Topic: Liberty 2012

[Beguile's Mistress]

Don't get me wrong, I agree to the fact that to change things you need to take action.
But you so dismissevely state that if people don't agree with the package they should just up and leave. Find employment elsewhere as if it's the simplest thing in the world, while in reality most people are tied to an employer for various socio economical reasons. Lack of jobs being a prominent one.
Then again if my employer tried to stick his religion in my healthcare, he'd probably have a union rep in there in two minutes flat, and i believe there lies the real answer, Unfortunately this is rare in the states. And that's a shame.

An employer who changes plans and cuts coverage to deny previously provided benefits is one thing, but an employer hiring someone and telling them this is what the company provides is different.  You may have a legal issue for redress against the first but against the second it's take it or leave it.  A privately owned company has the right to do business in any way that is legal and while it's distasteful to me to see the sort of things some employers are doing in this area I'm not going to argue with their right to do it.

I'm not being dismissive as you say.  I work for a company that pays 50% of our healthcare benefits and we have to pay the other 50%.  It's damned expensive and I have medical issues that fill three six-inch hospital charts so the out-of-pocket expense hits me hard too.  But if they paid the full cost they would be bankrupt.  I don't like what our country has been reduced to in this area and I have friends who are hurt by it. 

I don't think government should involve itself in reproductive issues in peoples lives.  They should stay out of it completely on both sides of the fence, employer and employee. 

Well...until people get fed up enough that they take to the streets with pitchforks and AK-47s.  THEN we'll see change.

Or people can take an intelligent approach to problem solving and get involved themselves.  The more people who actually get out there and work to make change the faster the change gets made. 


@Callie - I didn't see your post until after I posted the above.  Too many of us have followed that path and have regretted it.  I hope and pray that the generations following will see things more clearly.

[Callie Del Noire]

@Callie - I didn't see your post until after I posted the above.  Too many of us have followed that path and have regretted it.  I hope and pray that the generations following will see things more clearly.

I'm not gifted with children of my own, and given my Neurochemically fucked up brain is inheritable (I'm bi-polar) I doubt I'd want to personally have a child. I love my nephew and my nieces and hope for many more from my little brother and his great wife, and THAT is the reason I read, listen, and bug the everloving shit out of my elected officials.

We've mortgaged our future, my party has sold it's soul, and is trying to steal THEIR future..they aren't ready to stand up for themselves.. but I am. So I speak up.. before some tool down South rules that my new neice isn't 'American' enough to walk down the street of her hometown without two forms of proof that she IS an American citizen because her mother is Mexican-American (and odds on has more American ancestors that the dicks pushing such laws into existence.)

My family (barring the American Indians) have been part of this country since BEFORE it's birth. I can place at least eight revolutionary soldiers in my mother's side of the family alone. I know what sacrifice and service means.. you have to consider not your loss.. but what you bring to the future.

[Tamhansen]

An employer who changes plans and cuts coverage to deny previously provided benefits is one thing, but an employer hiring someone and telling them this is what the company provides is different.  You may have a legal issue for redress against the first but against the second it's take it or leave it.  A privately owned company has the right to do business in any way that is legal and while it's distasteful to me to see the sort of things some employers are doing in this area I'm not going to argue with their right to do it.

I'm not being dismissive as you say.  I work for a company that pays 50% of our healthcare benefits and we have to pay the other 50%.  It's damned expensive and I have medical issues that fill three six-inch hospital charts so the out-of-pocket expense hits me hard too.  But if they paid the full cost they would be bankrupt.  I don't like what our country has been reduced to in this area and I have friends who are hurt by it. 

I'm not gonna argue semantics or intentions  I will just let the way you made that comment speak for itself, no use in getting bent up over it. The point for me is simple, if employers get to decide which medicine you can and can't take, then like Callie said that can lead to them denying you whatever they want. And that is what Obamacare is preventing. Now the whole contraceptive thing isn't about whether or not companies can afford it, but how much power a company's owner has in the life of his employees. Now the situation of your employer, I can understand given the hugely inflated healthcare cost in my beloved homeland. I've also given the reasons for the inflated cost in another thread more suited for that. And how difficult it may be for the employees, as long as their is no state or federal healthcare, they will always be forced to pay out of pocket sadly.

I don't think government should involve itself in reproductive issues in peoples lives.  They should stay out of it completely on both sides of the fence, employer and employee.

Tbh i wish the government did interfere in people's reproductive issues, but that's a whole othe socioeconomic issue entirely.

The weird thing is, obamacare could make this whole discussion moot, as a nation wide healthcare system if run efficiently could lower dreug prices by at least ten or 20 percent. Living in the netherlands for a few years now, I've seen their health insurance companies get lower prices time and again. Birth control in the US is about 30 dollars a month. That same pill imported from the US, costs 16 euro's or 20 dollars. Now seeing as our market is les than 5% of the size of the US, surely healthcare companies should be able to negotiate at least what they di over here.

[Trieste]

Currently the system is set up so that insurance companies decide what they will cover for a certain price. The decide it based on cost to them and business modeling, not on ethics, morals, religion, etc (at least, usually). Broken as the insurance system is, that decision should not be transferred to an employer. Health insurance is part of a compensation package when it comes with employment. It is part of your compensation. With the obvious exception of legality, what you do with your compensation is absolutely not your employer's business, nor should it be. The current job market makes "take it or don't have a job" negotiations a form of abuse. It is no different than an employer insisting that you donate to a certain charity or you risk being laid off - it is an abuse of power and it's loathsome.

The only person besides my doctor and I who has any business knowing what prescriptions my doc writes or what health care my doc provides is my pharmacist - and then only so they can check for drug interactions, not so they can dictate my healthcare.

[Stattick]

Let's say that you work in a small town in Kansas. Most of the good paying jobs are either working for the massive farming conglomerate, or working for the meat processing plant. There are other jobs around, but most of them are low paying and don't have benefits.

Would it be fair if those two biggest employers both refused to cover contraception and abortion for any reason because of their religious principles? Sometimes people take the only job available because they need work. Sometimes moving away to take a job a hundred miles away isn't practical or possible. Big corporations absolutely should not have that sort of power in people's lives. I personally don't think that small employers should either, but I might be willing to compromise for businesses that employ fewer than 20 employees or something like that, if independent studies show that it's not going to seriously screw things up for the general population.

[Serephino]

Growing up I had PA CHIP insurance all through high school.  It was pretty decent insurance, but the one stupid thing I remember is that it wouldn't cover birth control unless the doctor signed a little piece of paper stating it was for a reason other than prevention of pregnancy.  I was able to get it because my uterus hates me, but they didn't make it easy.  God forbid a low income family try to prevent teen pregnancy on the tax payer dime...  Here it's like $60 without insurance, unless of course you go to Planned Parenthood, then they use a sliding scale pay system.  Too bad the GOP wants to get rid of Planned Parenthood because they're an abortion machine *sighs*

My local Planned Parenthood has preformed zero abortions.  I know this because I've gone there twice for a pregnancy test.  Right on the little form they have you fill out one of the questions is what you would like to do if the test is positive.  Under the little abortion box it says that they themselves cannot perform the abortion, but they will refer you to a clinic that can if that is what you want to do.  I don't know if it's a state thing or what, but all they do is what a normal OB/GYN would do.  In fact, it's the only place I can go now since the only other place in town has decided they can no longer see me cuz I couldn't cough up $36 for my co insurance payment.   

[elone]

Here's some fact based rebuttal to your arguments.

Firstly, this is about reclaiming liberty.  President Obama has broken the law, on more than one occasion. 


Charge 4: Soliciting foreign campaign contributions, which violates electoral law

These are outrageous abuses of power by a man who sits in the highest office in the land and should conduct himself with all the dignity required of such a position.  He should have made sure that his campaign contributions were above reproach.  There should be NO doubt as to the validity of his contributors as American citizens, but the fact of the matter is, he can't solicit enough donations from within his own country.  The American people are the ones who have had to deal with his policies, and have had to suffer through his 'hope and change'. 

Going back in the conversation. OK I took some time to read your charges, maybe you did not. Here is a quote from the very piece you use to indict our president.

"Schweizer and Boyer present no hard data that show Obama’s 2012 campaign has benefited from widespread foreign or fraudulent donations. They also acknowledge that Republican nominee Mitt Romney could theoretically take advantage of the “loopholes,” as well. The report only purports to illustrate that the possibility for fraud exists."

[Vekseid]

That is pretty much the substance of the evidence Dark Clown is providing in this thread. Smoke, mirrors, misleading statements, 'maybe they did this', 'This guy says it violates the Constitution!'

From someone presumably making something of a living at it, I'd at the very least expect a well-sourced and explained breakdown like I made for SOPA/PIPA here. But we don't get a single proper citation.

[Mr Self Destruct]

You're certainly entitled to your opinions.  I'll give you that, at least.

But to save myself from the possibility of being banned, I'm giving this up.  I understand my views are in the minority on this site, so I'll not push any more buttons.  I take comfort in the number of like-minded individuals that have approached me privately after reading my views and have voiced their opinions, where they certainly couldn't publicly for fear of ridicule and scorn.  Those those members, I thank you for letting me know I'm not the only one, and we're not alone in this.

Enjoy the Politics threads, ladies and gentlemen.  I plan on staying out of them.

[elone]

Dark Clown, I don't think that it is your views that people object to, everyone has an absolute right to their opinion. It is the manner in which you present them, as if everything you say is based on absolute fact when it is not.

It can be compared with reading a newspaper editorial, it is one person's opinion, and that does not make it true. If one thing has come out of this  political campaign that is worth while, it is the role of fact checkers. There has been so much lying and misrepresentation going on on both sides that it is hard to tell who is presenting anything resembling factual representation. Personally, I think that Crossroads PAC is the epitomy of this type of propaganda, for want of a better word, but both sides do it to some degree.

The Supreme Court unfortunately put this on us in the name of freedom of speech. The problem is, many people just believe everything they read and don't check to see if the statistics are true or manipulated.

And as for Romney, he changes his spots so often, I could not vote for him for that reason alone. I could not possibly know where he truly stands on any issue. How can anyone voter for that? I looked at his website and it seemed a mass of contradictions from the performance he put out in the debates. Of course, he had to soften himself after going so far to the right to win the primary and after his 47% comments. That is just the point, who is the man?

[Vekseid]

The only time we've banned someone for a 'right wing opinion' was when someone compared homosexuals to pedophiles and refused to so much as apologize.

If we get 'people' spewing nonsense from proxies, I might take action there too, but that hasn't become a concern here as it has on other major sites.

As for participation in P&R specifically, there is a general implicit assumption from all sides that they are willing to grow. If nothing can change your mind, then you are not arguing, you are preaching.

[Mr Self Destruct]

Regardless, I don't want to take my chances.  I value my membership here too much.

[Callie Del Noire]

Regardless, I don't want to take my chances.  I value my membership here too much.

Your membership isn't in danger. You are a bit emotional but these are emotional times. Be aware that not everyone agrees with one another, accept that you have to defend your arguments with facts and learn from one another.

Veks, and many others, have corrected my assumptions from to time and I try to learn from a differing viewpoint. As the Late Jesse Helms said to my brother when he worked for him, sometime you're going to thing that need doing, despite liking them or not.

[OldSchoolGamer]

You're certainly entitled to your opinions.  I'll give you that, at least.

But to save myself from the possibility of being banned, I'm giving this up.  I understand my views are in the minority on this site, so I'll not push any more buttons.  I take comfort in the number of like-minded individuals that have approached me privately after reading my views and have voiced their opinions, where they certainly couldn't publicly for fear of ridicule and scorn.  Those those members, I thank you for letting me know I'm not the only one, and we're not alone in this.

Enjoy the Politics threads, ladies and gentlemen.  I plan on staying out of them.

The "silent majority," I take it?

Seriously, no one is going to ban you for being Right of center.  I think what's going on here is that you are not used to your postings being fact-checked and cross-examined.  This isn't like many partisan political boards, where people just post whatever and get cheered on.  Criticism is robust here (even if rigorous moderation does tend to temper use of the Socratic method with mandatory etiquette). Post something with links and people will follow the links and examine and weigh them--and not all sources and links are equal.  Post something with no cites or sources that sounds like it came out of your ass, and you will be called on that. 

And yes, "Fox News" conservatives are a minority here.  They also are in America itself, much as they would like to believe otherwise.  But as you've no doubt picked up on, many users here are poor freethinkers, who are not going to be hoodwinked into fawning all over the wealthy elite or thinking that multibillion-dollar megacorporations have their best interests at heart.  There are also quite a few folks here with libertarian leanings, who are generally supportive of the free market, but who 1) don't have a dog in the "moral" fights of the Right, 2) nor in the "Obama is an American-hating MUSLIM!!!1!!1" rhetoric, and 3) also think the rich are beyond rich enough and that there ought to be limits on the unhealthy influence corporations have on the American political process.  To put it another way, many folks here tend to approach the libertarian corner from the Left, valuing social and sexual freedom over economic freedom, rather than from the Right (i.e., the Tea Party, which holds the freedom of billionaires buying elections to be more important than that of homosexuals who want to get married). 

But there's still room for Fox News conservatives here.  I think you just need to be a little more focused.  Rather than broadsides and jeremiads, try posting on specific, tangible issues.  Provide cites and data from reputable sources (not YouTube videos) to support your specific assertions.  And be able to accept criticism, and respond to it with something other than, "I can't respond, I'm going to get banned."  No offense, but that makes it sound like you're trying to play the martyr.

Just my two coppers' worth...

[Tamhansen]

It's the problem of many conformists both to the right and to the left. Believe me you don't have to be a fox conservative to display this behaviours. Believe me I could build a bridge from Amsterdam to new york from the liberals who do the same.

The internet is not a reliable news source, neither is Fox or MSNBC or those communists at CNN. But the point is by staying at home in front of your t.v. or computer screen you'll never learn the truth.

Example: if some one truly believes living off unemployment benefits is an easy meal ticket. Go spend a week with some one who is on them. See how they live.
If you believe national healthcare isn't needed, go see what life is like for a factory worker that got sick from the unsafe conditions he worked in.
If you think Mitt Romney will create jobs when he is in office, go ask the people Like Randy johnson who worked for a company bought and 'improved' by Bain capital, how he liked the new job Romney created for him. Oh wait Romney didn't create a new job, he laid off the factory workers, destroyed the company and then collected insurance for bankrupting the company.

If you truly believe the 1% are the job creators, you slept through history class. The true job creators are small business owners. middle class peole who work hard and reward their staff for doing the same. But those get screwed over by the GOP time and again. And so the American economy lives on, in debt to the eyebrows, and enslaved to the one percent. But don't take my word for it. Go out into your country and actually see for yourself.

[onetruebabylon]

A rather interesting read, certainly. Though the "us vs. them" mentality displayed in here is a bit tired.
I would like to encourage all participants to remember that every single person here is on the same "side". We're all people and I have a hard time imagining any one of us actively goes around thinking "I hope you have a miserable life." at random people we encounter on the street. We all strive for happiness and we all like being around happy people--I dare say this is near universal. So I would encourage Dark Clown, and everyone else, to view this as an opportunity to learn.

I join these roleplaying venues, despite a strong preference for solo writing, because it exposes me to writers of all levels of experience and all sorts of styles. Every single person here I see is someone whose writing I enjoy more than my own. This is true on other boards, one of which I own. While many of those very people would scoff and say that my writing is much, much more enjoyable than their own. So I could do one of two things: Become incredibly insecure and look for ways to convince myself that I'm a better writer than those who I see as better than me or I can become incredibly arrogant and just dismiss everyone else as inferior because I'm a sexy beast and they're not. Because I said so.

Alternatively I could view every encounter with a different writer, a different viewpoint, a different mindset as exactly what it is: A learning experience. I find this to be the far healthier option. It makes me a better writer and person to look at opposing viewpoints or writers and ask myself "Why do they write like they do? What can I glean from them and pass on to others?". We all do what we do, believe what we do, for a reason. Despite what those particular views may be I think it is incredibly important that everyone keep an open mind and try to understand why they see things as they do. The more difficult that task is the more valuable the answer will be to you as a person.

I would say peace and happiness are the same in a key way: Neither can be obtained through force. Both can be obtained through understanding.

My attempted tangent of enlightenment now complete I do encourage you all to keep going, and I would encourage Dark Clown not to shy away from the conversation. I do believe Vekseid is the owner of this establishment and he has assured you that there is nothing to worry about--take the man at this word, doesn't everyone deserve that courtesy, at least at first?

[Stattick]

...many folks here tend to approach the libertarian corner from the Left, valuing social and sexual freedom over economic freedom, rather than from the Right

That describes me to a T.

[Tamhansen]

A rather interesting read, certainly. Though the "us vs. them" mentality displayed in here is a bit tired.
I would like to encourage all participants to remember that every single person here is on the same "side". We're all people and I have a hard time imagining any one of us actively goes around thinking "I hope you have a miserable life." at random people we encounter on the street. We all strive for happiness and we all like being around happy people--I dare say this is near universal. So I would encourage Dark Clown, and everyone else, to view this as an opportunity to learn.

It's a human condition. Me against my brother, me and my brother against our cousin. Me my brother and my cousin against the stranger. Us against them is in our blood.

Also, but this is completely irrelevant to the subject matter. "Trust in Allah, but always tie up your camel"