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Author Topic: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions  (Read 8617 times)

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Offline MadPanda

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2008, 02:03:17 PM »
Defensive, much?

That wasn't aimed at any side, or any individual.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2008, 02:06:47 PM »
I didn't say it was it just seemed a bit snippy and as though you were speaking to anyone against abortion as idiots. . .I myself don't care because I'm well read on the subject and have written many papers.

Offline MadPanda

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2008, 02:13:33 PM »
No, I'm against idiots in general.  They make me snippy as all get out.

Offline BlackRose

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 02:18:36 PM »
Idiocy is determined by perspective. No matter what you've said or done or learned, anyone can consider anyone an idiot. That doesn't mean they are correct, it is simply their perspective. I too misunderstood your flamatory comment above. It seemed very much so like you were indirectly loud mouthing at anyone who didn't agree with you.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2008, 02:18:59 PM »
Well, I didn't notice any idiocey in the topic either but could have missed.  I hate idiots also.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2008, 02:20:09 PM »
Idiocy is determined by perspective. No matter what you've said or done or learned, anyone can consider anyone an idiot. That doesn't mean they are correct, it is simply their perspective. I too misunderstood your flamatory comment above. It seemed very much so like you were indirectly loud mouthing at anyone who didn't agree with you.

Most definately agree!  This is what I thought at first too!

Offline Sherona

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2008, 02:23:36 PM »
Abortion is a sensitive subject no matter where its discussed at. Pro-lifers have valid arguments that usualy revolve around the ethics and morality of deciding when a Potential human life has Life and thus has the Right to Life the same as a born baby.  Pro-choicers have valid arguments, usually revolving around legalities and the fear of Federal Government being able to control what they do to their bodies.

Its a sticky mess is what it is. My ideas of when something is alive, is far different then someone elses. One might say, the moment its born naturally and can take a breath on its own is life, another might say the moment a sperm cell unites with an egg cell it is life, stil others find a medium of when it can survive outside the mothers womb.

I really doubt that pro-lifers vs Pro-choicer will ever fade. 200 years from now it will still be heatedly discussed, insults will be flung, and hackles will be raised. Its unfortunate yes, but that is how it is. Because it is such a personal discussion.

Offline Greenthorn

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2008, 02:24:21 PM »
*ponders*

Should there be a law that women cannot get hysterectomies, or breast enhancements...or that all men must be circumcised?  Or should our bodies be our bodies...for us to choose what to do with them?

The right to choose.  

It's what makes us all human, the intelligence to choose what is or is not best for our own selves.  And in a topic like this, no one is "right", so therefore the all encompassing right to choose should be a happy place for everyone, dontcha think?

Edit: If I am a pro-choice so be it, but on a side note I am Roman Catholic and am against abortion...but I would not dare expect others to accept my own beliefs.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 02:26:32 PM by Greenthorn »

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2008, 02:25:19 PM »
Have you noticed that terms pro-life and pro-choice aren't opposites?  The correct terms would be anti-choice and pro-choice, but that wouldn't put the warm fuzzy spin on it *sigh*

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2008, 02:27:17 PM »
Nice try, Greenthorn, but there is no way to please everyone on this topic because those who don't believe in abortion feel that the baby has a choice in there too.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2008, 02:27:46 PM »
I agree with you that no one is right; however, I also believe that all men should be circumcised. Haven't you even seen an uncircumcised penis? They're downright frightening!

I SINCERELY hope you're kidding :P

Offline Greenthorn

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2008, 02:28:31 PM »
But the point is...we can each have our own beliefs on it...but should we allow a government to choose that belief for us?

Offline Sherona

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 02:34:16 PM »
Have you noticed that terms pro-life and pro-choice aren't opposites?  The correct terms would be anti-choice and pro-choice, but that wouldn't put the warm fuzzy spin on it *sigh*

I had actually not thought of it that way. That is just the way I have always heard it termed on the news and such.

I would like to say I was not promoting EITHER side....I try very hard not to promote either side because that just generally generates nasty remarks :P Like GT I do not feel it is my place to force my own beliefs on anyone else :)

Offline BlackRose

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2008, 02:37:45 PM »
I agree with you that no one is right; however, I also believe that all men should be circumcised. Haven't you even seen an uncircumcised penis? They're downright frightening!

One word...

Suckerfish


Offline MadPanda

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2008, 02:48:25 PM »
When I started the thread, I wasn't trying to push any opinions either. I wanted to see how people here felt about the issue of Virginia saying the ban is unconstitutional, while the Federal government says it isn't. Of course, things quickly fell from such lofty hopes of a discussion on the legal part of it to just abortion in general.

Here's half of the problem: law is the art of taking shades of grey and distilling them into a black-and-white division.  No matter how finely you narrow the focus, no matter how carefully you define matters...you still end up with borderline case.

Tragedy, according to Nietsche, is the collision between two equally compelling 'right's.  Which is what we have here.


Offline Sherona

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2008, 02:49:29 PM »
Here's half of the problem: law is the art of taking shades of grey and distilling them into a black-and-white division.  No matter how finely you narrow the focus, no matter how carefully you define matters...you still end up with borderline case.

Tragedy, according to Nietsche, is the collision between two equally compelling 'right's.  Which is what we have here.




COuldnt have said it better.

Offline MadPanda

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2008, 03:24:12 PM »
On the matter of idiocy...

If you've studied the matter, and thought about it both outside an echo chamber and away from groupthink, faced the long and short term consequences of your decision, and are willing to shoulder the burden of those consequences...then you're not an idiot.

Needless to say, out in my neck of the woods (and everywhere else, too) I hear a lot of idiots--by which I mean folks who will insist that it's all 'A' or 'Not-A' but who won't walk a mile in someone else's moccasins, nor consider the costs of their almighty opinion.

Case in point: brother of a friend, staunchly pro-life.  Won't have kids.  Won't adopt kids.  Doesn't want to consider rape, incest, or medical exemptions 'because it's denying the child a chance'.  Refuses to let his tax dollars fund, say, prenatal care for underprivileged mothers...let alone education.

He's an idiot.

Credit where it's due: his wife is a very nice woman who more than makes up for his loud-mouthing by her actions...and she is not an idiot.

Offline Hunter

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2008, 04:30:02 PM »
I'm only going to say one thing about the subject.

You don't want you uterus legistated?  And now you know how I feel about you trying to take away my guns.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2008, 04:36:23 PM »
For everyone else...you are overlooking the obvious.  The vast majority of late-term terminations are done for the health of the mother.  We are NOT talking 'oh, I don't want to have this child'.  We're talking 'the child will be stillborn and to carry the pregnancy to term means that the mother is likely to die'.  Or 'carrying this child to term may result in complications resulting in sterility'.

This is not a cut and dried issue.  It never was.

Do a little research, not by listening to the advocates for one side or another, but maybe pay attention to the medical community on the subject, yeah?  Or is it too 'elitist' to actually look at the facts instead of loud-mouthing?

True but a child doesn't have to be carried to term with the last several decades and the advances in neonatal care would allow the child a chance to survive even at seven months gestation of twenty-eight weeks. So unless a child is actually stillborn and simple tests could tell that this procedure may not make any sense save in very odd cases.

As for Virgina its simply a matter they don't allow for if a procedure started as something else and turned into an illegal abortion, if they change the law it would be upheld most likely.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2008, 04:37:46 PM »
I'm pro-choice, but also pro - doing all that's possible so that women wouldn't need to decide to do an abortion.
That includes:
 - contraception
 - sexual education
 - having good orphanages
 - encouraging adoption of orphans
 - help for poor families
 - preventing home violence
 - changing negative attitudes towards single mothers
 - good schools and childcare facilities available
 - efficient laws towards alimony
 - fighting rape
All those things can prevent an unwanted pregnancy or encourage the pregnant person not to abort.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2008, 04:38:17 PM »
1.  My uterus can't shoot you dead.

2.  Don't be melodramatic... no one is trying to take your guns.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2008, 04:39:05 PM »
*giving Celestial Goblin a great big hug*

Very well said.

Offline MadPanda

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2008, 04:44:14 PM »
I'm pro-choice, but also pro - doing all that's possible so that women wouldn't need to decide to do an abortion.
That includes:
 - contraception
 - sexual education
 - having good orphanages
 - encouraging adoption of orphans
 - help for poor families
 - preventing home violence
 - changing negative attitudes towards single mothers
 - good schools and childcare facilities available
 - efficient laws towards alimony
 - fighting rape
All those things can prevent an unwanted pregnancy or encourage the pregnant person not to abort.

...in other words, NOT being an idiot.

Offline Ariabella

Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2008, 04:46:13 PM »
But....but....but...idiocy prevails in society! Which explains why I don't like most people I meet in person, lol.

Offline MadPanda

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Re: Virginia strikes down ban on late-term abortions
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2008, 04:47:28 PM »
And that, m'dear lady, is why I am a cranky Panda.