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Author Topic: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?  (Read 5057 times)

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Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2012, 10:39:35 PM »
The removal and storage of eggs and embryos (necessary for in vitro) might also be affected by some of the Human Cloning or Stem Cell Research-related bills.  I was going mostly by titles to streamline my search.

Offline Chelemar

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2012, 08:29:23 AM »
Quote
I don't understand why he'd want to kill Invitro though..that don't make any sense.

The Catholic Church considers In Vetro Fertilization to be morally sinful for a number of reasons, including the fact that in the process multiple eggs are fertilized but not implanted, these eggs go on to be destroyed or not used.  The church considers this murder as they believe a child is alive and has a soul at conception.  Ryan, as a practicing Catholic would (most likely) believe the same. 

For more of the Catholic Church's stance on In Vetro Fertilization.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 08:31:00 AM by Chelemar »

Offline Serephino

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2012, 09:05:48 PM »
Did you know if you Google Paul Ryan, one of the suggestions is Paul Ryan shirtless?  I agree with that thing I saw on TV that he was picked to try and appeal to younger people and women.  He is physically attractive.  Hearing him speak makes me want to vomit, but that won't matter much to women who are more conservative and don't pay that close attention.  He is very charismatic.  He will either help, or seriously hurt, and I think it's too early to tell which.

The voucher program to replace Medicare is a problem because it would just be a discount to buy private insurance.  If you haven't tried to buy private insurance lately, let me tell you, it's a nightmare.  The best policy I could find was $106 a month, had a $500 yearly deductible, and a $2k yearly cap.  I can't afford to shell out $500 a year on medical bills, and hell, in a good year wouldn't spend that much, so they'd get a whole year's worth of premiums and not have to shell out a dime.

This is not a good year.  Twice this month I've been in the ER with classic heart attack symptoms, last Wednesday I went by ambulance which is more expensive than you'd think.  There's my $500 right there.  A whole crapload of tests were done on me both times.  EKG's and CT scans are not cheap either.  In fact, the CT scan is my $2k yearly limit all by itself.  Then I went to my family doctor, who is sending me for a stress test, an echo cardiogram, and god knows what all else.  When the hospital called to tell me when to be there they said I was going to be there several hours (hospital speak for all day). 

I have Medicare.  As crappy and broke as it is, at least I'm getting care.  What are the chances a private insurance company would approve all these tests?  Not very good.  Why?  My age.  I'm only 27, and everyone knows biological females don't have heart trouble until after menopause, right?  Thing is, my doctor saw my family history (if I don't end up with heart disease I'll be the first in my father's family), and my being overweight, and my symptoms, and he thinks something is definitely wrong here.  Someone in an office with no actual medical training would likely decide that what my doctor wants to do is too expensive because of my age.

I'm saying all this because what is really getting under my skin is people shooting off their mouths who know nothing of reality.  People talk of government death panels, but private insurance companies have what are essentially death panels, and people are okay with this because the private insurance companies are just looking out for their bottom line.  That's what a good business does.  Actually, no, the people who are okay with private insurance doing this have never been very sick, and have never had a loved one who was very sick and denied treatment because of the cost.

These attack ads on President Obama are making me very angry.  Yeah, things are still bad.  Yes, there have been hiccups.  But why is everything always the President's fault?  What about the fucktards in Congress that passed everything?  Yes, President Bush was a retard, but I'm also angry at the reps who licked his ass and passed everything he wanted.  How many times was the debt ceiling raised without a fuss under President Bush? 

From day one the GOP pledged to make President Obama a one term President.  I've heard people who know what they're talking about say President Obama's 11 year plan would have worked had it gone unimpeded, but what did the GOP do?  They threw two-year-old tantrums, twisted facts, and all kinds of crap so that when they got the majority in the House they made damn sure he didn't succeed.  Do they mention this in the attack ads?  Of course not!  They only happily point out that things aren't really any better.  We were thrown under the bus for political gain, and that really pisses me off.  What makes me even angrier is the impatience of people that allowed this to happen.  The US is the Titanic headed for an iceberg.  It's not going to get turned around overnight. 
/rant

As for Paul Ryan, from what I've seen of him, he's nothing more than a Tea Party poster boy.  The Tea Party is extreme, and extremism is never good.  What needs to happen is for both parties to come to a happy balance.         

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2012, 09:33:43 PM »
Actually Ryan is a chameleon. If you check his history BEFORE the Tea Party, he was the types they initially screamed about, now he's their posterboy because he's been 'fighting for a balanced budget' and 'protecting religious rights' over birth control.

See that's his appeal within the party.. except for us nasty 'faux republicans' who are too 'pinko' to understand that you have to regulate morality to be 'conservative' and so on.. every other faction can look at him and see SOMETHING that appeals to them. He, in my opinion, is much more dangerously deceptive than Romney is in his pledges and promises. He's not got the MASSIVE family history of politics that Romney inherited from his dad or the legacy of setting up Bain, so most folks don't realize that he's a rich guy and he pulls off the 'ah shucks' a lot better than Romney.

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2012, 10:01:38 PM »
Did you know if you Google Paul Ryan, one of the suggestions is Paul Ryan shirtless?  I agree with that thing I saw on TV that he was picked to try and appeal to younger people and women.  He is physically attractive.  Hearing him speak makes me want to vomit, but that won't matter much to women who are more conservative and don't pay that close attention.  He is very charismatic.  He will either help, or seriously hurt, and I think it's too early to tell which.

If you read the book Game Change about the 2008 election, they mention in there that part of the reason the McCain campaign staff picked Sarah Palin was because they thought she would look good on TV and YouTube and such.  Unfortunately they were too busy trying to figure out how to use Palin to counteract Obama's popularity to realize that Palin was what she was until it was far too late.

Now, I'm not gonna say that Ryan will be this election's Palin.  No, I really believe this election's Palin, so to speak, is Romney himself.  If you watch the Daily Show, you see clips about how prominent Republicans kept punting the VP nomination ball to other people.  Why?

...isn't it obvious?

I'm saying all this because what is really getting under my skin is people shooting off their mouths who know nothing of reality.  People talk of government death panels, but private insurance companies have what are essentially death panels, and people are okay with this because the private insurance companies are just looking out for their bottom line.  That's what a good business does.  Actually, no, the people who are okay with private insurance doing this have never been very sick, and have never had a loved one who was very sick and denied treatment because of the cost.

This might seem out of place, but I was recently talking to my father (a doctor of around 30-odd years) about this whole issue, and I posed the question to him: if the President of the US came down from on high and gave you the authority and power to fix the healthcare system unilaterally, no one to stand in your way, what would you do?  And he said that he had two options, both of which were reasonable solutions to the healthcare issue, but both politically unfeasible.

Option one is to use the British health system.  For those of you not in the know, the Brits have the National Health Service, or NHS.  This is government healthcare - any British citizen can walk into a hospital and have the NHS cover the cost of whatever treatment they might need.  Alongside the NHS, however, is private insurance for those that can afford it (dad mentioned the affluent and people in unions).  This is unfeasible, he explained, because your average person wants to have the same levels of healthcare quality (thereabouts) across the board, regardless of how much money you make.

Option two is Canada - the single payer system.  In Canada, everyone gets government medical insurance.  Period.  And this is politically undoable because the country's superrich feel entitled to a better level of healthcare than Joe Slobotnik who works construction.  Because single-payer would essentially negate the advantage they get by having a lot of money.

These attack ads on President Obama are making me very angry.  Yeah, things are still bad.  Yes, there have been hiccups.  But why is everything always the President's fault?  What about the fucktards in Congress that passed everything?  Yes, President Bush was a retard, but I'm also angry at the reps who licked his ass and passed everything he wanted.  How many times was the debt ceiling raised without a fuss under President Bush? 

From day one the GOP pledged to make President Obama a one term President.  I've heard people who know what they're talking about say President Obama's 11 year plan would have worked had it gone unimpeded, but what did the GOP do?  They threw two-year-old tantrums, twisted facts, and all kinds of crap so that when they got the majority in the House they made damn sure he didn't succeed.  Do they mention this in the attack ads?  Of course not!  They only happily point out that things aren't really any better.  We were thrown under the bus for political gain, and that really pisses me off.  What makes me even angrier is the impatience of people that allowed this to happen.  The US is the Titanic headed for an iceberg.  It's not going to get turned around overnight. 
/rant


Item: Everything is the President's fault because he is the most visible character (usually) out of the whole government system.  Watch (if you can) South Park's 'Dances with Smurfs' (season 13s penultimate episode) for more about this.

Now that that's out of the way...

The ultimate problem we have in government is that the process by which our elected officials try and fix the problems of our country is broken.  Used to be that the Dems would have one side, the Repubs another, and then they would come together and try and find something in the middle that everyone could live with.  Nowadays, the two parties (though the Repubs far more than the Dems) have their agenda, and their idea of compromise, as I believe Callie has said, is 'we tell you what to do and then you do it.'  Our system only works if you have the ability to compromise on the table, and that's absent and missing now.

And I hate to be the one saying this, Sereph, but maybe that big ol' iceberg is what the US really needs right now.  Vekseid (or Callie) has said that people are still going along with the everyday grind is because things aren't too bad yet.  Yes, the top one percent owns more of this country than the bottom 50%, and raising the tax rate on the top 2% would cause the same amount of revenue increase as taking half of what the bottom 50% owns - see the Daily Show for this one - but things are still relatively manageable.  Adults are having to take on multiple jobs, work long hours, have both parents (in a two-parent home) bringing home income so they can have a roof over their head, gas in the car, food on the table for the kids.

But they can still do it.  It'll be when they can't, that the average American is forced to choose between doing nothing and letting their kids starve or be homeless, or doing something, that they will act.

One last thing.  I fully believe that this country has great people who can make it work again.  I do.  I pass them every day on the street corners and in the Subways (the food chain) and in the supermarkets of America.  Because I believe that your average American understands sacrifice, and compromise, and not always getting what you want but being happy with what you can get.  The ultimate problem is that the people we've put into government to represent us are (WARNING: making blanket statement) psychopaths.  Not psychopaths in the popular definition, in the clinical definition.  People who lack any sort of empathy for others.  People who can damn well know that something is wrong for another person, but it's okay for them and therefore it's okay.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2012, 10:09:49 PM »
Okay.. one of the things that tells me we're on the road to trouble is this.

The average pay growth of salaries over the years has crept along at around the cost of living level.. or just BELOW it.

Unless you look at the upper levels (the executives and such).. which has consistently jumped over 300% in the same time frame. With less performance in a lot of cases.

Offline Serephino

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2012, 11:03:48 PM »
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151234086478327&set=a.10151233665303327.545287.304981108326&type=1&theater

Not saying Facebook is always a reliable source, and I'm not feeling well enough at the moment to go look it up, but.... it sounds about right.  And we probably are going to hit that iceberg.  Who wins the election is going to be what determines how bad the damage will be.  If Romney wins the ship is going down, and I hope that asshole goes right along with it.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2012, 11:13:17 PM »
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151234086478327&set=a.10151233665303327.545287.304981108326&type=1&theater

Not saying Facebook is always a reliable source, and I'm not feeling well enough at the moment to go look it up, but.... it sounds about right.  And we probably are going to hit that iceberg.  Who wins the election is going to be what determines how bad the damage will be.  If Romney wins the ship is going down, and I hope that asshole goes right along with it.

I'm trying to find the article I read.. but they tracked the dispartity between 'Boss' and 'worker' from the 60s on..and it's a scary change in course. They charted the 'vs. Cost of living' curve too. And while most workers creep along right there on the curve (within a few points either way).. the 'Boss' pay gets WAY out of range with the curve.

I am going to have to find it.

Offline Major Major

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2012, 12:47:14 AM »
I do remember reading somewhere that at a typical American manufacturing corporation in the mid to late 90's, an executive could earn something like 411 times the amount the average line worker did.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 01:01:43 AM by Major Major »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2012, 04:16:31 AM »
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151234086478327&set=a.10151233665303327.545287.304981108326&type=1&theater

Not saying Facebook is always a reliable source, and I'm not feeling well enough at the moment to go look it up, but.... it sounds about right.  And we probably are going to hit that iceberg.  Who wins the election is going to be what determines how bad the damage will be.  If Romney wins the ship is going down, and I hope that asshole goes right along with it.

... right in the comments of that picture is a graph comparing market value of US companies vs. Japan, Britain, Germany, etc and so forth. It's kind of misguided to compare company salaries without comparing the companies that the CEOs are fronting. It skews the data if you don't look at all the points.

Myself, I don't give a shit what Mister CEO of my company makes. All I care about, really really care about, is being able to land a job after school that will pay me enough to a) build up savings, b) pay my rent, food, bills, etc, and c) pay down my student loans within a reasonable amount of time (which, to me, is about 10-15 years at most). They can pay Mister CEO in denominations of planet colonies, for all I care. I just want to be able to put my education to use and live my life without scraping by. So in that way, pointing out what the CEO of a company makes is a complete red herring. It doesn't matter what the big shots make - it matters what the little guys make.

Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2012, 08:49:49 AM »
That one's got a 'skeptical' rating on the Snopes forum.  The real amount is still insane, but it's not quite that insane.

Here's a chart from The Consumerist, showing how both executive and average salaries have changed since 1990 (it doesn't show the initial gap - 1990 salary is reckoned as the unit for each graph) http://consumerist.com/2007/04/ceo-pay-up-298-average-workers-43-1995-2005.html

This graph is from the Economic Policy Institute, and shows CEO pay as a ratio to average worker pay.  http://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-ratio-average-worker/ (The two dips are the recent recessions and recoveries.  Note how quickly those ratios bounce back.)

I can't find the graph that Callie was talking about, but I've seen it myself.  The two salaries (while still understandably separated by quite a bit) rise in lock-step for a while, then suddenly corporate salaries zoom up at a steep angle while worker salaries lag way behind.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2012, 10:20:46 AM »
I still can't find it, but what stood out to me was the gap started about the time the 'Gecko outlook' appeared in business. More destructive short term profits such as raiding companies for assets rather than longer term growing profits.

Offline vtboy

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2012, 10:51:08 AM »
Viewed in isolation, I agree with Trieste that CEO compensation is a matter of little significance. Its mushrooming, however, is a part of an extremely troubling phenomenon over the last 35-40 years of increasing disparity between those at the upper reaches of the real income spectrum and the rest of the population. 

Real wage levels (i.e., wages measured in terms of the actual goods and services they can buy) of nonsupervisory employees in nonagricultural industries have declined by about 20% since their peak in 1972 (see, e.g., The Annual Report of the Council of Economic Advisers [2012], Table B-47), a period in which both labor productivity (Table B-49) and real GDP (Table B-2) more than doubled. While the purchasing power of wage earners was in decline, U.S. Census Bureau statistics reveal a marked skewing of income to households at the top of the heap, with income share for the top quintile (20%) increasing by about 7.5%, and income share withering for quintiles 1-4. Moreover, households with income in the very top 5% accounted for about 2/3 of the top quintile's gain.

If you believe, as I do, that the relative political and social stability enjoyed by America has been attributable in large measure to its promise of economic mobility and to the economic health of its middle class, you have to be concerned about this polarization of income. Resentments about how the other half lives, otherwise dormant, tend to emerge when families, once able to pay their mortgages, send their kids to college, get medical care, and enjoy occasional luxuries, can no longer do so. The CEO's compensation may be of little concern when rising tides are lifting all boats, but it looms somewhat larger when tides are not rising and some boats are taking on water, especially if the CEO's boat is a 160 foot yacht in the harbor at Cannes. 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 03:41:22 PM by vtboy »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2012, 11:13:52 AM »
And that is what worries me vtboy.. we're looking at a growing upper class culture of greed and grasping for more and more.. without thinking of the consequences. Our system has the potential to rebalance things.. but with so much of the leadership invested or owing these people favors/support.

It would impact very little on them to give a little, step back from the growing precipice but they seem categorically unable or unwilling to do that.

The signs are there.. the system they gamed for the last 50 years is starting to fall apart, and a GOOD businessman would accept a short term loss to restore balance in the economic system that has made them so much money. Even a leech knows a healthy host is better to feed off of. Or are these people so amazingly short sighted that they think all the history of other inequities doesn't apply to what they are doing.

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2012, 12:06:16 PM »
Two things, Callie.  One: psychopaths.  They aren't short sighted, they are unempathic.  Psychological studies have shown that psychopaths - the clinical definition - are almost to a tee, above average IQ people.  They know what's happening, they know what outcome their actions will bring.  They just don't care.  Don't care about what kind of suffering or hardship that everyone else may have to go through, as long as they get what they want, that's all that matters.  Also, a great deal of a psychopath's power comes from the fact that he is willing to do the horrendous, monstrous things that your average person, regardless of intellect, will not do.

Two: the Question.  Clearly none of these people have been asked this king of all inquiries, the armor piercing probe that ultimately reveals this quest as futile and for nought.

What is this Question?  It is simply this:

And Then What?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2012, 12:16:36 PM »
One of my favorite authors, Charles Stross, does a book series (Halting State and Rule 34) set in a near future where the concept of corporate personhood as an interesting outcome. Since the current corporations have been put to the test of a psychopathy test (some companies score very high psychopath scores) there were stops, checks and balances put into place to 'test' a company's morality (since the crash AFTER the mortgage bubble was really nasty) and that is done a personnel and company level. It's not a main point to the series.. more like a background element. I found it interesting since I don't see any realistic mechanic from ever really occurring.

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2012, 12:20:09 PM »
I don't see it ever really happening either, even if someone were to come up with how to do it.  Because goodness!  Lord knows that regulation is anathema to free enterprise and capitalism!  Why, down that road lies socialism, my friend!  And socialism is bad!

...never mind we've had socialism since TR...people didn't seem to complain about it so much then...

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2012, 12:29:57 PM »
I don't see it ever really happening either, even if someone were to come up with how to do it.  Because goodness!  Lord knows that regulation is anathema to free enterprise and capitalism!  Why, down that road lies socialism, my friend!  And socialism is bad!

...never mind we've had socialism since TR...people didn't seem to complain about it so much then...

It's only socialism if it works against your interests. Bank bailouts aren't socialist..they're 'market realignments'.

I'm not saying the companies are government controlled but that they provide 'audits' to show they are acting in a legal and ethical way. Hostile takeovers sitll happen, crime still happens.. just a new sort of paperwork.

I don't see it happening in a society like th US.. I'm not too sure about the EU.

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2012, 12:37:22 PM »
I know this is about Paul Ryan, but I'm getting a nice discussion out of this!

One of the great hypocrisies of the Republican party that I can't stand is this: they invoke Christianity and God and the Bible whenever it suits them.  Usually for things like anti-gay marriage or anti-abortion (or pro-life, as the PC Speak goes).  Things that have absolutely nothing to do with them and their own lives.  However, throw other parts of the Bible at them, and all of a sudden their supposed Christian ethics disappear.  I've seen (in person) people accuse Jesus of being 'socialist' because he simply said to take care of others, feed those who are hungry, clothe the naked, all that.

I have no problem with the Republicans being Christian one way or the other.  I have a problem when they cherry pick the Bible they claim to follow.

Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2012, 12:39:44 PM »
I know this is about Paul Ryan, but I'm getting a nice discussion out of this!

I am, too.  Feel free to carry on.  ;)

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2012, 12:45:49 PM »
I know this is about Paul Ryan, but I'm getting a nice discussion out of this!

One of the great hypocrisies of the Republican party that I can't stand is this: they invoke Christianity and God and the Bible whenever it suits them.  Usually for things like anti-gay marriage or anti-abortion (or pro-life, as the PC Speak goes).  Things that have absolutely nothing to do with them and their own lives.  However, throw other parts of the Bible at them, and all of a sudden their supposed Christian ethics disappear.  I've seen (in person) people accuse Jesus of being 'socialist' because he simply said to take care of others, feed those who are hungry, clothe the naked, all that.

I have no problem with the Republicans being Christian one way or the other.  I have a problem when they cherry pick the Bible they claim to follow.

Roll back to the link I put up earlier on Authoritarian personalities and 'Double High' Leadership personalities. There are some scary implications.

One study collected a bunch of double high types.. put them in a 'Risk' style game with diplomacy enhancements. The double highs had a tendacy to leave the game with glowing countries even when other sides were willing to meet their conditions.

Ironically in a military structure Double-highs are very effective..as the political leaders not so much. And while I think the GOP is firmly in the grasp of a cadre of double high personalities..there are democrat equivalents.. Nancy Pelosi pings a lot of the indicators from what I've read and seen of her.

Romney and Ryan both peg, to me, as DH types.. the 'my way or no way' is a good indicator. The willingness to 'piss in the pool' when you can't get your way is a clear sign of it..and Ryan has obstructed and outright hindered things when they don't go his way.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2012, 07:00:43 PM »
http://truth-out.org/news/item/10837-twelve-things-you-should-know-about-vice-presidential-candidate-paul-ryan

got an interesting interview with Ayn Rand.. I wonder how many of the neo-con's REALLY knew her outlook? Wish whoever put it togther hadn't done so many back and forth cut-takes though.

Offline OniyaTopic starter

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Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2012, 07:13:19 PM »
got an interesting interview with Ayn Rand.. I wonder how many of the neo-con's REALLY knew her outlook? Wish whoever put it togther hadn't done so many back and forth cut-takes though.

The more I learn about her, the more I wonder.  Especially when it comes to the 'We're a Christian nation, gosh darn it!' thumpers.  If they were to read some of her quotes, they'd be picking up the pitchforks and torches.

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Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2012, 07:14:50 PM »
She was reeeeeallllly anti-religion, Oni. Like, a lot.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Question for Republicans - What do you think of Paul Ryan?
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2012, 07:23:05 PM »
The more I learn about her, the more I wonder.  Especially when it comes to the 'We're a Christian nation, gosh darn it!' thumpers.  If they were to read some of her quotes, they'd be picking up the pitchforks and torches.

She strikes me as a very bitter person.. who had lost her home to the revolution and I think that shaped her life a lot. I do wonder how many of the folks that use 'Atlas Shrugged' as the icon of a perfect world would think if they followed it through a bit more.. but then the folks in office have rarely had to fix a toilet, mop and wax a floor or do a lot of blue collar work have they? Or at least the ones that use it as a model.