You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 03, 2016, 04:05:00 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: religion and mythology.  (Read 3652 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HurriSbezu

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2012, 12:16:24 PM »
Discordians usually complicate things towards having more fun.  If I had it in me to be religious, I'd probably be Discordian.  Maybe I am and don't know it.

You probably are. Just eat a hot dog on, say, Friday, with a hot dog bun around it, and you're pretty much a Pope of our religion.

Feel free to change the church entirely upon your stay.

Offline doodasaurus

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2012, 12:20:01 PM »
Hurri, yeah, but then I'd mess it all up by trying to talk about the significance of humor and absurdity in human spirituality.  I am, alas, essentially a dour guy.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2012, 12:23:47 PM »
If I had to follow a religion, I think it would be Norse, for me. C'mon, what do you want to believe - That some old guy got a bunch of animals on a boat and repopulated the entire human race and animalkind on a boat on a mountain, or that a guy with a giant magic hammer is having epic battles with ice giants in the North while his father disguises himself as a human, going on epic quests to fight monsters with a spear which never misses? ;D (At least, I think it was Odin who had Gungnir)

Offline doodasaurus

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2012, 12:25:04 PM »
Vanity, I would rather laugh, to tell you the truth.  :D

Offline HurriSbezu

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2012, 12:26:45 PM »
Hurri, yeah, but then I'd mess it all up by trying to talk about the significance of humor and absurdity in human spirituality.  I am, alas, essentially a dour guy.

I am not really sure we need to be smiling all the time! I am very interested in that sort of thing.

And in whether new innovations in religion can be done consciously. A church of My Little Pony is very much on my mind at the moment, though that is probably another thread.

Anyway. I don't think mythology is really the same thing as religion, or the simple base for it. Back in Socrates's day, speculation on the origin of the universe had nothing at all to do with the pagan ceremonies they attended. They were separate. At least, according to G. K. Chesterton.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2012, 12:33:05 PM »
I am not really sure we need to be smiling all the time! I am very interested in that sort of thing.

And in whether new innovations in religion can be done consciously. A church of My Little Pony is very much on my mind at the moment, though that is probably another thread.

Anyway. I don't think mythology is really the same thing as religion, or the simple base for it. Back in Socrates's day, speculation on the origin of the universe had nothing at all to do with the pagan ceremonies they attended. They were separate. At least, according to G. K. Chesterton.

New innovations in religion are done all the time, especially conciously. How do you think we get so many off-shoots? It's like the show I saw yesturday on Creationism. Woman believed in the idea that homosexuals were sinners - until she had a son, who turned out to be gay. She then decided that part must be wrong, because "God loves all of us, so he must love homosexuals too". Concious decision that what your belief system tells you is wrong, and needs changing.

Offline HurriSbezu

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2012, 12:35:40 PM »
New innovations in religion are done all the time, especially conciously. How do you think we get so many off-shoots? It's like the show I saw yesturday on Creationism. Woman believed in the idea that homosexuals were sinners - until she had a son, who turned out to be gay. She then decided that part must be wrong, because "God loves all of us, so he must love homosexuals too". Concious decision that what your belief system tells you is wrong, and needs changing.
Yes, but she doesn't start believing in a God she saw while tripping on mushrooms. She believes in one she read about in a book given to her by someone in a venerable church.
Authority and tradition often dominate nowadays. But now in the days of the Internet, we might be approaching a new spiritual awakening.

By which I mean a bunch of kids will get high or play stupid games and pretend this bullshit is significant. Like those people who believe they are part-webcomic character.

Offline doodasaurus

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2012, 12:41:00 PM »
Bun-Bun is my soul animal!

Offline TamhansenTopic starter

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2012, 12:41:46 PM »
In that case. this Chesterton fellow needs to redo history 101

It is true that in Greek times philosophy was seperate from religion. however the creation myth in greek times is as follows

In the beginning there was an empty darkness. The only thing in this void was Nyx, a bird with black wings. With the wind she laid a golden egg and for ages she sat upon this egg. Finally life began to stir in the egg and out of it rose Eros, the god of love. One half of the shell rose into the air and became the sky and the other became the Earth. Eros named the sky Uranus and the Earth he named Gaia. Then Eros made them fall in love.

Uranus and Gaia had many children together and eventually they had grandchildren. Some of their children become afraid of the power of their children. Kronus, in an effort to protect himself, swallowed his children when they were still infants. However, his wife Rhea hid their youngest child. She gave him a rock wrapped in swaddling clothes, which he swallowed, thinking it was his son.

Once the child, Zeus, had reached manhood his mother instructed him on how to trick his father to give up his brothers and sisters. Once this was accomplished the children fought a mighty war against their father. After much fighting the younger generation won. With Zeus as their leader, they began to furnish Gaia with life and Uranus with stars.

Soon the Earth lacked only two things: man and animals. Zeus summoned his sons Prometheus (fore-thought) and Epimetheus (after-thought). He told them to go to Earth and create men and animals and give them each a gift.

Prometheus set to work forming men in the image of the gods and Epimetheus worked on the animals. As Epimetheus worked he gave each animal he created one of the gifts. After Epimetheus had completed his work Prometheus finally finished making men. However when he went to see what gift to give man Epimetheus shamefacedly informed him that he had foolishly used all the gifts.

Distressed, Prometheus decided he had to give man fire, even though gods were the only ones meant to have access to it. As the sun god rode out into the world the next morning Prometheus took some of the fire and brought it back to man. He taught his creation how to take care of it and then left them.

When Zeus discovered Prometheus' deed he became furious. He ordered his son to be chained to a mountain and for a vulture to peck out his liver every day till eternity. Then he began to devise a punishment for mankind. Another of his sons created a woman of great beauty, Pandora. Each of the gods gave her a gift. Zeus' present was curiosity and a box which he ordered her never to open. Then he presented her to Epimetheus as a wife.

Pandora's life with Epimetheus was happy except for her intense longing to open the box. She was convinced that because the gods and goddesses had showered so many glorious gifts upon her that this one would also be wonderful. One day when Epimetheus was gone she opened the box.

Out of the box flew all of the horrors which plague the world today - pain, sickness, envy, greed. Upon hearing Pandora's screams Epimetheus rushed home and fastened the lid shut, but all of the evils had already escaped.

Later that night they heard a voice coming from the box saying,

"Let me out. I am hope."

Pandora and Epimetheus released her and she flew out into the world to give hope to humankind.

mythology is a part of religion. The basis for it really. Philosophy is a seperate art, except for theological philosopy, which of course is part of religion.

Is it coincidence that during the eigth hundred years philosophy was beholden to the catholic church was also the time progress in science, medicine and ideology came to a grinding halt? They don't call them the dark ages because it was dark outside.

Offline HurriSbezu

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2012, 12:46:05 PM »
In that case. this Chesterton fellow needs to redo history 101

It is true that in Greek times philosophy was seperate from religion. however the creation myth in greek times is as follows

*snip*

mythology is a part of religion. The basis for it really. Philosophy is a seperate art, except for theological philosopy, which of course is part of religion.

Is it coincidence that during the eigth hundred years philosophy was beholden to the catholic church was also the time progress in science, medicine and ideology came to a grinding halt? They don't call them the dark ages because it was dark outside.
I think Chesterton was claiming that the Creation Myth wasn't considered a RATIONAL explanation to the existence of the universe. He would argue that combining real-world philosophy with mythology is religion, and that before that point, mythology was just an emotional aesthetic response to the world around us. Of course, this is mostly nitpicking over terminology, but I find that sort of thing fun.

Bun-Bun is my soul animal!
My soulbond is Ducky, from what I THOUGHT was a crossover between Gravity Falls and Princess Tutu, but turned out to be REAL and in my HEART. :D

...People take this SERIOUSLY. And that is why Eris laughs at Tumblr.

Offline doodasaurus

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2012, 12:48:03 PM »
Actually, no historian called the Middle Ages the Dark Ages, anyway.  Huge leaps in all manner of technology were made during that time as were any number of social advances.  Just sayin'.

Hurri, maybe they take it with an equal dose of humor!  But I believe that people talk more about that kind of thing than it really *happens*.  A certain number of people have always had beliefs that are radically, even comically, different than the norm, it's just now we can find them with the power of Google.  ;)

Offline HurriSbezu

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2012, 12:51:36 PM »
Hurri, maybe they take it with an equal dose of humor!  But I believe that people talk more about that kind of thing than it really *happens*.  A certain number of people have always had beliefs that are radically, even comically, different than the norm, it's just now we can find them with the power of Google.  ;)
:3 Ha. ...you think people can laugh at tumblr. I assume you have not met the Social Justice radicals. Or an actual otherkin.

Some laugh, yeah... But they're more serious than is healthy. And now that the Internet exists, they can group together, they can spread their word.

I hope that they can prove religion to be, at the least, entirely arbitrary, and dissolve the modern idea of cohesive mythologies, and go back to the comic book continuity snarls of the old times. People will pick and choose their beliefs... And atheists will just scream that they need to grow up and stop believing in bullshit from the Internet, instead of having to cry at people voting for someone based on how often they mention God.

Offline TamhansenTopic starter

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2012, 12:55:42 PM »
Actually, in the period between 500 and 1300 Western Europe had a distinct lack of technilogical advancement. One major exception being the field of war.
Even discoveries made outside the Catholic sphere of influence took very long to be accepted inside it. It wasn't until the renaissance, a movement fought tooth and nail by the church that europe began to assimilate the technology from other realms, and they did so with a vengeance.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2012, 12:58:47 PM »
:3 Ha. ...you think people can laugh at tumblr. I assume you have not met the Social Justice radicals. Or an actual otherkin.

Actually, I've met several.  Some of them are quite well adjusted, and do a collective facepalm at the antics of the others on tumblr.  One thing about the Internet - the crazy gets distilled, even among the sanest of groups.  I've even seen flamewars on cross-stitch boards.  'Struth.

Offline Ironwolf85

  • Eletronic Scribe of naughty things.
  • Lord
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Location: New England Somewhere I won't tell you
  • Gender: Male
  • Here to have fun, Role play, and maybe get laid
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2012, 01:06:56 PM »
*sigh* I know where that arguement is going, and that nobody is going to listen.
I faces a simmilar problem on Nationstates with not being able to present my point properly.

Suffice to say I prefer to try to live according to christ's teachings and worship god, not the bible. which as been edited by men at least three times. But there is a diffrence between religion and mythology. even if the two are cousins.

Also science didn't come to a griding halt in the dark ages, it continued to advance, but slowly and sporadicly. The collapse of rome and of all learning instutions in the west, as rome had no public schools, was not solely the fault of the Roman Church. While unordained fantaics burned books and lead mobs trying to find somthing to eat, monks from the same church saved many books, and copied them down for future generations.

Offline doodasaurus

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2012, 01:07:52 PM »
Kataban, you've been sucked into an untrue belief about history.  Windmills, manufacture of paper, the spinning wheel, magnetic compass, eyeglasses, astrolabes, stern mounted rudders, the horse collar, horseshoes, the wine press, rib vault, chimney, segmental bridge arch, treadwheel crane, stationary harbor crane, floating crane, hourglass and mechanical clocks, water hammers, horizontal loom, hard liquor, glass mirrors, compound crank, blast furnace, rolling mill . . . that doesn't even count the things that they did better than before, like metallurgy and agricultural advances like the 2/3rds field rotation system.

All of these things were invented during the Middle Ages.  There was, in fact, nothing like a technological stagnation during the period.  Which is why historians have stopped calling it the “Dark Ages”.  The "nothing happened during the Middle Ages" was a conceit developed by the Renaissance humanists who wanted to attribute everything good in civilization to the Greeks and Romans.  It's just a historical canard that's stuck around for a while.

Offline HurriSbezu

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2012, 01:09:06 PM »
Actually, I've met several.  Some of them are quite well adjusted, and do a collective facepalm at the antics of the others on tumblr.  One thing about the Internet - the crazy gets distilled, even among the sanest of groups.  I've even seen flamewars on cross-stitch boards.  'Struth.
Sorry, didn't mean to insult your friends. I tried to hedge my bets, but...yeah.

Anyway. Modern-day mythology could use a continuity reboot at the very least. We could use an Old Testament that's more consistent with the New Testament. Or maybe slide in some Gnosticism (that's what the kids are into these days, yeah?)

Offline Ironwolf85

  • Eletronic Scribe of naughty things.
  • Lord
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Location: New England Somewhere I won't tell you
  • Gender: Male
  • Here to have fun, Role play, and maybe get laid
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2012, 01:18:37 PM »
Basicly what Dood said.
There is a lot of crap like that during the rennisance, where the church was depicted as "the enemy of reason" and as many of the guys were writing the history books, the coloring is skewed.

For example Gallilaeo is commonly thought to have been the father of modern astrology, he was not, he was a bit of a plagerist, but in history got the credit as the inquisiton's persicution made him famious for those theories.

Oddly he wasn't in trouble for poublishing a book saying the world was round, he was in trouble for publishing a book saying the world is round and the pope can screw off if he doesn't believe me. In rennisance italy, you didn't talk badly of el'papa in the public forum unless you were powerful, Galleo was not.

Offline HurriSbezu

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2012, 01:22:08 PM »
Oddly he wasn't in trouble for poublishing a book saying the world was round, he was in trouble for publishing a book saying the world is round and the pope can screw off if he doesn't believe me. In rennisance italy, you didn't talk badly of el'papa in the public forum unless you were powerful, Galleo was not.
You mean his heliocentric theory, right? World going around the sun instead of vice versa? It's another common error to assume that there was a controversy over the world being round.

The mythology for that dates back to Washington Irving, the writer behind The Headless Horseman and Rip Van Winkle. In the real world, we've settled the roundness of the world for thousands of years.

Still, other than that flub, you're basically right.

Offline Ironwolf85

  • Eletronic Scribe of naughty things.
  • Lord
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Location: New England Somewhere I won't tell you
  • Gender: Male
  • Here to have fun, Role play, and maybe get laid
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2012, 01:29:55 PM »
sorry I'm kinda crashing from lack of caffine and flubing my data.

Offline TamhansenTopic starter

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2012, 01:38:43 PM »
Kataban, you've been sucked into an untrue belief about history.  Windmills, manufacture of paper, the spinning wheel, magnetic compass, eyeglasses, astrolabes, stern mounted rudders, the horse collar, horseshoes, the wine press, rib vault, chimney, segmental bridge arch, treadwheel crane, stationary harbor crane, floating crane, hourglass and mechanical clocks, water hammers, horizontal loom, hard liquor, glass mirrors, compound crank, blast furnace, rolling mill . . . that doesn't even count the things that they did better than before, like metallurgy and agricultural advances like the 2/3rds field rotation system.

All of these things were invented during the Middle Ages.  There was, in fact, nothing like a technological stagnation during the period.  Which is why historians have stopped calling it the “Dark Ages”.  The "nothing happened during the Middle Ages" was a conceit developed by the Renaissance humanists who wanted to attribute everything good in civilization to the Greeks and Romans.  It's just a historical canard that's stuck around for a while.

Windmills exist in one form or another since egypt, maybe even before
paper was invented in China
the segmented arch bridge was already used by romans, chimneys were already present in houses in the middle east and as such is an import as well

If I was really interested I guess i could take at least 75% of those inventions out of the equation.

Yes there were some genuine inventions during the dark ages even in Christian Europe, but the pace of progress was significantly reduced, not to mention how much advancement was destroyed for being heretical knowledge.

My only point is that all in all, very little in this world has hindered progress as much as religion has.

Offline doodasaurus

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2012, 01:47:51 PM »
Kataban, yeah, did you know that all knowledge is not contained in Wikipedia?  But, it is impossible to discuss things with a wiki-scholar.  It cannot be done. I  could go on about Carolingian Renaissance this, Ottonian Renaissance that, 12th Century Renaissance this other thing, but eventually a dood just has to acknowledge it won't really mean much.   Exhaustion achievement unlocked.

Offline TamhansenTopic starter

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2012, 02:20:53 PM »
Bad arguments followed by bad conjecture.

I do not get my knowledge from ze wikipedia or googol,  I could argue the  the Carolingian renaissance only rehashed on old philosophy and knowledge, without actually adding anything serious. It's kinda like holywood bringing back all those 80 movies and tv shows with new actors.

You can try to moot my point by avoiding it and showing relatively small advances and rediscoveries. They were there, and there wasn't a complete stop on all technilogical advancement, but the pace and significance were much lower than in the period before or after.

But I guess it all comes down to a point of what one finds significant, which is in all fairness subjective.

Offline tozhma

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2012, 05:55:27 PM »
Adam and Eve, adam's second wife btw had two children, Cain and Abel. Cain slew Abel and was forced to wander in the desert alone for eternity.

If Christianity had cohesive theology, that would have been the end of the human race.

Christianity says god would never intentionally harm his people, yet he let's one of his most loyal followers (Job) suffer the most horrible things.

Well, here you're running toward the problem of theodicy here which nobody has ever completely resolved in any religion with a kind and loving god. Christianity was cohesive enough, and at Nicea they settled some of the more technical internal disputes.

Offline TamhansenTopic starter

Re: religion and mythology.
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2012, 06:19:58 PM »
Well, here you're running toward the problem of theodicy here which nobody has ever completely resolved in any religion with a kind and loving god. Christianity was cohesive enough, and at Nicea they settled some of the more technical internal disputes.

The problem with Christianity is that it has two gods. the god in the first movie was definitely another actor than the second movie.

Part 1 or the old testament has a vengeful god, bent on dooming people with fire and brimstone, rampant floods, killing firstborn locust and frogs if you didn't follow his commands. He refused Moses entry into the holy land for saving one of the Jews god says he loves so much.

Then in the sequel suddenly we have this loving hippy god who is all about forgiving and forgetting, who'd apparently embrace you after you raped his mommy, if only you said you were sorry.

No wonder they sold the bible as non fiction. If it was fiction people would laugh it off as way too ridiculous.

And then your second argument the council of Nicea settled technical disputes? The Arian heresy was a technical dispute, hell I'd even go so far as agreeing the reformation was a dispute about mere details.
The council of Nicea discarded six of the ten gospels as far as we know, could have been more, removed any passages of mary magdalena as jesus' lover or wife, because his status as the son of god would be better to sell, and they turned her into a whore for the sole reason of further portraying women as the evil purpretrators of the original sin.Not to mention the apocrypha. And that's just what's been proven.
Technical internal disputes, hmmm.


Cohesive. meh. The history of the discworld makes more sense.

Now I'm not saying that god doesn't exist or that Jesus never existed. I wasn't there, but based on simple historical facts I can be fairly certain that the bible has very little connection to them anymore