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Author Topic: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?  (Read 4400 times)

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Offline Chris Brady

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2012, 12:43:05 PM »
For the record, I think it's a bit of both:  Romney blew the election by telling it like it is.

And for those of you who don't know, I am Canadian.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2012, 01:00:59 PM »
For the record, I think it's a bit of both:  Romney blew the election by telling it like it is.

And for those of you who don't know, I am Canadian.

No he blew the election by selling out anything he could to get the nomination. If he could have dropped trow center stage at the GOP Convention and be assured of of getting the nomination..he'd have done it. Or set someone on fire.. or kiss a guy. NOTHING would be against his morals to get the ticket. He's been working on it for 7 years..

Offline Luna

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Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2012, 01:07:26 PM »
No he blew the election by selling out anything he could to get the nomination. If he could have dropped trow center stage at the GOP Convention and be assured of of getting the nomination..he'd have done it. Or set someone on fire.. or kiss a guy. NOTHING would be against his morals to get the ticket. He's been working on it for 7 years..

And he has been thinking about it and planning it for a whole lot longer. Ever since his father lost his own bid for president. You are right, he will do or say anything he thinks will get him closer to the White House.

Case in point- now he was wiped the "Etch-a-Sketch" and is suddenly touting himself as the grandfather of Obamacare. Really, Willard, really?!?

Offline Will

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2012, 01:17:37 PM »
You got to admit..she seems a bit.. meek at times. (My opinion.. of course it might be the campaign keeping her privacy..which I can respect. I don't think that family is a big deal normally in the run)

I know exactly what point he was trying to make - you want to save your weapons until they can do the most damage at the best possible time.  The way he said it just made him sound like a complete tool, which is really becoming a theme with him.  If you think the country is too dependent on entitlements, fine.  Let's talk about it.  But don't write off half the country as lazy leeches.  That makes you a tool.

And it's important to remember that the only taxes he's talking about are income taxes.  People that don't have to pay income tax generally pay sales tax on every dollar they earn, because they have to spend every dollar they earn.  Not to mention payroll taxes.  So in the end, they can end up paying a pretty sizable percentage of their income as taxes, regardless of whether they owe anything come April.  But I suppose that's not something Mitt Rmoney has to think about.  He might not even remember what it's like to physically take himself to the bank and cash a payroll check.  If he ever has.

Online Caitlin

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2012, 01:45:08 PM »
Heck... Even I am paying taxes in the USA and I'm not even an American citizen... Wutaboutmybleepbleeprights!? :p

(Though in my situation it'll be rectified within several months, as soon as I get the US tax papers and a tax number.)

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2012, 01:59:36 PM »
For the record, I think it's a bit of both:  Romney blew the election by telling it like it is.

And for those of you who don't know, I am Canadian.

Except that's not how it is.  The notion that 47% of Americans don't pay tax has been thoroughly debunked.  Romney is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.  And rather than admit his error, he doubled down on it.

Offline mia hTopic starter

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2012, 02:01:09 PM »
Except that's not how it is.  The notion that 47% of Americans don't pay tax has been thoroughly debunked.  Romney is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.  And rather than admit his error, he doubled down on it.

Didn't you see the GOP convention posters : "Our Campaign will not be run by Fact Checkers"

Online Caitlin

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2012, 02:10:22 PM »
I suppose a pretty lie is more pleasing to his ears than the hard truth?

Offline Luna

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Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2012, 02:24:58 PM »
I can't believe I'm gonna defend Romney, but I will give him this much... he was very careful to say 'income taxes'. So technically he wasn't lying... but he also knows that people don't hear the 'income' part and will just assume that 47% of the people don't pay any taxes whatsoever. It's actually a fairly old republican trick. In truth, as has been stated here already by me and others, there are very few people that don't pay any taxes, whatsoever.

tldr; Romney wasn't really lying, he's just a ****ing weasel.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2012, 02:30:23 PM »
As a full time student on VA disabilty .. I'm firmly in the 'leech column' of his equation. I only paid taxes for every year but the last 2.. and what is the weight of 30 years against the last 2?

Online Oniya

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Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2012, 03:01:31 PM »
tldr; Romney wasn't really lying, he's just a ****ing weasel.

What's the phrase?  An eagle can soar, but a weasel will never get sucked into the engine of a jet plane?

Offline Denivar

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2012, 01:57:19 AM »
Something significant that this entire thing highlights is how badly lower income people have been screwed over in the US by payroll tax.

Most people understand payroll tax to be a flat tax rate on all your income, and thus reasonably fair. In fact, it only applies to the first $115,000 or so of income. So, those with very high incomes like Romney pay almost no payroll tax, while for all normal people, payroll tax eats a significant portion of their income.

Now, an important thing to remember is that payroll tax is a big deal. It is what pays pensions for the elderly and disabled. Federal income tax will produce revenue of around $1.4 trillion this year, and payroll tax $0.8 trillion. And the very rich basically don't pay payroll tax.

This has allowed Romney et al to complain about people not paying income tax, while failing to recognize the payroll tax they pay -- and Romney doesn't pay.

Remember, payroll tax works out to 15.3% of your income (if you're earning less than $115k or so), and unlike income tax, payroll tax has very little scope for deductions or otherwise avoiding it. How much federal income tax does Romney pay? Well, he won't reveal his tax returns, but he says "at least 13%".

Online Caitlin

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2012, 02:09:49 AM »
You should introduce the tax we have in The Netherlands, Romney would die from a stroke. ;)



Between 0 - 18,945 euro we pay 33.10 percent tax (belasting = tax)
Over the next amount until 33,863 euro we pay 41.95% tax, etc.

If you make for example 500,000 euros a year, then you pay 52% tax over the last 443,509 euro you earn. The more you earn, the more tax you progressively pay.

And that is just the income tax. We also have a VAT of 19%, which will be raised to 21% next year. On top of that we also have excise on for example cigarettes and gasoline. For cigarettes this raises their price with 300% and for gasoline it raises the price with 120%.

We do have a good healthcare and social security system though. People are cared for from birth to death.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 02:11:18 AM by Caitlin »

Offline Denivar

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2012, 08:55:45 PM »
You know, for all the "let's go back to the good old days" implications the Republicans have, they'd die of a stroke over the taxes the US used to as well.

In the 1950's it worked roughly like this (numbers adjusted for inflation):

- First $40k you earn you pay 20% tax on
- For each additional $40k you earn your tax on that additional amount goes up by a small amount (1-3%)
- Once you hit $4 million in income you'll be paying 91% tax on your last $40k. The tax stops going up at this point, so any amount you earn above $4 million you pay 91% tax on.

This wasn't for a brief period either -- it was like this for many years, throughout most of the 50's and 60's.

Online Caitlin

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2012, 02:39:16 AM »
You'd have to index that to current standards though... 40k then is easily more than 100k now. Still, you do make a really good point.

Clinging to the past will never help anybody. You can use the past as an inspiration and to learn from mistakes, but apart from the dark ages mankind has continued to develop itself and at more progressive rate the last 200 years. Living in a past that is no more will only serve to hinder your own progress.

I often wished I had a time machine to fix mistakes I made, but after living in regret for several years I finally accepted that changing the past is impossible, no matter how badly you want it. Instead I now focus on the future and I've become a lot happier since. As a result my standard of living also significantly improved.

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Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2012, 11:15:43 AM »
I think he did index it...

In the 1950's it worked roughly like this (numbers adjusted for inflation):

I managed to miss out on the 60's, but I know that the cost of living was also a lot less, proportionately.  My father supported a family of five (this was before my kid sister and myself) on a military salary.  Even after he came home from 'Nam and had the two of us added in, my mother didn't have to work.


Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2012, 02:39:28 PM »
I think he did index it...

I managed to miss out on the 60's, but I know that the cost of living was also a lot less, proportionately.  My father supported a family of five (this was before my kid sister and myself) on a military salary.  Even after he came home from 'Nam and had the two of us added in, my mother didn't have to work.

I'll just answer this by borrowing the line I got from a neo-con guy here when we were talking U.S. economics and Scandinavian economics, especially the cost of living, starting up companies and wages; it was around 2007 I think. I was roughly making the same point as you, that life is a lot more expensive now than fifty years ago, that nobody's supporting a family with two adults and a couple kids on just one salary anymore, unless the job is that of a high-ranking business exec or the like, and that U.S. small towns and countryside have been widely slipping into long-term poverty for some time. Well, he came back with:

"Poor people in Louisiana are much better off than mid-range working class here /in Sweden/. Have you seen the cars that are driven around on the highways and local roads of Louisiana? Those are no junk cars, I can tell you!"

 :D

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Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2012, 02:44:54 PM »
Was he certain that those 'non-junk' cars belonged to poor people?  I lived in a small town for the last five years, and actually saw someone drive down the street, lose their muffler, stop, get out, toss it into the truck bed and keep going as if this was no big deal.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2012, 02:49:43 PM »
"Poor people in Louisiana are much better off than mid-range working class here /in Sweden/. Have you seen the cars that are driven around on the highways and local roads of Louisiana? Those are no junk cars, I can tell you!"

 :D

Has Mr. Neo-Con seen the drivers' houses? It's not at all an unusual thing here in Maine to see people whose most valuable asset is their car; they live in mobile homes that are one peeled strip of vinyl away from being an aeolian harp.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2012, 03:25:42 PM »
Was he certain that those 'non-junk' cars belonged to poor people?  I lived in a small town for the last five years, and actually saw someone drive down the street, lose their muffler, stop, get out, toss it into the truck bed and keep going as if this was no big deal.

The obvious rejoinder. I really should have pointed out to him that many of those who were trapped by Katrina and later accused of being "dumb and careless" , likely didn't have cars to escape from New Orleans in, or may not have had the money to buy gas and food for that kind of trip.

But I bet he'd have dismissed that as commie media allegations.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 03:30:44 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Denivar

Re: Romney : telling it like it is or blowing the election?
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2012, 04:08:46 PM »
Yes, the numbers I gave were indexed for inflation.

Incidentally here is an interesting chart, showing job creation vs top marginal income tax in the US:



Correlation does not prove cause, but those are interesting numbers to overcome for anyone who claims that reducing the top marginal tax rate is going to create a bunch of jobs.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 11:17:33 PM by KneelToTheWhip »