the GM’s intent was, but the Designated Love Interest NPC came over as a total creep. My character shot them down in flames midway through the game, and the GM was clearly unimpressed. In the end, I told them ICly that the only reason I wanted to see them was because the situation meant they had no option but to work together.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2012, 08:37:40 AM »
I actually like David Bowie... but that gnome has GOT to go...

*squashes gnome*

There... I feel sooo much better now.  :D

"Haven't you got a gnome to go to?"

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Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2012, 11:01:31 AM »
...the players are horrified to find that unpleasant aspects of real life society such as racism, prejudice, sexism and intolerance exist in the GM's game world.  Perish the thought!  So many players seem to want a world full of monsters and magic that's completely devoid of the things they dislike about the real world.  As if the existence of magic is going to somehow make everyone get along.  Note that no one seems to have a problem with an entire society where men are treated like dirt (Drow), but even try and introduce (as a minor adversarial role meant to be overcome, mind you) an NPC bar patron who's sexist towards women and players come uncorked.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2012, 11:14:37 AM »
We once broke a GM who brought in a (well-written) sexist society.  The females in the party decided to cross-dress, and the males gave them tips on how to behave.  The GM lost it when his wife's character acted on the advice of 'Remember:  Every now and then, you gotta "shift".'

I think he gave her and the guy who gave her the advice extra XP for that.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2012, 12:57:04 PM »
See this is part of the issue, no one wants to look past the words, and the letter of the law, rather than go with the spirit.

3.x actually got Alignment right.  They said it was more of a personal thing, that in the end, how you played it was as important as following it.  Lawful Good didn't have to follow unjust law systems.  Hell, they could rebel against previously just law systems if the system does more harm than good.

Lawful Good is about Justice, not Law.  (The other way around would be Lawful Neutral, which what most of the horror stories about Paladins were.  They stuck with the Lawful aspect and completely forgot about the equally important part:  Good.)

No, in this case it IS the players.  Because they heard 'stories' of bad Paladins so they assume, automatically, that all Paladins will be played that way.  I spent a good three months destroying that archetype in my first 3e game, by making out at least three separate Gods/esses that had Orders of Paladins, and each had different focus, one was anti-undead, to the point where she commanded her soldiers to seek them out first, among all other evils.  Another was anti-Demon/Devil, so on and so forth.

It's kind a like 3.x and then 4e's halflings where everyone immediately assumed that because they weren't fat, useless, cowardly homebodies as per Tolkien that they automatically were 'Kender' and immediately associated the archetype of asshole players to an entire fictional race.  Which is ironic as it sounds like they were blaming the game, for player behaviour.  Yes, Dragonlance said they were kleptomaniacs, but YOU the player didn't have to play them that way...  Because it says so in the book has never been a valid excuse for dickery, no matter what class, race or gender you play.
If they keep playing the same character after several years of gaming, that's when I take issue.

Remember, Paladins are a special case. It's not 'They act like Lawful Good characters, therefore they're idiots and are corrupt'. Paladins are Lawful Good, with an additional 'By the way, you have to act like these, and violating these rules make you lose your divine powers' clause. This is the reason Paladins douche it up, not Lawful Good characters in general. Lawful Good characters can party with Evil characters, for example, while Paladins can't without losing their powers, etc.

I think 4e did Paladins right. They were un/holy warriors of
  • with no additional moral complications than any other class, which -severely- helps with not getting the 'I am Good! I am not partner with Evil!' mentality that 3.x encourages Paladins follow. Making 'Orders' of Paladins may certainly help, but then you get a similar issue; you've not made Paladin less cliche. You've made it so there's simply different groups of cliches. Same with the Paladin variants in Unearthed Arcana.


As for the Halflings, there's a little difference there. The game does tend to assume all Halflings go towards being rogues (I've never found people go towards Kender, though. Lots of Rogues I've played with do tend to follow the STEAL ALL THE THINGS deal, though), but unlike Paladin, the game doesn't punish you for not stealing everything by getting rid of your 'Rogue powers' if you don't steal everything nailed down.

...the players are horrified to find that unpleasant aspects of real life society such as racism, prejudice, sexism and intolerance exist in the GM's game world.  Perish the thought!  So many players seem to want a world full of monsters and magic that's completely devoid of the things they dislike about the real world.  As if the existence of magic is going to somehow make everyone get along.  Note that no one seems to have a problem with an entire society where men are treated like dirt (Drow), but even try and introduce (as a minor adversarial role meant to be overcome, mind you) an NPC bar patron who's sexist towards women and players come uncorked.

See, I tend to like dodging this'n, as well. At least, in the snazzy little way Legends of the Wulin handles it. Sexism still exists, considering it's setting (a mixture of Ming, Tang and Qin China) but it doesn't apply to the majority of characters. Women are inferiors in the eyes of men, and social class is heavily enforced, but amongst the Wulin, that's all for naught. Kung Fu and skill determines your worth, not your gender or status outside of the Jianghu (However, if you want, you can accept a Disadvantage or such in the Loresheets for sex, etc. that complicates your life because of your gender or whatever if you really want it to, for example, the classic cross-dressing women in wuxia trying to sneak into sword schools to learn Kung Fu...)

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2012, 10:12:34 PM »
Remember, Paladins are a special case. It's not 'They act like Lawful Good characters, therefore they're idiots and are corrupt'. Paladins are Lawful Good, with an additional 'By the way, you have to act like these, and violating these rules make you lose your divine powers' clause. This is the reason Paladins douche it up, not Lawful Good characters in general. Lawful Good characters can party with Evil characters, for example, while Paladins can't without losing their powers, etc.

No, that's only if your GM is a dick.  Anyone who forces you stick verbatim to the Code listed, without deviation, is making Lawful Good into Lawful Neutral.  A Good God is not going to be an ASS about it, if the Paladin is trying his/her best.  GOOD ALIGNED GODS (Who have Paladins, almost exclusively) WILL understand that mortals are not perfect, and some failure is accepted.  Any GM who decides otherwise hates Paladins and is actively contributing to the Lawful Stupid archetype that the Paladin, who's supposed to be an 'effin' HERO, is an unplayable class.

Yes, in 2e and before, it was a bit horrible in how restrictive it was, but the game gave them some powers that could have been overpowered (No, not when you have Magic Users that CAN STOP FREAKIN' TIME!) so they had to 'balance' it somehow.  And failed miserably.

Hell, if anyone should be forcing their Paladins to fail, it's the Evil D&D Gods.  They won't care if they have a Blackguard in their service, they don't need 'champions' of Evil.  Anyone who stabs a neighbour over a trifle, vandalizes or razes fields and farmlands are doing their work.  And you don't need special powers to do that.

Offline KaylaM

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2012, 10:14:55 PM »
...when the NPCs are the center of the plot and the PCs are along for the ride. Not just the GM's pet NPC who's the center of the universe, but when the campaign revolves around them.

This happened to me in one of the games I mentioned above. The NPC love interest for my character? They were central to the plot to the point where they were more important and had more effect on it then my character did. One of the other PCs (A normal human) had a NPC love interest who turned out to be a super-powered android, capable of pretty much killing anything in the game instantly while the PC watched on. In fact, the entire plot pretty much amounted to NPCs doing things to each other while the PC's killed a few monsters along the way.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2012, 10:40:09 PM »
No, that's only if your GM is a dick.  Anyone who forces you stick verbatim to the Code listed, without deviation, is making Lawful Good into Lawful Neutral.  A Good God is not going to be an ASS about it, if the Paladin is trying his/her best.  GOOD ALIGNED GODS (Who have Paladins, almost exclusively) WILL understand that mortals are not perfect, and some failure is accepted.  Any GM who decides otherwise hates Paladins and is actively contributing to the Lawful Stupid archetype that the Paladin, who's supposed to be an 'effin' HERO, is an unplayable class.

Yes, in 2e and before, it was a bit horrible in how restrictive it was, but the game gave them some powers that could have been overpowered (No, not when you have Magic Users that CAN STOP FREAKIN' TIME!) so they had to 'balance' it somehow.  And failed miserably.

Hell, if anyone should be forcing their Paladins to fail, it's the Evil D&D Gods.  They won't care if they have a Blackguard in their service, they don't need 'champions' of Evil.  Anyone who stabs a neighbour over a trifle, vandalizes or razes fields and farmlands are doing their work.  And you don't need special powers to do that.

Just saying. I agree that ignoring the Code is the easiest way to do things (but then, I don't allow Paladins in my games - I just use Clerics for the Paladin role). But still, just pointing out that three and a half generations of games with rules which demand you act in
  • way will make people act in
  • way. Just like giving people with high Strength big bonuses with two-handed weapons will make people with high Strength more likely to pick up two-handed weapons. It's hard to criticize a player, or a GM for following the rules a game gives you; blame the person who decided 'you have to act like this or become useless', not the GM who doesn't houserule it away or the player who follows the rules.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2012, 11:19:39 PM »
...when the NPCs are the center of the plot and the PCs are along for the ride. Not just the GM's pet NPC who's the center of the universe, but when the campaign revolves around them.

This happened to me in one of the games I mentioned above. The NPC love interest for my character? They were central to the plot to the point where they were more important and had more effect on it then my character did. One of the other PCs (A normal human) had a NPC love interest who turned out to be a super-powered android, capable of pretty much killing anything in the game instantly while the PC watched on. In fact, the entire plot pretty much amounted to NPCs doing things to each other while the PC's killed a few monsters along the way.

So like most oWoD games then?  Where the NPCs drove the metaplot and the Players were along for the ride?   Especially the Werewolf adventures.

Sadly, a lot of people who play Exalted, or at least argue about it online, still believe that, often attributing incidents to the game world, by accepting that the short stories, or comics (depending on which edition) as Canon.  Even when everyone else says "NO THEY AREN'T!", even if the writers themselves say it's not...

Offline Skynet

Re: Don't You Hate it When in an P&P RPG...
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2012, 02:29:01 PM »
I hate it when...

... the DM says what kind of game they're running to a group, they agree, but all make characters completely unsuited to the game.

... a DM who gimps a PC and/or make overpowered encounters/NPCs on the spot as a personal vendetta against a PC.

... players who chronically show up late but never tell the group.