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Author Topic: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay  (Read 8176 times)

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Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2012, 08:23:28 PM »
The problem is you used the words 'You think' which is not your place to say.

If you like, feel free to consider the phrase "[as far as I can tell from what you've said, it seems that] you think" automatically implied anytime I employ this usage. I would think it's obvious from the basic context of conducting a discussion that I am not literally claiming to read your mind.

Quote
I'm discussing the broader topic

Yes, so am I -- would have thought this obvious as well, what with my explicitly phrasing summaries as being about general society -- but it is possible to use specifics as a taking-off point to discuss broader phenomena, you know.

Quote
but I'm willing to accept the basic premise that you didn't intend to make any sort of implication, and agree to disagree on the rest; and then leave it at that.

Sure, works for me.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 08:30:00 PM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline Shjade

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2012, 10:41:13 PM »
The thing is that just because someone hasn't advanced to the point of trying to paw at you, doesn't mean that they haven't crossed a line already.

Presenting your butt to someone and asking them to spank you is over a line, unless you know that person. I might make an exception for something like a play party or a BDSM demo, where the atmosphere is already sensual and somewhat sexually charged. Maybe. Probably not, though; doing that to a stranger is discouraged at the play parties and demos near here.

It's about respect. You can appreciate someone's form and you can even make comments without crossing a line. *shrug*

I have to admit I'm a little confused by your example there.

Asking to (or simply acting as if you are going to) spank someone else that you don't know seems pretty clearly over the line, sure. Asking them to spank you, particularly doing so in that way? That seems more comedic than harassment. Unless you keep going on about it.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 10:42:15 PM by Shjade »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2012, 10:52:51 PM »
Unless you keep going on about it.

Which... he did, according to the blog post. :P

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2012, 12:21:36 AM »
You do not get to make assumptions about what strangers are and aren't okay with re: sex. There isn't even a list of common things that it is safe to make assumptions about. There is no 'reasonable person' standard here, there is only what that particular individual finds harassing. And if you offend someone you don't get to act hurt or entitled about it. Even if you can't understand the other person's thought process on the matter, have the emotional maturity to apologize and move on.

It's simple: my body, my psyche, and my personal space is mine. You don't get to play around in it. In exchange you get to say the same thing about yourself. It's a mutually beneficial system. Consent is important. Context is important. Ignore them at your peril.

Offline Ryuka Tana

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2012, 12:45:15 AM »
There isn't even a list of common things that it is safe to make assumptions about. There is no 'reasonable person' standard here...

"And there's the fundamental problem."

"Given this you should NEVER talk to anyone, ever... because everyone's a stranger whom you know nothing about until you approach them. Even approaching people isn't okay with some people... So, no talking to people... None... Seriously, you can't do it."

"Or is this only regarding sex? That's arbitrary, argue it all you want, it's arbitrary. Should we leave it up to common sense then? No, because there is no common sense, that's essentially what you said, because common sense boils down to a 'list of common things it is safe to make assumption about'. If I had to define it, that's probably the most accurate description of common sense (at least in this circumstance) you can possibly give."

"The argument always becomes two sides: one side that, given freedom, will just choose to be a dick; and the other side, who decides that someone being a dick justifies them telling other people what they can and cannot do. It doesn't, but people don't differentiate between having 'the right' and being 'in the right'."

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2012, 01:42:30 AM »
Given this you should NEVER talk to anyone, ever...

No, what she said was that if the person doesn't want to interact with you, you should be mature and let it go. The circumstances in which this would translate into never, ever talking to anyone would have to be way more specific.

Offline Ryuka Tana

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2012, 01:57:25 AM »
"Except in the part I quoted, where you can make no common assumptions, including whether or not it's okay to even speak to a person. Again, I'm arguing against the argument, not the specific point. Saying we can make no common assumptions means that we cannot assume it's okay to do anything ever, regarding other people. This is the argument I was making before, that some people will just try to make everything seem like sexual harassment."

"Now, though, I'm just cycling back to where I was before."

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2012, 02:00:45 AM »
Except in the part I quoted, where you can make no common assumptions, including whether or not it's okay to even speak to a person.

No, even taking that into account, it does not necessarily follow that this translates into never, ever talking to anyone. It means there are risks in interacting with others. That's not the same thing. Circumstances would have to be much more specific for those risks to necessitate never interacting with other people.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2012, 02:03:34 AM »
Shit happens; live and learn.

Offline Ryuka Tana

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2012, 02:05:28 AM »
Shit happens; live and learn.

"This premise, I accept."

Offline Trieste

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Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2012, 08:24:36 AM »
"And there's the fundamental problem."

"Given this you should NEVER talk to anyone, ever... because everyone's a stranger whom you know nothing about until you approach them. Even approaching people isn't okay with some people... So, no talking to people... None... Seriously, you can't do it."

"Or is this only regarding sex? That's arbitrary, argue it all you want, it's arbitrary. Should we leave it up to common sense then? No, because there is no common sense, that's essentially what you said, because common sense boils down to a 'list of common things it is safe to make assumption about'. If I had to define it, that's probably the most accurate description of common sense (at least in this circumstance) you can possibly give."

"The argument always becomes two sides: one side that, given freedom, will just choose to be a dick; and the other side, who decides that someone being a dick justifies them telling other people what they can and cannot do. It doesn't, but people don't differentiate between having 'the right' and being 'in the right'."

Not sure where you get that. Since you quoted Alice's post here, it stands to reason that you're talking about what she said, and what she said was not "I get to tell you what you can and cannot do" fullstop... it was, "I get to tell you what you can and cannot do as it relates to my personal space". And saying that it's with regard to sex is not arbitrary - sexual innuendo and sexual advances have everything to do with personal space.

If everything you say to another person has to do with sex, then yes, that post can be construed to mean that you should never talk to anyone ever. However, if you are able to approach someone as a person, without bringing sex into it, then that post doesn't really apply.

Further, the post seems to be saying: And if you do approach someone sexually and they get offended, don't get offended that they got offended. Just ... apologize that you offended the person and move on. It's pretty much the same thing as "shit happens". It's just the difference in reaction between "Shit happens but it SHOULDN'T and why do I have to deal with it?!" and "Shit happens... oops, sorry, guess I won't do that again."

It's not as extreme as you think.

Offline Sabre

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2012, 11:21:56 AM »
I've never been to a subculture convention, especially not ones where people dress up as fictional characters, but I've heard plenty about them from people I know who regularly attend them.

Reading Mandy's blog about her experience, I think I can see what was happening.  Maybe I'm wrong since I'm not personally experienced with the world, but here it is all the same.

In the past, comic book conventions (or consumer culture conventions in general) hired professional models to dress up in alluring outfits as nothing more than eye candy for a male audience or potential customers.  Video games, cars, comics and anime, etc.  Even as more and more women began to appear as customers and fans themselves this certain attitude about professional models acting as if they were communal escorts seems to linger.  Maybe it lingers because companies still hire models for that very purpose to help promote and sell their product.

The interviewer (and his followers) seemed too socially awkward to understand the difference between a normal cosplayer and a professional model who came to the convention for money.  Most likely professional models were exactly expected 'to play nice' with otherwise onerous fans.

It seems he was simply an interviewer because of his eccentric personality, which sometimes (barely) hides a rather obtuse and awkward individual, reminding me of some online 'journalists' and personalities that make up for a lack of professionalism and manners for exaggerated and 'outrageous' antics, which may be fine if they were making a fool of themselves but in this case it was at the cosplayer's expense.

Offline Serephino

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2012, 12:56:58 PM »
My opinion certainly won't be a popular one, but....

First of all, I don't agree with blaming the victim in cases of sexual assault and rape.  Regardless of how a person dresses, no one has the right to touch them, and when it comes to sex everyone always has the right to say no. 

However, going to a convention dressed in skimpy outfits where there are going to be a bunch of men, yeah, what do they expect?  Some of them may be dressing just like the character, but can't they make it at least slightly more conservative?  I don't think any woman should have a reasonable expectation of walking around with her cleavage hanging out and not having any man ogle her ever.  Men are going to look, and they're probably going to comment.  If you're the type to be offended by it, rethink your costume choice.

Let me come at this from another angle...  I'm a heavy person, and I'm well aware of it.  Let's say one day I decide to walk around in a tube top, showing off my fat rolls in all their glory.  Even when I dress reasonably people stare and make comments, so I can only imagine how well that would go over.  My feelings are hurt.  I'd be willing to bet pretty much anything that most of you would believe it was my own stupid fault for going out like that knowing I'm fat and unattractive. 

Should the rules be different for an attractive woman who wants to walk around like a two-cent slut?  I think not.  Even when I show cleavage and get stared at I know I don't have the right to complain when people stare.  The obvious solution to that is to buy higher cut shirts.  Touching them is crossing the line, cat calls...  if you don't like it, cover up a little.  It's common sense.   

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2012, 01:09:07 PM »
Should the rules be different for an attractive woman who wants to walk around like a two-cent slut?  I think not.

You're right, they shouldn't. Anyone with enough higher brain function to control what comes out of their mouth - including drool - should know better than to launch verbal assaults at anyone for any reason, no matter what they look like, how they dress, or anything else. With consideration for context, anyone should be free to wear anything they like without having to put up with that kind of bullshit.

Offline Serephino

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2012, 01:44:11 PM »
You're right, they shouldn't. Anyone with enough higher brain function to control what comes out of their mouth - including drool - should know better than to launch verbal assaults at anyone for any reason, no matter what they look like, how they dress, or anything else. With consideration for context, anyone should be free to wear anything they like without having to put up with that kind of bullshit.

In a perfect world, yes, I agree.  I have a crotchety old neighbor who will hit on me if I'm wearing baggy pants and a turtle neck.  It's annoying, sure...

Offline Trieste

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Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2012, 01:50:35 PM »
Okay, nobody makes a guy go up to a woman and say "Hey bitch, nice tits". And because sexual harassment is not just heteronormative, nothing makes a girl go up to another girl and say "Woo, I want to lick you 'till you scream". Nothing compels them to do that. And no matter how many cries of "But look what she was wearing!" will convince me that her bosom leapt out at the person and begged to be ogled, fondled, commented on, or anything else. They're just there. How you react to them is your own deal.

So when you (whoever you might be) end up offending someone by ogling, commenting on, or attempting to fondle a pair of breasts that doesn't belong to you, and you end up offending someone and being told that the behavior is not welcome, take some responsibility for YOUR actions and own up to YOUR fuck-up.

Because it has nothing to do with what SHE was wearing.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2012, 01:52:04 PM »
In a perfect world, yes, I agree.  I have a crotchety old neighbor who will hit on me if I'm wearing baggy pants and a turtle neck.  It's annoying, sure...

Which to my mind puts the whole onus on him to stop being a gross old fool.

Online RedEve

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2012, 02:17:24 PM »
My opinion certainly won't be a popular one, but....

First of all, I don't agree with blaming the victim in cases of sexual assault and rape.  Regardless of how a person dresses, no one has the right to touch them, and when it comes to sex everyone always has the right to say no. 

However, going to a convention dressed in skimpy outfits where there are going to be a bunch of men, yeah, what do they expect?  Some of them may be dressing just like the character, but can't they make it at least slightly more conservative?  I don't think any woman should have a reasonable expectation of walking around with her cleavage hanging out and not having any man ogle her ever.  Men are going to look, and they're probably going to comment.  If you're the type to be offended by it, rethink your costume choice.

Let me come at this from another angle...  I'm a heavy person, and I'm well aware of it.  Let's say one day I decide to walk around in a tube top, showing off my fat rolls in all their glory.  Even when I dress reasonably people stare and make comments, so I can only imagine how well that would go over.  My feelings are hurt.  I'd be willing to bet pretty much anything that most of you would believe it was my own stupid fault for going out like that knowing I'm fat and unattractive. 

Should the rules be different for an attractive woman who wants to walk around like a two-cent slut?  I think not.  Even when I show cleavage and get stared at I know I don't have the right to complain when people stare.  The obvious solution to that is to buy higher cut shirts.  Touching them is crossing the line, cat calls...  if you don't like it, cover up a little.  It's common sense.   


A few things.
Firstly, dressing as the Black Cat and then making the outfit more "conservative" would sort of ruin the point of it all. It'd be like dressing up like Santa without the beard and the red suit. ;)

Secondly, she did not complain about the staring men, she admitted that she had expected some men to ogle her chest. She did have problems with the tone and nature of that interview, which was very derogatory and lacked all respect for her as a person. Just because you wear a costume that reveals a bit of skin doesn't mean you are asking to be treated without a shred of respect.

BTW, one thing you guys might not be aware of, but most of us girls are used to guys of all ages staring at us. I got stares from men of all ages when it was really still very inappropriate (meaning when I was still a high schooler myself). This is not the issue she's complaining about here.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 02:20:04 PM by RedEve »

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2012, 11:22:18 PM »
My opinion certainly won't be a popular one, but....

First of all, I don't agree with blaming the victim in cases of sexual assault and rape.  Regardless of how a person dresses, no one has the right to touch them, and when it comes to sex everyone always has the right to say no. 

However, going to a convention dressed in skimpy outfits where there are going to be a bunch of men, yeah, what do they expect?  Some of them may be dressing just like the character, but can't they make it at least slightly more conservative?  I don't think any woman should have a reasonable expectation of walking around with her cleavage hanging out and not having any man ogle her ever.  Men are going to look, and they're probably going to comment.  If you're the type to be offended by it, rethink your costume choice.

Let me come at this from another angle...  I'm a heavy person, and I'm well aware of it.  Let's say one day I decide to walk around in a tube top, showing off my fat rolls in all their glory.  Even when I dress reasonably people stare and make comments, so I can only imagine how well that would go over.  My feelings are hurt.  I'd be willing to bet pretty much anything that most of you would believe it was my own stupid fault for going out like that knowing I'm fat and unattractive. 

Should the rules be different for an attractive woman who wants to walk around like a two-cent slut?  I think not.  Even when I show cleavage and get stared at I know I don't have the right to complain when people stare.  The obvious solution to that is to buy higher cut shirts.  Touching them is crossing the line, cat calls...  if you don't like it, cover up a little.  It's common sense.   


This makes me sad. You shouldn't for a second blame yourself because other people are insensitive jerks. Offensive, unwelcome comments are violations of your person. And the fault for that lays itself on the people who think that just because you are in a public space your body must be theirs to critique. This goes whether its a woman to a man or a man to a woman (and there is a pervasive myth here that men can't help themselves because they would be appreciative if the tables were turned, which is multiple kinds of bullshit), whether it is about how 'attractive' or 'unattractive' you are. Please don't blame yourself for the stupidity of others. People have eyes and will look, that's kind of what eyes do. However, the same people can have the brains and self control to keep their comments and hands to themselves.

Personally, I get looks a lot. These looks range from desirous to hateful. Dressing and acting as I sometimes do can be very polarizing. But, if a stranger approaches me to tell me that I am so hot it's just as disturbing as when one tosses out some hateful comment about how I don't conform to gender norms. It's unwelcome and there is no sense in which "Oh you deserve it for not conforming to society" or "It's just common sense that you can't dress the way you want and not have people lose control and spout hate speech or squicky pickup lines". If you have a cynical view of mankind, it might be 'common sense' to say it will happen (much like it is just 'common sense' that women who dress that way are asking to be raped), but there is no rubric by which it should happen. Behaviors and biases like these are not changed by sighing, putting up with them, and wearing what society says good people wear.

Offline Moraline

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2012, 10:09:21 AM »
I think we have 2 conversations on the go here.

1) is what happened to that woman.

I think her situation was extreme and uncalled for. The men that approached her went to far.

2) The core subject of the post - Women cosplayers being harassed in general.

This subject breaks down into what is and what is not harassment.

It seems to mean different things to different people. Clearly everyone agrees that hands off/don't touch is the main policy here.

... so the next question is, at what point is looking and/or commenting considered harassment?



Personally, like I said in my previous post.

If I dress like Wonder Woman or in some other tight revealing costume, I expect to get hit on and flirted with as well as get some probably lewd comments.

I expect and I desire it. I know I'm showing off my body. I'm not an idiot. I do it on purpose.

I personally don't draw the line until it becomes incessant from the same person or they continue on and on with comments. A friendly good natured comment on how "HOT" or "SEXY" I am, is a compliment.  If you start following me around and continue to make comments then it's harassment to me.

I dress sexy all the time in every day life and I get comments all the time. I welcome them. I choose to dress this way to feel sexy and to look it. If men didn't notice then it would defeat the purpose of me wearing it in the first place.


As a comment on Serephino's post - I think no one should ever make fun of someone for being overweight, that's hurtful and not meant to be a compliment. Which makes it much different then someone making a sexually suggestive comment towards another. 

However, I understand what Serephino meant (I think), they just simply meant that if you dress to get noticed then your going to get noticed. It's a conscious choice and a person shouldn't cry foul every time someone notices them.

It would be a sad dull world the day a I couldn't be told that I am "hot" because we tell every man that it's harassment to say it.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2012, 10:12:01 AM »
In my opinion, it's the difference between, "Hey cutie" or "Damn you're hot" and "I wanna lick your nipples".

One of those statements is not like the other. >.>

Offline Moraline

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2012, 10:14:33 AM »
In my opinion, it's the difference between, "Hey cutie" or "Damn you're hot" and "I wanna lick your nipples".

One of those statements is not like the other. >.>

I agree with that.

Although If I'm out at a bar and everyone is intoxicated and I'm dressed slutty then the last line doesn't bother me at all. It only becomes harassment to me when they start following me around and saying it.

Context can change it. Just like being at work and a fellow employee says number 2 then they are starting to cross a line.

Social Context is important.

Offline StarcryTopic starter

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Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2012, 03:52:52 PM »
At cons most women know they are gonna get oogled at. It's when people make it TOO obvious that it becomes a problem.

At the cons I have been to people seem easy enough to read. Also in my personal experience; starting the conversation with either guessing who they are cosplaying, commenting on how good the costume is and asking how long it took for them to make is usually the appropriate way to go. What a nice ass or fabulous pair of knockers they have don't really come into it.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 04:01:27 PM by Starcry »

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2012, 04:02:59 PM »
There's a difference between looking & leering, too. Giving a passerby a once-over because you're thinking "wha-hey, she looks fine in that" is one thing, but standing there bug-eyed & locked on her cleavage is something else entirely.

Offline StarcryTopic starter

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Re: Sexual Harassment in Cosplay
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2012, 04:21:46 PM »
I had that when I walked into the RPG room at Alcon. I was friends with the guy in charge of the RPG area and lead me to where they were playing "Maid", since he knows how pervertedly awesome I am and the fact I wanted to play it. Soon as I sat at the table everyone was all O_____O for a good few minutes.

I don't think they'd ever had a big boobed girl want to RP the game before. (I was wearing a black "RPG Villian 'No Morals, No Heart, Slight Rage issues...'" t-shirt. You could see NO cleavage.) My friend had to vouch that I was perverted enough for it. (He told them I did the previous years hentai panel and cosplayed a futa while doing so.) The GM tried explaining the rules but everyone talked over him. Then soon as I started playing everyone suddenly had to leave. T'was quite disappointing to say the least. :(

It didn't bother me too much, because being the size I kinda expect guys and gals to stare at them. (Can't exactly miss them...) It doesn't stop it being annoying when it happens though. I guess I am just too polite to tell them my face is a little higher. >.>
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 04:24:03 PM by Starcry »