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Author Topic: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?  (Read 3578 times)

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Offline StattickTopic starter

Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« on: October 08, 2012, 11:40:15 PM »
Just wondering. Wait for the poll.

Offline StattickTopic starter

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 11:46:55 PM »
Me, I'm an American moderate (in other words, I'd be called a conservative in Europe), with some liberal leanings.

Offline Mr Self Destruct

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Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2012, 12:00:32 AM »
I'm a conservative that leans toward the right.  But your poll choices are flawed, as they're limited to the European definition of these terms. 

We're American, aren't we?

I'm a conservative because I believe in Constitutionally limited government, the Bill of Rights, and freedom.  I utterly oppose big government and its fiscally unsound spending (in the form of Bailouts and foreign aid in the form of Fast and Furious) and the idea of my country being indebted to foreign countries that utterly hate our way of life.  One of these days, China is going to come calling on the substantial amount of money we've borrowed from them.  And when we can't pay...what then? 


Offline StattickTopic starter

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2012, 12:20:32 AM »
But your poll choices are flawed, as they're limited to the European definition of these terms. 

On the left side of the answers is what we call it in the US. In the parentheses, what most of the rest of the first world calls these positions. I included them so non-US members of E would be able to answer the poll if they wanted to, without getting confused by what we call things here in the US.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2012, 12:24:04 AM »
Not sure how far I'd rate myself. You guys'd probably know a bit better than me - I'm guessing a rather hefty liberal (I'd legalize most, if not all drugs for private consumption and regulated by state, legalized prostitution, euthensia and a less stigmatized stance on suicide, completely open up homosexual marriage to all, stem cell research a massive green light, among other things).
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 12:27:29 AM by Vanity Evolved »

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2012, 12:25:43 AM »
thing is... not everyone on this site is american, about 70%-60% US on here.
most of the other 30-40% are european

Also dark clown China controls about 30% of our debt the other 45% is all privately owned, and the last 15% is owned by other countries. it does not hold all of it, it is only the biggest sole debtholder.

The chinese leadership also knows that their economy would collapse if they come calling on the US. what they use it for is leverage in trade relations and minor political concessions here and there in extange for forgiving chunks of debt.
For example there is a reason we haven't wrenched North korea out of existance yet, China likes the way things are on the Korean Pennsula.
They are also using it as leverage to keep us from putting a base in Tiwan I think, dispite how much they beg for it, and even offer to pay us for one.

Offline StattickTopic starter

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2012, 12:31:56 AM »
But your poll choices are flawed, as they're limited to the European definition of these terms. 

I edited the poll for you, so you can go vote now.

Offline Mr Self Destruct

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Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2012, 12:39:03 AM »
Based on the choices listed, I'd have to with Conservative (though the term 'radical' is rather misleading...everyone who feels strongly about something can be considered radical).

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2012, 12:46:39 AM »
thing is... not everyone on this site is american, about 70%-60% US on here.
most of the other 30-40% are european

Also dark clown China controls about 30% of our debt the other 45% is all privately owned, and the last 15% is owned by other countries. it does not hold all of it, it is only the biggest sole debtholder.

The chinese leadership also knows that their economy would collapse if they come calling on the US. what they use it for is leverage in trade relations and minor political concessions here and there in extange for forgiving chunks of debt.
For example there is a reason we haven't wrenched North korea out of existance yet, China likes the way things are on the Korean Pennsula.
They are also using it as leverage to keep us from putting a base in Tiwan I think, dispite how much they beg for it, and even offer to pay us for one.

They are holding it over our heads fr two specific reasons.

Korea like you said, they don't want a unified and empowered Korea. You can bet the Koreans took ALL sorts of notes with the German reunification. When, not if..when, North Korea finally implodes economically they want us to stay out of the pool and have first call on manipulating the newKorean state to THEIR liking

The second and more important one is this. Taiwan.  Within the next two decades, and I'd say in less time than that.. I'd say as soon as oh 8 years.. China WILL assert sovereignty over their 'Rogue Province'. They have spent the last 15+ years planning on how to deal with he Pacific fleet. The DAY they think they can handle it, will be the day Taiwan gets told their terms. Till then the debt is leverage and after then it is to be surety we don't get involved or take sanctions when the take Taiwan

After that? I think they will try to do their version of Japan's co-prosperity sphere and lock us out of Asia and make it ALL their playground.

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2012, 12:48:53 AM »
Based on the choices listed, I'd have to with Conservative (though the term 'radical' is rather misleading...everyone who feels strongly about something can be considered radical).

Radical by European Standards.
I'd say I'd like to take a leaf out of modern german economics myself, concidering they are one of the major pillars propping up the EU economy while Spain, Greece, and Italy are crumbling.

Also we seem to be on the same page a lot Callie

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2012, 12:55:20 AM »
Radical by European Standards.
I'd say I'd like to take a leaf out of modern german economics myself, concidering they are one of the major pillars propping up the EU economy while Spain, Greece, and Italy are crumbling.

Also we seem to be on the same page a lot Callie

Some areas. I think we might vary on some issues but I have learn from you comments as well as others. I know my POV isn't the same as others. I try to see what problem others have with a policy.

Mostly I'm a Goldwater (modern) Conservative, though I disagree with his insistence on state level vs federal level on some issues but I have to admit I'm looking back in time over the gap of the civil rights era

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 01:15:57 AM »
Some areas. I think we might vary on some issues but I have learn from you comments as well as others. I know my POV isn't the same as others. I try to see what problem others have with a policy.

Mostly I'm a Goldwater (modern) Conservative, though I disagree with his insistence on state level vs federal level on some issues but I have to admit I'm looking back in time over the gap of the civil rights era

I don't know what I am really looking at the politi-space chart I'm somewhere between Clinton and Regan on the chart.
We'd probably have some stuff to disagree over, but the stuff that comes up lately we seem to be on the same side.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2012, 01:21:33 AM »
What do the Europeans call the folks that we'd call 'radical conservatives'?  (Not that I think there are any here to worry about voting numbers.)

I think I'm probably Liberal by American standards.

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2012, 01:29:31 AM »
Americans?

Offline StattickTopic starter

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2012, 01:34:02 AM »
What do the Europeans call the folks that we'd call 'radical conservatives'?  (Not that I think there are any here to worry about voting numbers.)

I think they call them fascists.

Offline Lilias

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 01:41:08 AM »
What do the Europeans call the folks that we'd call 'radical conservatives'?

Americans?

Or nutjobs. With some (or a lot, depending on the case) overlap. Some even use the terms interchangeably.

With my life experience in two European countries, I fall comfortably into the Liberal bracket by American standards.

Offline StattickTopic starter

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2012, 01:43:27 AM »
Woohoo! We have our first liberal.  XD

Offline Vekseid

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2012, 02:24:23 AM »
I'm a conservative that leans toward the right.  But your poll choices are flawed, as they're limited to the European definition of these terms. 

We're American, aren't we?

I'm a conservative because I believe in Constitutionally limited government, the Bill of Rights, and freedom.  I utterly oppose big government and its fiscally unsound spending (in the form of Bailouts and foreign aid in the form of Fast and Furious) and the idea of my country being indebted to foreign countries that utterly hate our way of life. 

Lots of people from outside the US here. I agree that it's a flawed poll, though.

Quote
One of these days, China is going to come calling on the substantial amount of money we've borrowed from them.  And when we can't pay...what then?

It does not work like that.

The US government finances debt through a number of means, but the primary two are via 1) Borrowing from the social security trust fund, and 2) Selling treasury bonds.

US cash outstanding is also quite a lot of money, but that's what the economy runs with.

The first is a concern mostly because of the 'Social Security is going Bankrupt!!!" trolls. The actual reason for Republican arguments to break social security benefits is so that that fund can continue to be raided for revenue.

The second is the treasury markets, which, along with cash reserves as a function of their own currency manipulation policies, make up the majority of US debt that China owns. Most (if not all) countries have these - the government in question auctions bonds of varying value, and the auction is won by the bidder who offers to pay the lowest interest rate. These can be traded on the open market.

When they are initially sold, they are sold with vary maturities - 1 year, 3 year, 5 year, 10 year, 30 year bonds, etc. You can sell them back beforehand, and the government can opt to buy them back beforehand, but China can't go to the US and just demand that we honor immature securities.

China has to dump them on the market to get rid of them, and they have to sell them at a price someone else in the world is willing to buy. They'd make a blip in the yield, sure. But China would lose hundreds of billions of dollars to spite the US for a few weeks. The US government would just hold off on selling new treasuries for a short while while the markets stabilized after China shot itself in the foot to spit in our face.

It'd be worse for China if they unloaded their cash reserves. The last thing China wants is a weak dollar. The Chinese people do - they want and deserve to be able to buy more goods. But that means more of those goods would have to come from outside China.

There's no 'doom!' here. There are issues with China, but China has no way to actually break the US, other than the way it already is - mass media influence (Which of the 'big four' has agreements with the Chinese Communist Party? Hint: It's the name of an animal), massive espionage operations, and of course its policy of economic manipulation to prevent free trade. But the Republicans point at the debt China holds (which they'll claim doesn't matter as soon as they hold the presidency) instead of any actual issues.

And somehow manages to convince people that China can just walk over to the Fed and demand a return on immature bonds.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2012, 02:27:17 AM »
As usual Veks, you bring some interesting info to the table, thanks for clearing it up for me.

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2012, 02:40:33 AM »
There is an other way, although unlikely that China could break the US economy. Stop buying new bonds. Granted, it wouldn't be likely to ever happen, but if they did the US would have a serious problem.

Also, the poll is flawed in it's terminology as well as it's choices. You claim the European would call their far left liberal, while in fact in nearly all European countries liberal stands for proponents of the free market. Also, if we use purely conservative - liberal distinction, communists are conservatives, not liberals. I mean communism is the opposite of any form of liberalism, socially, economically or politically.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2012, 03:09:26 AM »
Radical liberal, perhaps even with a socialist streak by U.S. standards...as Katataban was on to.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 03:31:36 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2012, 04:15:40 AM »
Okay. I live in a country with some 25 active political parties ranging from conservative Christian to libertarian to UFO nuts and even a pirate party, who unfortunately did not support my plan to let criminals be keelhauled.

It's impossible to make a category system in which everyone feels they can fit, unless you make a few billion categories. Now for certain paradox computer game I'm currently modding on I'm working on I'm making a cube like three axis divide: Economic, social/civil and political/governmental.

Now using these axis three very distinct oppositions arrive.
1 free market / planned economy ( with interventionism, state run capitalism, controlled market, being some of the steps in between)

2 social reactioranism / free choice (conservatives and progressives being in between these)

3 full state control / no government (with various yet unnamed steps in between)

Now even with these distinctions I have not captured all the issues but I believe most are confined within.

A few examples of political ideologies placed along these lines.

Communists (planned economy, social conservatism, full state control)
Socialists (state run capitalism, social progressive, heavy state control)
Social democrats/labour (interventionism, social progressive, medium State control)
Liberal democrats (guided free market, social progressive, limited state control.)
Religious democrats ( guided free market, social conservatism, heavy state control)
Liberals ( free market, social progressive, limited state control)
Anarcho liberals (free market, free choice, no state control)
Libertarians ( free market, social conservative, no state control)
Anarcho socialists (planned economy, social progressive, no state control)
Reactionaries (protectionism, social reactionarism, heavy state control)
Fascism (protectionism, social reactionarism, heavy state control)
National socialism (state capitalism, social reactionarism, full state control)
Theocratic (state run capitalism, social conservatism, full state control)
Neo populism (which ever get's votes, which ever get's votes, which ever get's votes)

And these are just the examples I've researched so far. Guessing there are a few more. I'm currently working out a four axis system, to include religious tolerance, but There's still no 4 dimensional display mechanism.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2012, 04:23:23 AM »
What do the Europeans call the folks that we'd call 'radical conservatives'?  (Not that I think there are any here to worry about voting numbers.)

I think I'm probably Liberal by American standards.

Something like "far-right social conservatives" - "far-right" to distinguish them both from more ordinary paternalist thinking and, on the other hand, fascist ideas. The more colloquial word that's around would often be just "neo-cons" though that's not really precise. In actual politics, (U.S. style) neo-cons and radical social conservatives often seem to join forces.


By the way, some within the group that tried (and near succeeded) to assassinate Hitler in July 1944 came from a movement that (before Hitler had come to power)  had called itself radical conservatives. The July 20 group were anti-Nazi and generally not antisemite, or only marginally so, and wanted a quick peace with at least the Western allies, but they believed firmly in a conservative order. Though I think many of them did see democracy as a positive thing, unless it "went out of hand".
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 05:03:39 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2012, 05:04:13 AM »
In most countries they are called the religious right, I think. SGP in holland, Party for bible abiding Christians in Germany. To be honest, very few people take them seriously. In the Netherlands there are a few enclaves of 'throwbacks' as they are most commonly known here. Ultra conservative Christians, who refuse television, inoculations, women's rights, and make a strong case for pro life nonsense. They make up between 1and 1.5 percent of the voters, but their political push is a little bit bigger, because they all vote whereas national voting statistics are at 60%.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal?
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2012, 05:15:54 AM »
Okay. I live in a country with some 25 active political parties ranging from conservative Christian to libertarian to UFO nuts and even a pirate party, who unfortunately did not support my plan to let criminals be keelhauled.

It's impossible to make a category system in which everyone feels they can fit, unless you make a few billion categories. Now for certain paradox computer game I'm currently modding on I'm working on I'm making a cube like three axis divide: Economic, social/civil and political/governmental.

Europa Universalis addicts unite!

Though been preferring CKII lately >_>

Regarding constructing a better poll, I think we can make better categories, e.g.
Burke Conservatives
Paleoconservatives,
Neoconservatives,
Randian Libertarians
Libertarian Socialists
etc. to cover a broader base.