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Author Topic: Liberty 2012  (Read 2356 times)

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Offline elone

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2012, 11:19:08 PM »
Another part of the Constitution the Tea Party would like to change. From a local newspaper in Virginia.

"The June 26 meeting of the 99th District Tea Party in Lively drew a pair of Republican heavy hitters: Attorney General and gubernatorial candidate Ken Cuccinelli and Scott Lingamfelter, current state delegate and candidate for lieutenant governor.

Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli was one of the first to file an action against the Affordable Health Care Act when it was signed into law by the President.

Before getting into the Supreme Court case, Cuccinelli noted that the only real checks on the courts are Congressís authority to eliminate lower courts and to be extremely acute when approving nominations for judgeships. He said he would like to see the law changed to require judges to be reappointed rather than appointed to life terms on the bench."

Another Tea Party gem:

Ballot Box to Bullet Box?

The key part:

"We have a chance to fight this battle at the ballot box, before we have to resort to the bullet box. But that is the beauty of our second amendment right. I am glad all of us enjoy our firearms for hunting, but make no mistake, that was not the intent of the Founding Fathers. Our second amendment right was to guard against tyranny."

Got to love it, shoot them if we lose.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 11:20:17 PM by elone »

Offline Stattick

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2012, 12:41:05 AM »
"We have a chance to fight this battle at the ballot box, before we have to resort to the bullet box. But that is the beauty of our second amendment right. I am glad all of us enjoy our firearms for hunting, but make no mistake, that was not the intent of the Founding Fathers. Our second amendment right was to guard against tyranny."

Got to love it, shoot them if we lose.

Wasn't it Sarah Palin and Glen Beck over on Fox News that started with the drumbeat of "shoot them" a few years back? Well, to be fair, they stopped with that sort of rhetoric once Democratic Senator Gabrielle Giffords got shot in the head.

Offline Serephino

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2012, 12:59:24 AM »
What really gets me is that if I, a private citizen, say anything like I'd very much want to shoot candidate x if he/she were to get elected, I'd be in some serious hot water.  What the hell...  I could just be saying it out of frustration and not really meaning to do it, it wouldn't matter.  That didn't sound like that woman was venting out of frustration...

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2012, 08:46:50 AM »
Teens for Obama - Barack Obama

Let's Do It Again - Teens in Orlando Making a Difference!!!

Let me guess, these teens are not worthy of the same respect because they are 'Obama-worshipers'.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2012, 09:54:57 AM »
This is kind of off topic to the video but I'm going to post it anyway: I'm really embarrassed by some of the posters in this thread. While I think that voting for Romney would be completely nonsensical if only for the fact that he changes positions every five minutes, I can refute the candidate and the party without aiming my attacks and sarcasm at a poster who disagrees with me.

I don't have to agree with Dark Clown - in fact, I really, really don't - but the level of sarcasm and snide smugness is really sickening. That last post by MasterMischief does little other than throw DC's words back at him from a thread that was angry, dirty, and antagonistic. Just because we can't delete our posts in P&R for integrity's sake doesn't mean we shouldn't understand when unwise words should be set aside and the discussion should move on. And don't get me wrong: it's not just MasterMischief who's behaving embarrassingly. I'm seriously too put off by the tone to want to agree with some of these posts, even though my political views line up. It's not funny. It's not achieving anything. It's kind of asinine. Sometimes it's downright mean.

Hemingway and Moraline's posts addressed the video and the party ... that's pretty much how it should stay, in my opinion.

That's about all I have to say about that.

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Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2012, 10:40:03 AM »
Teens for Obama - Barack Obama

Let's Do It Again - Teens in Orlando Making a Difference!!!

Let me guess, these teens are not worthy of the same respect because they are 'Obama-worshipers'.

Completely uncalled for. 

If the subject cannot be discussed civilly, without the snide remarks and sarcasm directed at other members, this thread will be locked.   We are all adults here, I think it's time everyone starts acting like it. 

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2012, 10:59:30 AM »
I apologize, Dark Clown.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2012, 12:02:39 PM »
We don't need slick videos and tired rhetoric.  What we need, as a nation, is a calm, rational co-examination of the facts in America today.  The facts are (to me, at any rate, rather self-evident:

1) We are in an economic crisis.  Measure it by unemployment, by the lack of economic growth, by spiraling debt levels.
2) Contrary to conservative rhetoric, this crisis is not caused by the rich not being rich enough.  Corporate profits and the share of wealth held by the upper class are at or very near all-time highs.  If the rich being richer led to prosperity, we'd be there.  It would look like 1965.  So the major talking points of the Right--the rich not being rich enough, more tax cuts, etc.--hold no water.
3) Contrary to liberal rhetoric, this crisis is not caused by the government not being big enough and not spending enough money.  The government is currently spending about a third more money than it gets by taxes.  Monetary policy is so loose as to be a joke that stopped being funny long ago. 
4) The main proximate culprit is free trade.  Decades ago, someone got the bright idea that foreigners selling goods in America was a right rather than a privilege.  Thus opened the door to American workers competing against foreign slave labor.  The virtues of competition were extolled, without regard for the other side of that coin: competitions have rules.  It's not every person for themselves.
5) Another major, less spoken of cause is oil depletion.  To keep America growing requires cheap energy.  The price of oil has tripled in the past decade.  Price increases are how shortages are manifested in market economies.

So the issue isn't "reclaiming liberty."  Slick videos aren't going to bring back manufacturing to America, nor put the tens of billions of barrels of oil back into the ground necessary for $1.59 a gallon gas and fins on cars to return. 

Here's a challenge for Dark Clown (and the other neoconservatives here): how about some fact-based, numbers-driven arguments?  Try making an argument with cites and facts and figures to support you.  Prove to us that the problem is that Bill Gates and George Soros and T. Boone Pickens aren't rich enough and that the American worker is overpaid.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2012, 12:16:17 PM »
Well said oldschool, we don't always agree about issues or the conditions.  I would however use folks like Gov Romney and the Koch Brothers as your examples. Gates, and your other examples at least do SOME philanthropic acts.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2012, 01:02:08 PM »
We don't need slick videos and tired rhetoric.  What we need, as a nation, is a calm, rational co-examination of the facts in America today.  The facts are (to me, at any rate, rather self-evident:

1) We are in an economic crisis.  Measure it by unemployment, by the lack of economic growth, by spiraling debt levels.

Private debt is at a six-year low.

Quote
3) Contrary to liberal rhetoric, this crisis is not caused by the government not being big enough and not spending enough money.  The government is currently spending about a third more money than it gets by taxes.  Monetary policy is so loose as to be a joke that stopped being funny long ago. 

And yet spending is down.

If the top 5% of the population is earning 25% of the income and only making up for 15% of the spending, and GDP growth is less than 10%, then somehow, someway, that excess 10% needs to find its way to the bottom 95%. There are many ways this can happen, but right now, investment isn't happening.

Quote
4) The main proximate culprit is free trade.  Decades ago, someone got the bright idea that foreigners selling goods in America was a right rather than a privilege.  Thus opened the door to American workers competing against foreign slave labor.  The virtues of competition were extolled, without regard for the other side of that coin: competitions have rules.  It's not every person for themselves.

This is a bogeyman. Eliminate Chinese currency manipulation and the losses due to our current healthcare system, and we'd be fine. Maybe we need a small flat tariff, but more as a general encouragement of local production and stability rather than an impediment to globalization per se. Right now we have too many people in power who think that the solution is "Cut American wages by 20%" rather than "Deflate the value of the dollar by 20%".

Quote
5) Another major, less spoken of cause is oil depletion.  To keep America growing requires cheap energy.  The price of oil has tripled in the past decade.  Price increases are how shortages are manifested in market economies.

Graph the per capita annual use of oil for the US.

Yeah, we still have people buying 3mpg trucks and bragging about it. That won't last forever.

Quote
Here's a challenge for Dark Clown (and the other neoconservatives here): how about some fact-based, numbers-driven arguments?  Try making an argument with cites and facts and figures to support you.  Prove to us that the problem is that Bill Gates and George Soros and T. Boone Pickens aren't rich enough and that the American worker is overpaid.

I highly doubt a single member of this forum is a neocon. Dark Clown has shown active distaste for social welfare programs, for example.

Offline Mr Self DestructTopic starter

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Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2012, 01:10:48 PM »
We don't need slick videos and tired rhetoric.  What we need, as a nation, is a calm, rational co-examination of the facts in America today.  The facts are (to me, at any rate, rather self-evident:

1) We are in an economic crisis.  Measure it by unemployment, by the lack of economic growth, by spiraling debt levels.
2) Contrary to conservative rhetoric, this crisis is not caused by the rich not being rich enough.  Corporate profits and the share of wealth held by the upper class are at or very near all-time highs.  If the rich being richer led to prosperity, we'd be there.  It would look like 1965.  So the major talking points of the Right--the rich not being rich enough, more tax cuts, etc.--hold no water.
3) Contrary to liberal rhetoric, this crisis is not caused by the government not being big enough and not spending enough money.  The government is currently spending about a third more money than it gets by taxes.  Monetary policy is so loose as to be a joke that stopped being funny long ago. 
4) The main proximate culprit is free trade.  Decades ago, someone got the bright idea that foreigners selling goods in America was a right rather than a privilege.  Thus opened the door to American workers competing against foreign slave labor.  The virtues of competition were extolled, without regard for the other side of that coin: competitions have rules.  It's not every person for themselves.
5) Another major, less spoken of cause is oil depletion.  To keep America growing requires cheap energy.  The price of oil has tripled in the past decade.  Price increases are how shortages are manifested in market economies.

So the issue isn't "reclaiming liberty."  Slick videos aren't going to bring back manufacturing to America, nor put the tens of billions of barrels of oil back into the ground necessary for $1.59 a gallon gas and fins on cars to return. 

Here's a challenge for Dark Clown (and the other neoconservatives here): how about some fact-based, numbers-driven arguments?  Try making an argument with cites and facts and figures to support you.  Prove to us that the problem is that Bill Gates and George Soros and T. Boone Pickens aren't rich enough and that the American worker is overpaid.

Here's some fact based rebuttal to your arguments.

Firstly, this is about reclaiming liberty.  President Obama has broken the law, on more than one occasion. 

Charge 1: By-passing Congress to make governmental appointments
Charge 2: Violating the separation of church and state
Charge 3: Limiting freedom of speech
Charge 4: Soliciting foreign campaign contributions, which violates electoral law

These are outrageous abuses of power by a man who sits in the highest office in the land and should conduct himself with all the dignity required of such a position.  He should have made sure that his campaign contributions were above reproach.  There should be NO doubt as to the validity of his contributors as American citizens, but the fact of the matter is, he can't solicit enough donations from within his own country.  The American people are the ones who have had to deal with his policies, and have had to suffer through his 'hope and change'. 

I agree wholeheartedly with you about being in an economic crisis.  But the government regulations on business and free trade haven't helped.  Jobs have left our country in record numbers, despite Obama's campaign promise to crack down on companies that outsource jobs overseas. 

The man and his policies have failed.  Period.  He had his chance, and he's saddled us with incredible debt, a health care reform that destroys our health care system, and has weakened us as a world power (no links here, just look at all the devastating Muslim protests around the world...and we're supposed to believe they came from a Youtube preview of a movie?). 

He has failed.  It's time for someone else to take office.  Our other choice is Mitt Romney.  The left has blasted him again and again, but the fact of that matter is this...he deserves a chance to prove his naysayers wrong.  Obviously, not everyone will be happy.  But his tax plan is clear and sound, he demolished Obama in the Denver debate, and he's ready to lead.  That's what we need.  A leader.  Not a teleprompter.

And this isn't about the rich not making enough money.  But regulating the private sector as heavily as this administration has has prevented growth.  Those with the money make the jobs.  That's the truth of a capitalist society.  That capitalist society has made our country the super power that it is today.  America is responsible for 25% of the world's GDP!  That alone proves that our economic system is the greatest in the world.  That's how these millionaires and billionaires have made their fortunes.  Who are we to fault them for their industrious nature?

Master Mischief, no hard feelings.  Politics tends to make everyone upset.  It's the nature of the beast, unfortunately.

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2012, 01:20:29 PM »
And how will Mitford the Mormon create those precious jobs? His resume speaks for him. Closing down plants, outsourcing, bankrupting businesses for insurance money?

Is Obama perfect, hell no. In fact I'd love to see him leave, but not at the cost of having Romney turning my homeland into a dystopia.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2012, 01:48:08 PM »
Charge 1: By-passing Congress to make governmental appointments

The link provides no evidence of the claim. Could you point me where lower-level judicial appointments are mandated by the Constitution?

Of course, prior presidents have done the same. It's just that we currently have an opposition party abusing filibuster, and a spineless coward for the head of the Senate. Until very recently anyway.

Or maybe it's because the one holding office happens to be black.

Quote
Charge 2: Violating the separation of church and state

News flash for the misogynist: women's contraception is about more than just stopping babies from happening. Even if it wasn't, it has no bearing on the separation of church and state.

Quote
Charge 3: Limiting freedom of speech

Wow, look at how unbiased the source is here! As if free speech zones are new to this administration.

Quote
Charge 4: Soliciting foreign campaign contributions, which violates electoral law

The Republicans would never stand for such a thing!

Quote
These are outrageous abuses of power by a man who sits in the highest office in the land and should conduct himself with all the dignity required of such a position.  He should have made sure that his campaign contributions were above reproach.  There should be NO doubt as to the validity of his contributors as American citizens, but the fact of the matter is, he can't solicit enough donations from within his own country.  The American people are the ones who have had to deal with his policies, and have had to suffer through his 'hope and change'. 

I agree wholeheartedly with you about being in an economic crisis.  But the government regulations on business and free trade haven't helped.  Jobs have left our country in record numbers, despite Obama's campaign promise to crack down on companies that outsource jobs overseas. 

And Romney is going to do better? He's promised to take care of China just as outsourcing has moved to the rest of Asia for the most part, and is beginning to pick up in Africa. It strikes me as sickly cynical, on top of it all.

Quote
The man and his policies have failed.  Period.  He had his chance, and he's saddled us with incredible debt, a health care reform that destroys our health care system,

Interesting that this creep doesn't actually cite where any of this supposed stuff is. It starts off with a picture of the Constitution, spews some fearmongering, and cites nothing.

Quote
For those who might doubt the nature of this threat, I suggest they consult the source, the US Constitution, and Bill of Rights. There you can see exactly what we are about to have taken from us.

Nothing but a demagogue.

Quote
and has weakened us as a world power (no links here, just look at all the devastating Muslim protests around the world...and we're supposed to believe they came from a Youtube preview of a movie?). 

Basically the muslim protests are stirred up by Imams and other various religious leaders who pick an issue of some sort and drive their crowd into a frenzy. The Youtube video is just 'an excuse'. It's a form of dickwaving by people who have a little bit of power over a larger number of highly desperate, sad individuals.

Quote
He has failed.  It's time for someone else to take office.  Our other choice is Mitt Romney.  The left has blasted him again and again, but the fact of that matter is this...he deserves a chance to prove his naysayers wrong.  Obviously, not everyone will be happy.  But his tax plan is clear and sound, he demolished Obama in the Denver debate, and he's ready to lead.  That's what we need.  A leader.  Not a teleprompter.

The only way Mitt Romney's tax math works is to eliminate the mortgage interest deduction.

That would be political suicide for any congressman who voted for that.

Quote
Those with the money make the jobs. That's the truth of a capitalist society.

Hell no. Those with a need for something make jobs for those willing to provide it. That's the truth of economics period. Whether you try to enforce communism on someone or not.

Quote
  That capitalist society has made our country the super power that it is today.  America is responsible for 25% of the world's GDP!

And when the top tax rate was 94%, America was responsible for more than half the world's GDP!

The United States once outproduced the entire rest of the planet, combined.

We can do so again.

But if it happens, it won't be because Americans decided that the rich need to get richer. It will be another transformation of society akin to the rise of the middle class that proved Marx wrong on a very fundamental level.

Quote
That alone proves that our economic system is the greatest in the world.  That's how these millionaires and billionaires have made their fortunes.  Who are we to fault them for their industrious nature?

Have you ever met the sort of people who run casinos?

You can certainly call them industrious. But it's not hard to feel morally superior to the sort of person who will smile as elderly patrons gamble away their retirement in diapers.

Yeah, some people earned their wealth. We don't fault them. There's a need for people who can manage large quantities of resources. On the other hand, just because someone has a billion dollars does not make them 'industrious', much less 'faultless'.

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2012, 02:01:06 PM »
Oh yes, and putting contraceptives into healthcare plan is an increase in the seperation of church and state.

I mean no one is forcing you to take them, they're only making sure they're their for those who need it.

And if the argument is going to be that you don't want to pay for things your religion is against, then please first send me a cheque for 27359,57 please, as that is the amount dubbya had me pay for the wars in Iraq and Afghnanistan. And that's just what went directly there. I'm not counting all the crap taking place in the states over this. My religion prevents me from waging war, so the government should not make me pay so other people can.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2012, 02:22:19 PM »
Dark Clown, I have to ask this: how can you insist that a man who created and defined the policies of a company like Bain Capital, whose primary actions are buying out companies and either moving them off shores or selling their assets to make a quicker profit is the man to bring jobs BACK?

As for the failure of the president's programs and actions. It is very hard to get ANYTHING done when the oppositions first goal is to defeat your reelection years hence and drag their feet in pursuit of that goal.

Offline Serephino

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2012, 03:44:50 PM »
Dark Clown, I have to ask this: how can you insist that a man who created and defined the policies of a company like Bain Capital, whose primary actions are buying out companies and either moving them off shores or selling their assets to make a quicker profit is the man to bring jobs BACK?

As for the failure of the president's programs and actions. It is very hard to get ANYTHING done when the oppositions first goal is to defeat your reelection years hence and drag their feet in pursuit of that goal.

+1  They don't even try to hide it.  They said it outright in their campaign speeches.  Also, the video, and your words, suggest that the national debt in its entirety is solely because of President Obama.  That is just not true.  When President Bush left office we had a $13 trillion + national debt.  Okay, so it's gone up another 3 trillion or so.  No, that isn't a good thing, but what do you want the President  to do, wave a magic wand?  Even if the government doesn't borrow another dime the debt will still rise because of interest.  Interest is one of those necessary evils of money borrowing.  Romney isn't going to be able to wave a magic wand and get rid of it either.

How is making insurance companies cover birth control a violation of separation of church and state?  Birth control being a bad thing is a religious viewpoint.  If the government passes a law denying coverage, then that would be a violation.  That isn't what he did.  President Obama made it so that those of us who have no religious issues with birth control have access to it.  This is not Medieval Europe post Black Plague.  We do not need to rebuild the population.

The video is drivel with no actual fact.  It is meant to exploit parents' desire to secure a better future for their children.  It's the usual GOP strategy.  President Bush inferred that if we didn't re elect him we were all going to get murdered by terrorists.  It pissed me off then too.

Offline doodasaurus

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2012, 06:29:15 PM »
How is making insurance companies cover birth control a violation of separation of church and state?  Birth control being a bad thing is a religious viewpoint.  If the government passes a law denying coverage, then that would be a violation.

The courts have already ruled on this and, so far, I think the reasoning is splendid.  Money spent on insurance isn't the company's money, it's the *employee's* money -- it's part of the payment for their labor.  Therefore, it is theirs to spend as they please.  Management has no more a right to tell an employee what kind of benefits they have than they do to tell them how to spend their paychecks.  To me, that was a slam dunk against the notion that employeers have some sort of authority to dictate insurance to their employees.

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Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2012, 06:35:52 PM »
Management does have the right to choose what to offer their employees and the employees have the right to refuse.  Depending on the location of the business there might be a monetary payout to the employee who refuses company provided benefits which they can apply to their own choice of healthcare coverage.  Or they can find employment elsewhere at a company that is more amenable to them.

This is provided it is explained prior to accepting the job.

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2012, 06:39:26 PM »
Very true. But the company has no right to choose what you do with what they offer you.

Just like they can't say, you can't buy money from your paycheck they can't say you can't buy Contraceptives from the drug allowance on your benefits.

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Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2012, 06:42:54 PM »
If there are plans tailored to provide packages that omit birth control and other medical procedures and supplies and these plans are legal the company can offer those and the prospective employee can say no thank you and find work elsewhere. 

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2012, 06:50:03 PM »
wow. yeah cause finding work elsewhere is such an easy task in the US.

What's next. Packages specifically tailored so you can't buy green apples?

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Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2012, 06:56:02 PM »
There is no need to be rude.  It's life, real life.  You take what you can get and make do like the rest of us and fight the fight to get things changed.  I've never known any issue that was changed with a mean spirited attitude or sarcasm.

As for healthcare coverage, companies aren't required to even offer it or pay for it.  I agree it's not the nicest way to handle the situation but if you want it changed run for office and work to change it.


Offline Tamhansen

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2012, 07:09:49 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I agree to the fact that to change things you need to take action.
But you so dismissevely state that if people don't agree with the package they should just up and leave. Find employment elsewhere as if it's the simplest thing in the world, while in reality most people are tied to an employer for various socio economical reasons. Lack of jobs being a prominent one.
Then again if my employer tried to stick his religion in my healthcare, he'd probably have a union rep in there in two minutes flat, and i believe there lies the real answer, Unfortunately this is rare in the states. And that's a shame.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2012, 07:19:46 PM »
There is no need to be rude.  It's life, real life.  You take what you can get and make do like the rest of us and fight the fight to get things changed.  I've never known any issue that was changed with a mean spirited attitude or sarcasm.

Well...until people get fed up enough that they take to the streets with pitchforks and AK-47s.  THEN we'll see change.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Liberty 2012
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2012, 07:27:18 PM »
I confess being a navy Vet I have a perk in that I have coverage for the rest of my life in the form of Tricare. I can always fall back on paying for that over what the company offers. I do find this 'we dont' need to provide contraception (or whatever) because it's against my religous beliefs' excuse very dangerous. How is it different to offer NO real coverage when your boss is a Christian Scientist than one that doesn't allow contraception as a point of medical care. I know of at least TWO women who used the birth control pill for things other than contraception..but I work on planes.. medicine.. I listen to my doc and go 'okay'. I know that I have been given medication that was designed for one thing, which I didn't have, to treat something that I do have.

I have seen what it is like in a country where you have to find a doctor willing to face the Church to proscribe birth control, a Pharmacist willing to fill that prescription against the Church's wishes. The fun that is not something I want my nieces to go through HERE. And that is one of the things that actions like restricting something by LAW because it offends someone's religion will do. Seperation of Church and State is starting to fade.. and I fear the consequences.

Bequile's Mistress, I respect your argument.. and even concede it's more valid (at this time at the VERY least) than my own. I worry about the country we're building for my family in the future.

I blame myself, as a voter, for aiding and abetting this. I didn't pay attention to politics, and policy till 2004 or so. Oh I voted.. did the stupid and 'cute' thing of voting for 'Bill & Opus' in one election. Voted down the GOP ticket more than a few times. Voted my 'conscience' in '00 and '04 by choosing 3rd party types that had no chance of winning (short of the winner and runner ups all dropping dead before acceptance).

I started reading, listening, researching. I knew about the sheer apathy of voters for years. (That was put to me in 1980 when I saw the diagram in Ireland.. and books like Starship Troopers made me realize that I had a DUTY to vote. Not a right...)

Well...until people get fed up enough that they take to the streets with pitchforks and AK-47s.  THEN we'll see change.

She's pointing out that HERE.. in this forum..we can be polite and not mean spirited.