You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 07, 2016, 06:32:52 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid  (Read 13328 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2012, 10:29:55 AM »
Actually, I'd like to hear some comment on this, yes. I might be experiencing a brain freeze at the moment, but I don't see what is "messed up" about this part of Akin's reasoning. If a woman wasn't raped, but claims so in order to get an abortion, then... it is kind of wrong, right?

First off, a woman shouldn't have to claim rape in order to have an abortion.  All she should need to do is say 'I've come to the decision that I'm not going to have this baby.'  It's hard enough for most people to do that.  Every woman I've ever talked to or read about who has had an abortion came to that decision after a lot of agonizing thought.  We hear the right-wing extremists talk about it as though people use it as 'birth control', but I think that's a load of hogwash.  It there are people who are that casual about it -  do we really want to force them to raise a child that they care so little for? 

Offline Beorning

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2012, 11:50:55 AM »
First off, a woman shouldn't have to claim rape in order to have an abortion.  All she should need to do is say 'I've come to the decision that I'm not going to have this baby.'

Hm. I cannot agree with that, I'm afraid...

Quote
Every woman I've ever talked to or read about who has had an abortion came to that decision after a lot of agonizing thought.  We hear the right-wing extremists talk about it as though people use it as 'birth control', but I think that's a load of hogwash.  It there are people who are that casual about it -  do we really want to force them to raise a child that they care so little for?

I may be mistaken, but I think I've read about abortion statistics in UK (where the abortion laws are very tolerant). The article suggested that women there do, indeed, treat abortions like another form of birth control - and I've read this article in a very liberal newspaper.

Offline Will

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2012, 12:07:09 PM »
Hm. I cannot agree with that, I'm afraid...

What makes you think you should get a say in abortion laws?  I'm not trying to attack you.  I'm honestly curious.

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2012, 12:08:36 PM »
Hm. I cannot agree with that, I'm afraid...

I may be mistaken, but I think I've read about abortion statistics in UK (where the abortion laws are very tolerant). The article suggested that women there do, indeed, treat abortions like another form of birth control - and I've read this article in a very liberal newspaper.

Okay.. how would you address the issue at hand. Once pregnancy occurs, the man doesn't have any true responsibilty beyond what he takes (or is forced to). I know A LOT of guys in school who did the 'aint my kid' two step and the girl has to raise the child alone.

My mom did that, with the help of her family, for nearly 10 years before she married my father. My older brother.. his father did DICK from the time he left her till my brother was made senior partner in a law firm that was part of the Asbestos class action suit. Suddenly after DECADES of no responsibility and support he shows up (after signing away his parental rights to my father) and tries to weddle in now that my brother  had hit it big.

You want to curtail abortions and such? Offer other options. I see damn little adoption reform, parental responsibility reform, shrinking child welfare and social care.

I notice the same people who are anti-abortion and anti-birthcontrol in the US are also anti-adoption reform, screwing child welfare, and anything else that can remotely construed as social welfare and responsible social care. Because it requires money. Unless of course you can privatize it .. like the juvenile prison system.

Despite proof of things like a proper sex education program prevents/reduces teen pregnancy. I'll stop there.. because if I start listing how INFORMING our people will reduce issues more than banning other solutions.. I'd have another one of my two page posts. (I'm trying to cut back)

Simply put.. want to reduce abortions? Teach responsibility, sex ed and birth control methods and offer them. I did enough rounds with my mom when she worked in Home Health to have heard 'that ain't how you get pregnant' comments from girls who swore up and down that 'he pulled out before it could happen' and other foolishness.

And let me tell.. when you see your first 9 year old mother.. you have ZERO sympathy with the fools who are trying to roll back these sort of issues.

Offline Beorning

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2012, 12:28:19 PM »
What makes you think you should get a say in abortion laws?  I'm not trying to attack you.  I'm honestly curious.

Well, that's how democracy works, right? Everyone gets a say in everything.

Okay.. how would you address the issue at hand. Once pregnancy occurs, the man doesn't have any true responsibilty beyond what he takes (or is forced to). I know A LOT of guys in school who did the 'aint my kid' two step and the girl has to raise the child alone.

And that's obviously very wrong.

Quote
My mom did that, with the help of her family, for nearly 10 years before she married my father. My older brother.. his father did DICK from the time he left her till my brother was made senior partner in a law firm that was part of the Asbestos class action suit. Suddenly after DECADES of no responsibility and support he shows up (after signing away his parental rights to my father) and tries to weddle in now that my brother  had hit it big.

Well, that's... completely and utterly wrong.

Quote
You want to curtail abortions and such? Offer other options. I see damn little adoption reform, parental responsibility reform, shrinking child welfare and social care.

I agree.

Quote
I notice the same people who are anti-abortion and anti-birthcontrol in the US are also anti-adoption reform, screwing child welfare, and anything else that can remotely construed as social welfare and responsible social care.

I'm all for welfare, personally, so I agree.

Quote
Despite proof of things like a proper sex education program prevents/reduces teen pregnancy.

There are proofs for that? Again, if you look at what's going on in UK, you can see something completely different. They have sex education programs in schools... and yet, they still have awful problem with teen pregnancies.

Quote
Simply put.. want to reduce abortions? Teach responsibility, sex ed and birth control methods and offer them.

Again, I'm not so sure about sex ed. But birth control? I'm all for it.

That's what bugs me about Catholic church's stance on these matters, for once: they are against any abortions *and* against even basic forms of birth control...

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2012, 12:46:44 PM »
Well, that's how democracy works, right? Everyone gets a say in everything.

That's the problem.. we're not being represented.. and it could be.. Everyone has a right to be HONESTLY represented.

Quote
There are proofs for that? Again, if you look at what's going on in UK, you can see something completely different. They have sex education programs in schools... and yet, they still have awful problem with teen pregnancies.

Again, I'm not so sure about sex ed. But birth control? I'm all for it.

That's what bugs me about Catholic church's stance on these matters, for once: they are against any abortions *and* against even basic forms of birth control...

The twist with this is this.. You have to have education AND availability. When I lived in Ireland, as I have stated before, you could get birth control.. but only if you can find a Doctor and Pharmacist willing to go up against the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. (Which meant a drive of hours for a doctor.. and at least a few trips to the UK for the birth control).

When I got in the Navy.. we had a frank and somewhat blunt discussion on Sex and STDs.. till you've seen some of the things that can happen with unprotected sex .. you wouldn't believe it.

I talked to medical personnel who told me how big a problem simple STDs could be when 'protection' wasn't available when a ship came into port.

The twist side of the education is not simply teaching the MECHANICS of sex and birth control, but teaching the RESPONSIBILITY of having sex. We spend more time teaching kids the responsibility of getting behind the wheel of a car than we do on the consequences of having sex.

That was the BIGGEST problem I saw when my mom took me on her rounds and the biggest problem I saw as a Petty Officer with junior airmen. We don't teach the fact that there is RESPONSIBILITY and CONSEQUENCES.


Offline Beorning

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2012, 01:00:36 PM »
I can agree with all of this, I think. As I said, I'm all for cheap and available birth control. And I'm all for teaching people how to be responsible...

What I'd like to add, though, is that I think that the idea of abortion being available for every woman with no restriction goes against this one thing called responsibility. I have nothing against abortions in case of rape or health risk for mother... but it shouldn't be an easy way out for a woman who's got pregnant because of simply having active sex life. There are consequences to sex... and one of them - a completely natural one - is that you get pregnant because of it. You have to deal with it, if you want to have sex...

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2012, 01:18:31 PM »
I can agree with all of this, I think. As I said, I'm all for cheap and available birth control. And I'm all for teaching people how to be responsible...

What I'd like to add, though, is that I think that the idea of abortion being available for every woman with no restriction goes against this one thing called responsibility. I have nothing against abortions in case of rape or health risk for mother... but it shouldn't be an easy way out for a woman who's got pregnant because of simply having active sex life. There are consequences to sex... and one of them - a completely natural one - is that you get pregnant because of it. You have to deal with it, if you want to have sex...

the problem is.. it takes TWO people to make a baby..

Where is the father in this situation?

I went to high school in a very rural county in the sandhills of South Carolina.. in the early to mid 80s when AIDs was still largely a mystery. I was told about STDs and HIV and the 'birds and the bees' at an early age.. before we moved there. My mom was suitably worried about it.

I learned the 'plumbing' when I was 12.. (my brother learned at same time.. because of HIV). Long before I moved to SC.. My senior year.. something like 22 girls dropped out because they were pregnant.. more often than not.. the boys they were seeing BEFORE their 'accident' simply moved on.

I see very little responsibility as individuals or a culture when we put ALL the responsibility on the girl because she carries the baby to term.

Offline Beorning

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2012, 01:23:43 PM »
I see very little responsibility as individuals or a culture when we put ALL the responsibility on the girl because she carries the baby to term.

And I agree. Men should feel responsible for any and all children they father.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2012, 01:45:11 PM »
I can agree with all of this, I think. As I said, I'm all for cheap and available birth control. And I'm all for teaching people how to be responsible...

What I'd like to add, though, is that I think that the idea of abortion being available for every woman with no restriction goes against this one thing called responsibility. I have nothing against abortions in case of rape or health risk for mother... but it shouldn't be an easy way out for a woman who's got pregnant because of simply having active sex life. There are consequences to sex... and one of them - a completely natural one - is that you get pregnant because of it. You have to deal with it, if you want to have sex...

An 'easy way out?'  Did I ever say it was easy?  We are talking a surgical procedure here, even if it is outpatient, with significant risks even if done properly, never mind the back-alley methods.  Also, to cite the rest of my post:

Every woman I've ever talked to or read about who has had an abortion came to that decision after a lot of agonizing thought. We hear the right-wing extremists talk about it as though people use it as 'birth control', but I think that's a load of hogwash.  It there are people who are that casual about it -  do we really want to force them to raise a child that they care so little for? 

Offline Saria

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2012, 01:50:04 PM »
I think it's a bit simplistic to look at it that way.  Here's another factor: women have been oppressed and marginalized in various ways for a very long time, since long before "disenfranchisement" was even a word.  Long before white people and black people lived together or interacted in a meaningful way.  I'm not trying to say which is better or worse, but it's easy to see how women as a group might have internalized the oppression in a VERY deep way.
Ignoring for a moment the old naturalistic fallacy about women being "natural victims" (they're not, by the way; they may be socially conditioned to be victims, but that's social conditioning, not a biological inclination - which means that it doesn't matter how long it has been going on, all that matters to whether women or black people accept themselves as "socially lower" is the current society, not ancient history), I'd have to point out that as offensive as that would be, if it were true, for women... it also has rather offensive implications for the men.

Because that would imply that the men don't give a fart about how women are treated. Because if you want to remove women's opinions from the equation under the argument that they're going to sit back and allow governments to legislate away control of their bodies from them, that still leaves the men. And it would mean that pretty much all the men - at least the vast majority - care nothing about how women treated. In fact, the fact that they're being treated so poorly would imply that at least a sizable minority is quite misogynist (probably true) and that the rest of then just don't care (that I doubt).

To put in simple terms, if things have managed to get this bad because woman are too weak and cowardly to stand up for themselves, that just means all the onus is on the men... and they've failed because they're either misogynist or selfish and calloused.

You seem to assume that all women disagree with Akin, and that if they would just get out and vote, everything would be great.  Is that a fair assumption?  I doubt it.  Maybe if more women voted, you'd see a swing toward the liberal side of things, but that's a pretty big maybe, and there's no way of knowing how big or small the swing would be.  Maybe we should ask Ann Coulter. ::)
Really? Is that what it seems like? Because all I did was make general statements. Honestly, is it a thing around here to turn every general statement into a universal absolute? If I said, "Americans are very patriotic", would that be interpreted as "every American alive is very patriotic, without exception"? Because if not, why is it that when I say "American woman disagree with Akin" it gets interpreted as "every American woman alive disagrees with Akin, without exception"?

No, I don't assume that all American women disagree with Akin - I'm fully aware that there are misogynist women as well as misogynist men (Coulter being a very visible example). I also don't assume that all black people believe that racism is still prevalent in America, or that all of those that do will actually stand up and do something about it. Yet, look at the political climate with respect to racist comments. It doesn't take a majority to change the political climate, it just takes a vocal minority.

The numbers just don't add up. African Americans make up 12% of the US population. Let's assume that only 50% of them both believe that racism is a problem, and care enough to raise a stink about it when they see it (which is an incredibly generous estimate, because it would mean that every other black person in America is politically active) - that means that only 6% of the population would raise a stink when racism comes up in politics (ignoring other supporters for a moment). Yet... clearly their voice has a powerful effect.

Now consider that women make up around 50% of the population. Let's assume that only 1 in 10 of them believe that misogyny is a problem, and care enough to raise a stink about it when they see it (which is a low estimate, really - I would guess closer to twice that) - that means that 5% of the population should raise a stink when misogyny comes up in politics (again, ignoring other supporters), which is more or less the same as the previous case. Yet... their voice seems silent.

And those numbers are quite generous! I could make the comparison a lot worse - for example, by picking Jewish Americans, who only make up around 1.5% of the population... but I dare any politician to say something antisemitic.

And if we add in the supporters, the situation gets even worse! Because you'd have a hard time arguing that more than half of men believe women's health should be legislated, rather than under the control of the woman under the guidance of her doctor. I would assume the majority don't really care, but vaguely support women's freedoms, meaning they won't speak up on their own if misogyny comes up in politics, but when the women do (and the minority of men men who would speak up do), they would lend tacit support; at the very least, they won't support the other side.

So you see, the numbers just don't add up. I don't know what the problem is - whether it's because there's no flag or leader to rally behind, or whatever else it might be. Maybe the women just don't realize how massive their political power is. Hopefully pointing it out like this will shock some people into awareness that this is a very solvable problem, and that all it takes is being noisy.

Actually, I'd like to hear some comment on this, yes. I might be experiencing a brain freeze at the moment, but I don't see what is "messed up" about this part of Akin's reasoning. If a woman wasn't raped, but claims so in order to get an abortion, then... it is kind of wrong, right?
You're not experiencing a brain freeze, and you're not wrong - you're just not going far enough.

First of all, realize that, wrong or not, if the only way to legally and safely get an abortion is if you've been raped, some women will falsely claim rape to get an abortion. There could be many reasons why: perhaps their contraception failed, perhaps she and her partner were intoxicated at the time and forgot to use contraception or used it improperly, perhaps the relationship with their partner collapsed after she was impregnated and now she can no longer afford to raise the baby, or simply doesn't want to because the reason the relationship collapsed was because the partner was abusive... there are literally thousands of valid reasons why a woman could end up in a situation where she is pregnant but wasn't just careless or calloused (assuming you want to use those exceptions to say the woman "deserves" to be pregnant and is thus stuck with a baby she doesn't want, and to hell with her and the unwanted child), without being raped. So there are many valid reasons why a sane, responsible woman might end up with a pregnancy she wants - or needs - to terminate that don't involve rape or health concerns. But if the only option for getting one is to claim rape... what do you think a sane, reasonable woman would do? On the one hand, two lives are going to be destroyed - her own and the life of the child she doesn't want or can't handle raising (and that's not even taking into account other children she has to care for! which is actually quite a common reason for why women opt for abortion, so we're often not just talking two, but three, four or five lives - or more - that will be destroyed) - on the other, a little white lie to get an abortion. Lying about rape is the only rational option in such a situation.

That's what McCorvey did - and for those very same reasons - but in her case, she screwed up because she hadn't reported a rape early enough. (For more background, McCorvey was married at 16, but divorced the husband because he abused her. She already had two children, but her mother threw her out of the house for saying she might be lesbian and took custody of her first child. Her second child ended up in adoption. So did the third child - the one that prompted Roe v. Wade. At the time she was pregnant with that child, she was living with her father and working minimum wage jobs - and, by some estimations, clinically depressed.)

Anyway, the bottom line is that there are valid reasons why a sane, responsible woman might end up with a pregnancy she can't or won't bring to term, and if the only way to get a legal and safe abortion is to claim rape... they will.

The thing is, when those women falsely report rape, they will prompt real rape investigations. That means police will be running around chasing imaginary rapists.

But it gets worse. Because it could happen that when the women describe their "rapist", the description happens to match some innocent person... who then gets hauled in for questioning and identification. Even when the woman ultimately says, "no, not him," you know there will always be talk if it gets out that someone was questioned for rape. That means that innocent men's lives will be affected, too.

But, wait! There's more! Because the police aren't stupid. They're going to figure out that women sometimes falsely report rape to get an abortion. That means that every rape report that crosses their desk is now suspect... even the real ones. Which means that real rape victims are going to find that their claims of rape are doubted by the police! Suddenly rape cases are going to turn in circuses where the victim is on trial, being cross-examined and interrogated to make sure she's not faking it!

And then the rape and crime statistics are going to go all out of whack, police are going to start getting hostile to new rape claims (because every "imaginary rape" that gets reported, and obviously never solved, will count negatively toward the number of cases they solved), women are going to be even more reluctant to report rapes than they are now - which, by extension means that serial rapists will have a better chance of extending their streaks, which means more women will get raped... and on and on.

I may be mistaken, but I think I've read about abortion statistics in UK (where the abortion laws are very tolerant). The article suggested that women there do, indeed, treat abortions like another form of birth control - and I've read this article in a very liberal newspaper.
Citation needed. If you're referring to the Daily Mail article, the Daily Mail is a right-wing rag - a tabloid.

In general, though, the claims of "abortion being used as birth control" just flat out wrong. First of all, it's been proven factually wrong by several studies. For example: this one, a peer-reviewed study done by the Guttmacher Institute, a very respected reproductive health group.

But even without that, a moment of thought shows just how stupid the whole idea of using abortion as birth control is. Abortion is a surgical procedure. It has to be done by medical doctors, under local or sometimes general anaesthetic, usually with accompanying drugs. It's one of the safest surgeries, sure, but that's like saying an arm wound is one of the safest gunshot wounds - it's still a surgical procedure, and women not only do get complications from it, some even die. In the US, 0.6 per 100,000 abortions result in the death of the mother (according to wiki). That's the US, not some third world country with poor medical standards. In fact, this is a fact sheet from my hospital describing the risks of abortion. Note that the possibility of side effects is at least around 2%.

Why is that important? Well, because according to wiki, the possibility of side effects from liposuction is around 0.7%. So, given that liposuction is safer than abortion, if it's true that women consider abortion as a valid form of birth control, then it must also be true that people consider liposuction a valid form of weight loss. Right?

What I'd like to add, though, is that I think that the idea of abortion being available for every woman with no restriction goes against this one thing called responsibility.
That's like saying that making bone settings and casts freely available goes against people's personal responsibility not to break their bones.

Accidents happen.

I have nothing against abortions in case of rape or health risk for mother... but it shouldn't be an easy way out for a woman who's got pregnant because of simply having active sex life.
That's like saying treating broken bones and painkillers should be available for people whose bones get broken because of someone else's stupidity or a freak accident... but it shouldn't be an "easy way out" for people who break their bones while doing something of their own choosing.

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2012, 01:51:04 PM »
Notice how little work (or interest) is being invested in Male Birth control.

Look at the men pushing all this legal controls coming through. You got men like Todd Akin, or his fellow Rep from Iowa Steve King (I happen to know about a dozen girls who suffered from rape/incest pregnancies.. but then.. I had a parent in the Health industry) or people clearly pandering to a fringe element.

I knew a LOT of 'righteous' folks in high school who came on down to preach that high school was 'wasted' on women. I saw their kids, the girls always in covering clothing, no make up, long straight hair and told to watch out for folks who weren't of the faith. More than a few of these girls flinched when guys got too close..

More than a few of them just.. vanished around 16 and we'd here they were married off and quietly having kids waaaaay off in the back corner of the county. Doing rounds with my mom, I got to see them. It wasn't always pretty. 

Notice the GOP nerd-rage over the 'persecution' of Akin and their calls for his withdrawal. Right now he's still at LEAST a point ahead of his foe.. yet there is more calls for him to withdrawal. And more of them don't even bother to pretend that it's anything but 'for the good of the party'.

And from strictly my personal experience.. (which is the same thing that Reps. Akin and King use to justify their own statements).. of the dozen or so girls I've seen go to get an abortion.. not ONE of them have non-chalantly hopped about the next day like nothing happened.

One of airmen had to get councelling afterwards.. for depression. Another one changed her career plans.. saying that she felt that 'time was an issue' and staying in would 'prevent' her from finding a life she wanted to bring a child into. Her career wasn't the reason she went in for the procedure (it was a health issue) but it got her thinking. We lost an awesome tech, team leader and sailor.

I notice, aside from tools like Anne Coulter, that all these 'retro-active' birth control claims tend to come from MALE religious or political leaders.

Offline Beorning

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2012, 02:57:21 PM »
An 'easy way out?'  Did I ever say it was easy?

Well, there *are* women who are getting abortions just because raising a child doesn't fit into their career plans etc. Considering that abortion may well mean that a human being is being *killed*, that *is* an easy way out.

Quote
It there are people who are that casual about it -  do we really want to force them to raise a child that they care so little for? 

They can give it up for adoption, right?

What you're saying is that, if the parents don't care for a child, it's best to kill it.

First of all, realize that, wrong or not, if the only way to legally and safely get an abortion is if you've been raped, some women will falsely claim rape to get an abortion. There could be many reasons why: perhaps their contraception failed, perhaps she and her partner were intoxicated at the time and forgot to use contraception or used it improperly, perhaps the relationship with their partner collapsed after she was impregnated and now she can no longer afford to raise the baby, or simply doesn't want to because the reason the relationship collapsed was because the partner was abusive... there are literally thousands of valid reasons why a woman could end up in a situation where she is pregnant but wasn't just careless or calloused (assuming you want to use those exceptions to say the woman "deserves" to be pregnant and is thus stuck with a baby she doesn't want, and to hell with her and the unwanted child), without being raped. So there are many valid reasons why a sane, responsible woman might end up with a pregnancy she wants - or needs - to terminate that don't involve rape or health concerns. But if the only option for getting one is to claim rape... what do you think a sane, reasonable woman would do? On the one hand, two lives are going to be destroyed - her own and the life of the child she doesn't want or can't handle raising (and that's not even taking into account other children she has to care for! which is actually quite a common reason for why women opt for abortion, so we're often not just talking two, but three, four or five lives - or more - that will be destroyed) - on the other, a little white lie to get an abortion. Lying about rape is the only rational option in such a situation.

The problem is, it's not a "little white lie". Abortion is, basically, taking a human being's life. As such, it should be done as rarely as possible. I realize that there are thousands of reasons not to want a baby, but some of these reasons just aren't strong enough. We're talking human life here.

Quote
The thing is, when those women falsely report rape, they will prompt real rape investigations. That means police will be running around chasing imaginary rapists.

But it gets worse. Because it could happen that when the women describe their "rapist", the description happens to match some innocent person... who then gets hauled in for questioning and identification. Even when the woman ultimately says, "no, not him," you know there will always be talk if it gets out that someone was questioned for rape. That means that innocent men's lives will be affected, too.

But, wait! There's more! Because the police aren't stupid. They're going to figure out that women sometimes falsely report rape to get an abortion. That means that every rape report that crosses their desk is now suspect... even the real ones. Which means that real rape victims are going to find that their claims of rape are doubted by the police! Suddenly rape cases are going to turn in circuses where the victim is on trial, being cross-examined and interrogated to make sure she's not faking it!

And then the rape and crime statistics are going to go all out of whack, police are going to start getting hostile to new rape claims (because every "imaginary rape" that gets reported, and obviously never solved, will count negatively toward the number of cases they solved), women are going to be even more reluctant to report rapes than they are now - which, by extension means that serial rapists will have a better chance of extending their streaks, which means more women will get raped... and on and on.

Okay, but what you're saying is, more or less, analogous to "Let's abolish speed limits! People end up breaking them anyway - and catching them is an additional chore for the police!"

I agree, there are negative consequences to women making false rape claims - but that only means that they shouldn't be making them!

Quote
Citation needed. If you're referring to the Daily Mail article, the Daily Mail is a right-wing rag - a tabloid.

Actually, I think I read about it Gazeta Wyborcza, which is a so-liberal-that-it-hurts major newspaper  ;)

Quote
In general, though, the claims of "abortion being used as birth control" just flat out wrong. First of all, it's been proven factually wrong by several studies. For example: this one, a peer-reviewed study done by the Guttmacher Institute, a very respected reproductive health group.

But that's an US study. I was referring to the UK situation.

Quote
But even without that, a moment of thought shows just how stupid the whole idea of using abortion as birth control is. Abortion is a surgical procedure. It has to be done by medical doctors, under local or sometimes general anaesthetic, usually with accompanying drugs. It's one of the safest surgeries, sure, but that's like saying an arm wound is one of the safest gunshot wounds - it's still a surgical procedure, and women not only do get complications from it, some even die. In the US, 0.6 per 100,000 abortions result in the death of the mother (according to wiki). That's the US, not some third world country with poor medical standards. In fact, this is a fact sheet from my hospital describing the risks of abortion. Note that the possibility of side effects is at least around 2%.

Why is that important? Well, because according to wiki, the possibility of side effects from liposuction is around 0.7%. So, given that liposuction is safer than abortion, if it's true that women consider abortion as a valid form of birth control, then it must also be true that people consider liposuction a valid form of weight loss. Right?

Right. So what? Liposuction *is* a weight loss form, at least for me.

And anyway, I've actually talked to feminists that claimed that abortion *is* a procedure similar to nail-cutting. And I've heard feminists claim that women who need counselling because of abortions, do so only because they've been brainwashed to feel bad about them. There are people like that out there!

Notice how little work (or interest) is being invested in Male Birth control.

I know. I wish more men realized that birth control is something they should be thinking of, too.

Quote
And from strictly my personal experience.. (which is the same thing that Reps. Akin and King use to justify their own statements).. of the dozen or so girls I've seen go to get an abortion.. not ONE of them have non-chalantly hopped about the next day like nothing happened.

And some feminists say that they *should* hop about the next day. That abortion-related depression is a result of cultural programming.

Quote
I notice, aside from tools like Anne Coulter, that all these 'retro-active' birth control claims tend to come from MALE religious or political leaders.

Well, Anne Coulter is female, right? So, you should not reject her opinions just because you consider her a tool...

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2012, 03:12:43 PM »
.

Well, Anne Coulter is female, right? So, you should not reject her opinions just because you consider her a tool...

I don't reject her opinions becauses she's female. I reject them because she is a hateful spiteful oppourtunist who violates professional confidences and makes up data out of thin air, fosters hate fear, bias and refuses to accept that she can ever be wrong about anything.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2012, 03:27:03 PM »

Okay, the whole adoption issue:  Some women do choose adoption.  I'm all for that choice.  I'm also all for people choosing (there's that word again!) to keep the child. But the women that go for adoption or for keeping the child themselves generally take care of themselves through the pregnancy (if they are able to).  Now - since you are worried about the miniscule percentage that use abortion as their sole form of birth control - no condoms, no pills, no implants, just 'whoops, something took, let's flush it out and have more sex!'  How many people with that attitude are likely to limit their lifestyle while pregnant?  How many are going to try staying away from chemicals that can cause birth defects, drugs that can leave the baby addicted before it's even breathed in clean air, even maintain proper nutrition which can also affect the incidence of birth defects? 

Offline Saria

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2012, 03:42:53 PM »
The problem is, it's not a "little white lie". Abortion is, basically, taking a human being's life. As such, it should be done as rarely as possible. I realize that there are thousands of reasons not to want a baby, but some of these reasons just aren't strong enough. We're talking human life here.
No, actually, if you're talking about the foetus, you're talking about a bunch of cells that could, one day, if allowed to develop, become human life. The real human life at risk in the abortion question is the one you're ignoring - the woman.

Okay, but what you're saying is, more or less, analogous to "Let's abolish speed limits! People end up breaking them anyway - and catching them is an additional chore for the police!"
None of that makes any sense, especially as an analogy to what I said. What I said was that if you make it so that an act that people occasionally have to do in order for their life (and the lives of those they are responsible for) to not be overturned can only be done if a crime is reported, then people are going to lie and report false crimes to get that necessary thing done. How is that related to abolishing speed limits?

If you want a real analogy, then try this: people occasionally have to declare bankruptcy because they're in too much debt, so if the only way you were allowed to declare bankruptcy were in cases where you were actually robbed, people are going to report false robberies. So... what is your take away from that? That we should no longer make theft illegal?

I agree, there are negative consequences to women making false rape claims - but that only means that they shouldn't be making them!
Is that what it means? Why doesn't it mean that we shouldn't make it necessary to report a rape to get an abortion?

Actually, I think I read about it Gazeta Wyborcza, which is a so-liberal-that-it-hurts major newspaper  ;)

But that's an US study. I was referring to the UK situation.
Were they quoting the Daily Mail article? Because they certainly weren't quoting any legitimate, peer-reviewed research on the topic.

Cite the study that Gazeta Wyborcza, and let's see if it's really a legitimate, peer-reviewed study that says what you say it says.

Right. So what? Liposuction *is* a weight loss form, at least for me.
You would seriously consider getting a liposuction to lose some weight? Bear in mind, I'm not talking about cases where it's medically necessary - that is, where you're so obese your health is at risk - because that would be analogous to an abortion when the woman's health is at risk. I'm talking about cases where you're a few pounds overweight but can't be arsed to diet or work out. I'm talking about logic like, "well, I can eat all I want, because if I get overweight, I can just go get a liposuction". You would seriously consider that a legitimate attitude? Because that's crazy. (In fact, I mean it's literally crazy - as in, if you could actually prove someone were doing this, you could probably get them committed, for their own safety.)

And anyway, I've actually talked to feminists that claimed that abortion *is* a procedure similar to nail-cutting. And I've heard feminists claim that women who need counselling because of abortions, do so only because they've been brainwashed to feel bad about them. There are people like that out there!
Abortion is only "similar" to nail cutting in that you're just shaving away a few cells, not killing a person, as anti-abortion activists like to claim. But it's still surgery. You don't need a medical doctor, anaesthetics or prescription drugs to cut your nails.

As for the rest, citation needed, really, because no feminist would tell a woman who was forced to give up her baby to just suck it up because the patriarchy is making them feel bad.

It is almost certainly true that part of the reason women feel so uncomfortable about choosing abortion is because of social pressure, but that doesn't mean that it's "only because they've been brainwashed to feel bad about them". That's absolutely ridiculous, not to mention it flies in the face of what the actual research (which I quoted in the previous message) shows. The reality is that roughly the same percentage of women get abortions in countries that deplore abortion as in countries that don't. In plain English: even when there are no laws against abortion at all, women get them at roughly the same rate as in countries where there are restrictions. Which means that social pressure really isn't that big a factor. (And which also means that making abortion legal doesn't cause any more women to use it than they would otherwise. Which goes toward proving that the claims of women using it for birth control are specious.)

Well, Anne Coulter is female, right? So, you should not reject her opinions just because you consider her a tool...
No, actually, that's precisely why we should reject her opinions. There is no reason we should consider the opinions of someone who is talking right out of their ass just because she happens to be a woman.

Offline Torch

  • Pay no attention to the woman behind the curtain/Trieste's sarcasm buddy
  • Suspended
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2009
  • Location: USA
  • Gender: Female
  • "Soul meets soul on lovers' lips." P.B. Shelley
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2012, 03:58:42 PM »
I realize that there are thousands of reasons not to want a baby, but some of these reasons just aren't strong enough.

The point you are missing is that you don't get to make that determination, you don't get to decide which reasons are "good enough".

The only person who can make that determination is the woman herself. While she may have the advice of her physician or her partner, she alone makes the final determination.

Not you, not me, not anyone else.

Which is how it should be. Period.

Offline Will

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2012, 06:32:31 PM »
Ignoring for a moment the old naturalistic fallacy about women being "natural victims" (they're not, by the way; they may be socially conditioned to be victims, but that's social conditioning, not a biological inclination - which means that it doesn't matter how long it has been going on, all that matters to whether women or black people accept themselves as "socially lower" is the current society, not ancient history), I'd have to point out that as offensive as that would be, if it were true, for women... it also has rather offensive implications for the men.

Yes, by all means, let's ignore that, because I didn't mention it to begin with.

You're absolutely right; it's social conditioning.  And it's pretty thorough, and it affects men just as much as women.  Just like you said.  So to try and describe these things in in such simple terms like "Well, if women would just stand up for themselves!" is kind of offensive.  It's a really complicated issue.

Just because it isn't biological doesn't mean it doesn't matter how long it's been going on.  I don't really follow that logic.

Quote
To put in simple terms, if things have managed to get this bad because woman are too weak and cowardly to stand up for themselves, that just means all the onus is on the men... and they've failed because they're either misogynist or selfish and calloused.
Really? Is that what it seems like? Because all I did was make general statements. Honestly, is it a thing around here to turn every general statement into a universal absolute? If I said, "Americans are very patriotic", would that be interpreted as "every American alive is very patriotic, without exception"? Because if not, why is it that when I say "American woman disagree with Akin" it gets interpreted as "every American woman alive disagrees with Akin, without exception"?

Yeah, actually, that's kind of how it goes around here.  If you make blanket statements without qualifying them, people are going to call you on it.

Quote

You're just repeating what you've already said.  Black people have a more pointed voice in politics than women, despite making up less of the population.  I'm not even arguing whether or not that's true.  I've pointed out to you a possible reason for it, and if you disagree, that's fine. 

Well, that's how democracy works, right? Everyone gets a say in everything.

Not everything goes up for a vote, you know.  Some things aren't your business to begin with, even in a democracy.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 06:34:40 PM by Will »

Offline Serephino

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2012, 06:38:24 PM »
Okay, the whole adoption issue:  Some women do choose adoption.  I'm all for that choice.  I'm also all for people choosing (there's that word again!) to keep the child. But the women that go for adoption or for keeping the child themselves generally take care of themselves through the pregnancy (if they are able to).  Now - since you are worried about the miniscule percentage that use abortion as their sole form of birth control - no condoms, no pills, no implants, just 'whoops, something took, let's flush it out and have more sex!'  How many people with that attitude are likely to limit their lifestyle while pregnant?  How many are going to try staying away from chemicals that can cause birth defects, drugs that can leave the baby addicted before it's even breathed in clean air, even maintain proper nutrition which can also affect the incidence of birth defects?

This...  My old high school friend used to go give herself alcohol poisoning every time she had the slightest inkling she was pregnant.  She didn't use condoms because it didn't feel as good.  She'd get birth control, but the dumbass didn't have the brains or self control to keep using condoms for a month until it started to work.  She'd forget a day, or decide to stop taking it, but wouldn't start using condoms again.  While she was staying with us and waiting for a date she told us she thought she was pregnant.  She had the guy take her to a bar.

Well, one day it finally happened.  Her efforts to kill the embryo with alcohol poisoning failed, though she thought she succeeded because she thought the attachment bleeding was her period.  She didn't want to give up her lifestyle.  During her baby shower she'd slip outside saying she was looking for someone, and she'd go smoke a cigarette.  I think the only reason she didn't keep up with the drinking and smoking pot is her family wouldn't let her.  Although, at her baby shower, I did overhear her whispering to someone that she did get a hold of some pot. 

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2012, 09:20:18 PM »
The point you are missing is that you don't get to make that determination, you don't get to decide which reasons are "good enough".

The only person who can make that determination is the woman herself. While she may have the advice of her physician or her partner, she alone makes the final determination.

Not you, not me, not anyone else.

Which is how it should be. Period.

Yep, this pretty much sums it up.

Not only that, but undertaking pregnancy itself is not exactly a small thing, and it's not cowardly to not want to have to go through pregnancy and birth. In fact, it's only up until the last century or so that childbirth isn't a leading cause of death in women. It's still a risky undertaking. And it can still kill you. It's not taking the "easy way out" to want to terminate that, and it's not anyone's place to determine what 'responsibility' another person should have in what is a very private, very personal decision. A series of them, really.

Offline TheRedFear

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2012, 12:21:16 AM »
There's a lot in this subject I kind of want to get into. But I don't see the point in getting into the typical circular arguments.

I will say this one thing though. Rape is not rape. At least not as it exists on the books today.

There is a vast ocean of difference between a 15 year old nailing his hot(or not so hot in some cases, but hey, who am I to judge. A squirrel's gotta get his nut) teacher in the coatroom closet or the 16 year old who has sex with her 20 year old boyfriend(meanwhile nobody cared about their relationship just two years ago...), and the women who had her face beaten into hamburger meat and then endured the horrific experience of having her naked ass piledrived into the filthy pavement of a garbage-fouled alleyway while a knife was held to her throat.

Rape is most certainly not rape when those things are given anything that even vaguely resembles equivalance. Equivocating those scenarios is a heinous insult to real rape victims. The legislation to differentiate between what is and is not rape is valid legislation.

The specifics of it can and should be open to debate, but let's hop off the self-righteous politically-correct bandwagon and acknowledge that there are degrees of sex crimes ranging from relatively benign to sadistically monstrous. And everything in between those two extremes of the spectrum.

Admitting that fact does not make you a mysognist, or anti-woman, or a bigot. Nor is it indicative of a war on women, or whatever the popular buzz phrase of the week that's testing well with college focus groups is.

I refuse to be intimidated into silence on a topic that is very much worthy of discussion.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 12:23:53 AM by TheRedFear »

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2012, 12:30:42 AM »
It may not be the same, but since a 15-year-old can't legally consent no matter what the teacher looks like, it would be sex without consent which is, incidentally, the very definition of rape.

Soooooo how about some factual accuracy while you refuse to be intimidated yadda yadda?

Offline TheRedFear

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2012, 12:48:51 AM »
I consented quite vigorously when I was fifteen. A little peice of paper saying I could not do so did not stop me from doing so.

With gusto.  >:)

You may let peices of paper define reality for you. I do not. Which is the whole point of the discussion about defining rape. Not being afraid to take the blinders off, take a hard look at reality and then let reality have at least a marginal influence in defining what goes on the paper, instead of letting the paper(along with ever-so-convenient political outrage) define reality.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 01:00:51 AM by TheRedFear »

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2012, 12:59:49 AM »
So. Ad hominems never helped anyone's point, and they make you look like you're still fifteen years old and thinking he's amazing because his educator had ethics about as rigid as a slug.

If you don't have the maturity to discuss the topic at hand with maturity, perhaps you'd better return to the RP threads where the people are made up and the facts don't matter.

Offline TheRedFear

Re: GOP drinking the 'No such thing as Rape' Kool Aid
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2012, 01:06:12 AM »
If you really wanted to get technical that was probably more a straw man than an ad hominem. But a rather mild one, born more of good ol' fashioned sarcasm than any attempt to be fallacious. But if "take your ball and go home, you mean person who doesn't agree with me"(now that's how you Straw Man baby!) is your best retort, maybe I will take my ball and go home. This is getting dull and there are zombies that need to be decapitated.