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Author Topic: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?  (Read 2691 times)

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Offline AndyZTopic starter

Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« on: August 09, 2012, 01:03:03 PM »
Haven't really heard too much about this yet, but apparently, Ohio passed a law so that the military members could get three extra days to mail in the votes in order to make sure every vote would be counted.  Obama's administration is suing that it's not fair to give some people extra days to vote and not others. Ohio passed a law to restrict the voting for everyone but the military from voting for three days prior to the election, and Obama's administration is challenging it.

Where do people stand on this?  I'd like to see both sides represented if anyone's decently knowledgeable on the subject, and let me know if my nutshell is off-base.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 01:24:44 PM by AndyZ »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 01:11:12 PM »
Actually the GOP has been shilling this to make the President look bad in a battleground state..

http://swampland.time.com/2012/08/07/the-dishonest-attack-on-obamas-military-voting-lawsuit/

They aren't suing to remove military absentee voter rights.. but to restore the votes of 93,000 voters (to judge by the 2008 election) eliminated by the republicans when they REMOVED the early voting provisions from the state law books.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 01:19:39 PM »
This seems relevant.

The lawsuit, filed by the Obama campaign, Democratic National Committee and Ohio Democratic Party in July against Ohio’s secretary of state and attorney general, asks for an injunction to block implementation of state laws that modified in-person early voting regulations. In the last presidential election, all Ohio residents — military and otherwise — could cast their votes in-person early up through the Monday before Election Day. But contentious legislation passed by Ohio’s GOP-controlled Legislature in 2011 limited early voting for nonmilitary residents, giving them a deadline of 6 p.m. Friday before the election. Military members and overseas civilians could still vote through Monday.

Offline AndyZTopic starter

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 01:25:26 PM »
Post edited.  Anyone know why the change was put into place?  Presumably they were having trouble verifying and counting up all the votes beforehand.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 01:39:01 PM »
Post edited.  Anyone know why the change was put into place?  Presumably they were having trouble verifying and counting up all the votes beforehand.

No.. SUPPOSEDLY the MASSIVE amount of voter registration, ID Laws, and elimination of early voting was to reduce voting costs, fraud and such. A LOT of them also have the side effect of reducing the moderate, and democrat voting segments by a variety of methods.

Strangely enough only a few dozen cases of voter fraud occur every election cycle by people coming in an voting in the polls under false pretenses.. most of the fraud that gets investigated typically occurs AFTER the voting when votes are 'lost' or 'accidentally destroyed'.

The problem with State IDs.. are several points.
-Addresses for the indigent can be a problem
-Cash costs for the IDs.
-Positive identification required to establish the ID are sometimes hard to get. (birth certificates)
-Downsizing of the venues which issues the IDs.. You can't get an ID if you're location challenged and the only issuing facility in your district was shut down and moved out of the area. (Lots of DMVs in low income areas were such down as part of 'cost reduction' despite having higher population density and access in come cases).

Not all closures/laws are a deliberate attempt to restrict voters... but they were implemented rapidly, without consideration of access equality and have had the effect of doing what can only be called as 'voter restriction'.

Early voting makes it easier for folks who work multiple jobs to get a chance to exercise their right to vote.  A national holiday on the day we hold national elections would ease tension a lot.. but for some strange reason that too has been HEAVILY and consistently opposed.


Offline vtboy

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 02:49:49 PM »
I don't understand all the broohaha about voter fraud. Could the results of our elections possibly be made worse by illegitimate votes? In fact, it may be that those who go to the trouble and risk of voting illegally are sufficiently motivated to put some thought into the process.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 03:06:43 PM »
I don't understand all the broohaha about voter fraud. Could the results of our elections possibly be made worse by illegitimate votes? In fact, it may be that those who go to the trouble and risk of voting illegally are sufficiently motivated to put some thought into the process.

The problem is that most folks think that fraud is a few furtive folks with dozens of forged voter registration cards in a dozen districts voting again and again.. or some guy with a bag stencilled with '$$' handing out greenbacks to have folks do this.

Your voter fraudster typically works behind the scenes, generating massive bundles of votes by building ballots behind closed doors with lists of names that they put into circulation after the fact (hence the phrase 'Ballot Box Stuffing'). Heres a hint.. fewer people equal fewer leaks and less money needed to do it.

All these voter id laws put into effect do NOTHING for the really massive frauds that occur.

What about ACORN's fraud I'm sure someone will say. ACORN wasn't stuffing ballot boxes.. they were getting paid by REGISTERED VOTERS signed up.. so, they were not committing voter fraud.. but financial fraud. They were trying to maximize their money, just look at the other cases of fraud being pointed against ACORN.

And let's be honest..there are districts in the country that have graveyards who vote one party or another for decades.. Counties in the south vote both sides, and we've all heard how JFK gamed Chicago to cinch his election. There are old emplaced political machines all over the country. Texas, Boston, New York, Chicago, and on and on and on.

'Voter ID' reform does little to fix the stuffing of boxes but damn does it sound good on TV.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 08:53:47 PM »
There was a news article about the statistics of tighter voting ID laws in my undergrad university's newspaper in February of this year.

Quote
Sources include the US Census and the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law, for those interested.
The 18-24 year old demographic is the most underrepresented at elections. Using the US Census Bureau's numbers from the 2008 election year, there were 28.9 million Americans aged 18-24, but only 53.3 per cent of them register to vote.

Compared with the 80.7 million Americans between 45 and 64, 70.4 per cent of whom had registered to vote, the younger demographic is highly understated.

Statistically, younger voters have a tendency to vote liberal, as do minorities and the elderly. Middle-aged voters have a tendency to vote more conservatively, especially on fiscal matters. Given these numbers, it is not a particular surprise that some particularly conservative states (such as Georgia, Texas, Tennessee and South Carolina) are moving to require more restrictive ID requirements that would have the most impact on young, poor, elderly, or minority voters.

The Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law estimates that as many as 11 per cent of eligible voters do not have a valid photo ID. These numbers include elderly voters whose licenses have expired, low-income voters that make use of public transportation rather than driving, students who attend school out of state, and the disabled.

"More than five million Americans could be affected by the new rules already put in place this year – a number larger than the margin of victory in two of the last three presidential elections," writes Wendy Weiser and Lawrence Norden in their report for the Brennan Center on the effect of the recent ID restriction legislation.

While the presidential election seems far away at this time, voting in primaries will also be affected. Primary elections are important because they determine who will be on the final ballot, and many voters are not aware that they have the option to vote in primary elections. With photo ID requirements in place, even those aware of the option may not be able to exercise it.

Currently, Massachusetts is not considering such legislation. However, students from states that are considering tighter ID requirements for voting should pay close attention to the legislation's progression. Having an out-of-state address on the photo ID shown to prove identity can bar students from voting in their home state. Registering to vote in Massachusetts also, in some cases, will be taken as abandonment of the voter's voting residency in their home state.

Tightening the voting ID requirements is mainly a conservative push at this time. It is opposed by liberal politicians mainly because the proposed legislation cuts into liberal voting populations. It could be one of the deciding factors in the upcoming presidential election.

A positive message can be taken from efforts to control and target college populations, too. For most of the last generation, elections have been dominated by the older demographic to the point that younger voters often felt ignored or inconsequential. The drive to exclude college voters is a sign that this demographic - ignored for so long - is finally worth noticing. One can hope that it means that younger people will not be overshadowed for much longer.

So... that's part of the big deal, vtboy, to answer your question.

Offline AndyZTopic starter

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2012, 09:24:39 PM »
I asked someone I know who's poor and doesn't own a car about how he handles ID.  He explained about state IDs, and when asked about the voter ID laws, agreed that you should have to show ID.  Of course, I have no idea how that works for each given state.

However, it looks like this topic is starting to run away from its original question.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2012, 09:50:13 PM »
So what you're coming across as saying there, AndyZ, is that someone said at some point that you shouldn't have to show ID in order to vote. I don't think anyone is saying that.

Also, if you wish to keep the thread on topic, please don't make what's essentially a drive-by rebuttal: "I'm going to argue the point buuuuut we shouldn't be talking about the point so let's not." Not only is it counterproductive because it makes readers want to ignore your last sentence and answer your rebuttal, but it's also slightly aggravating. And I'm saying that as a fellow poster, not as a staffer, so I mean it as a request on my part rather than "The site frowns on this so please don't do it" kind of thing. I just wanted to make that clear.

Offline AndyZTopic starter

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2012, 10:02:15 PM »
Good point on the drive-by rebuttal.  I didn't even think of that.  Thank you for pointing it out.

I'll say it this way: if anyone has a comment on the original topic, they're welcome to put it, so please don't feel it's too late or anything.

So far as voter ID, I thought that people were making the point that you shouldn't have to have IDs to vote.  Were people purely ignoring the validity of the concept just to throw down reasons why the left and right would be for and against it?  I'll admit I tend to miss those when they aren't overtly stated, so sorry for misunderstanding on my part.

I'm not very good at these, though I do love seeing the reasoning on both sides and watching how people come to agreements on stuff.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 10:41:15 PM »
The current debate about voter IDs centers around what kind of ID should be required. If you take students for an example, most students have a photo ID - their school ID. If it's issued from a state school (as mine was), it could conceivably be considered a state-issued ID. Currently, in order to register to vote, many states don't seem to require more than your social security number (there is an informational packet in PDF form, here, on the NAACP's website). Some don't require more than a utility bill in your name at your current address - although to open my utility accounts, I had to give my social for each of them. So you come back to the SSN.

So the new voter ID laws being put into place are geared at restricting acceptable ID to photo ID consisting of a driver's license or a state ID card, both of which cost money and, more importantly, time. For lower-income voters, the investment of time to go during normal business hours to a local DMV to obtain one of those forms of ID is a burden, not to mention the actual expense of ID fees (the average for which seems to be about $30, based on my quick googling of "ID fees by state").

Additionally, it seems that many of the states that are instituting these voter ID laws don't always have the statistics or the data to support the voter fraud they are claiming to be worried about. The big one right now is Pennsylvania, and Commonwealth lawyers essentially admitted in court that they haven't done any investigations into voter fraud. I'm not entirely certain how exactly they are aware that it's so widespread - I'm thinking clairvoyance. *coughs*

Anyway, the ruling about the PA voter ID law is actually supposed to come out next week, and will probably set the tone for future voter ID laws. The question in front of the court is whether the bill is discriminatory and would impose an undue burden on any one group of voters. The question will not be concluded next week, however, since whichever way the judge rules, the case will be appealed to the PA state Supreme Court. So we'll get to see this unfold over the next several months, if not a year or two.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 10:56:53 PM »
Looking at the sheer number of post 2008 'voter id/reform' laws that have popped up, almost ALL of them are in Tea Party dominated jurisdictions. Almost ALL.

Look at the people impacted with these reforms. People who are poorer, older or disabled. The laws require IDs, curtail early voting and absentee ballot requirements (which aren't areas the conservative voters use a lot of them)

Offline Chelemar

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 12:53:48 AM »
Post edited.  Anyone know why the change was put into place?  Presumably they were having trouble verifying and counting up all the votes beforehand.

The Republican party believes that Democrats, especially Obama was helped by Ohio's early voter law during the 2008 elections.  With the change in legislation (put into place by a Republican controlled state legislature) to allow only for Military personal and their families (who are in general more conservative) I  presumed that they hope for a swing that favored the Democrats will switch to favor the Republicans or at least, nullify it.   

However, the official word from the legislature is that they wish to make a more cohesive, equitable voting system.

What is odd, is that people seem to be missing that this is in reference to "in person" voting, not absentee ballot voting, which are two completely different animals. 

They are changing the "in person" voting from Monday to Friday at 6:00 PM for non-military and their families.

So... if I were a citizen of Ohio, and I had voted last year, and was not aware of the change in legislation, and had to be out of town on election day for business, I would think that I could vote on Monday like I did in 2008.  However, I would have missed my chance. 

If you check Ohio's Early voting page, it's a bit unclear.  Though it does say that the cut off is Friday at 6:00 PM, it doesn't say it under the Early Voting section where one would expect it to be.  It says it under the Absentee ballot section... after where you would request a ballot:  Voting at an early voting site

Quote
Ohio voters can vote early at an early voting site that should be accessible and allow people to cast their votes in private. To find the location and hours where you can vote early, contact your local county boards of elections. You will need to bring the following identification to the early voting site:

The last four digits of your Social Security number; or your driver's license number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, for example, Ohio driver's license, state ID card, government ID (photo identification must show your name and address); or
A copy of a current utility or phone bill, bank statement, paycheck, government check, or other government document that shows your name and current address, including from a public college or university.
Voting by absentee ballot

An absentee ballot allows registered voters to cast their vote without going to their official polling place on election day. Anyone in Ohio who is registered to vote can vote by absentee ballot. You do not have to give a reason why you want to vote absentee.

Applications by mail for an absentee ballot must be received by your local board of elections three days before the election by noon. You can also go to your local board of elections to request an absentee ballot or download one from the Ohio Secretary of State website: Absentee Ballot Request.

You can cast your absentee ballot in person at your local board of elections up until 6:00 p.m. the Friday before the election.

To me, it really does seem that instead of making things more streamlined, they are only disenfranchising some 93K voters who take advantage of the early "in person" voting absentee ability.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 01:12:48 PM by Chelemar »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 01:14:29 AM »
And notice not one word on the 93,000 voters from last cycle who would be disenfranchised and who the lawsuit is FOR.  Only the false claim that the President is trying to prevent MILITARY folks from voting.  Which isn't what the suit is about at all. 

Offline Serephino

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 02:54:09 AM »
And then there's this...

Woops! GOP Admits Voter ID Laws Are a Scam

This guy is either a complete moron who spoke without thinking, or he thinks the GOP holds too much power in the state for anyone to do anything about it anyway.  Either way, it makes me a little sick.

ID laws have become insane.  Thankfully, my boyfriend has a state photo ID, so that's easy enough to just get renewed.  However, he can't get his driver's license.  The biggest issue with that is getting his birth certificate.  Apparently he needs a whole bunch of crap for that.  It used to be you just sent them a copy of a photo ID and a money order.  Now he needs a utility bill in his name.  My mom transferred all utilities over to me, except water and sewer, which she kept in her name.  Because of his bad credit we can't get any utilities in his name without a deposit we can't afford.  If he didn't already have an ID he wouldn't be able to vote under the new law.  My grandma hasn't had a driver's license in, I don't know, since before I was born.  The kicker is she's a conservative, as are many elderly people in this area, so the GOP bit themselves in the ass a little on that. 

Until now, you just had to show some kind of ID the very first time you voted.  Then they had you sign a little card and copied it.  After that when you go to your polling place they find your name in this big book, and you sign right by a copy of your first signature I guess they use to compare.  Earlier this year I got a voter ID card thing in the mail, which confused the hell out of me.  My boyfriend didn't get one, which is even stranger. 

Offline vtboy

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2012, 05:13:39 AM »
There was a news article about the statistics of tighter voting ID laws in my undergrad university's newspaper in February of this year.

So... that's part of the big deal, vtboy, to answer your question.

My point, made at least partly in jest, Trieste, was that our electoral choices could not be made worse by the inclusion of fraudulent votes. I was not suggesting that the selective disenfranchisement attendant to added voter registration burdens is defensible.

Now, disenfranchising the entire population may be a horse of another color.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 05:25:58 AM by vtboy »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2012, 05:31:59 AM »
Sorry. I missed the joke.  :-[

Offline AndyZTopic starter

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2012, 11:32:38 AM »
If people are voting on behalf of their neighbors, though, wouldn't that be pretty much impossible to prove?

Also, if IDs are difficult to get, how are people doing things like cashing checks, renting cars and entering federal buildings?  Or should we just not have IDs for those things either?

Not going to argue that the political party most likely to gain is the one who's going to suggest things and the one most likely to be hurt is likely to fight regardless of actual situation, though I've personally always had more fun discussing the merits of such things.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2012, 11:45:47 AM »
If people are voting on behalf of their neighbors, though, wouldn't that be pretty much impossible to prove?

Also, if IDs are difficult to get, how are people doing things like cashing checks, renting cars and entering federal buildings?  Or should we just not have IDs for those things either?

Not going to argue that the political party most likely to gain is the one who's going to suggest things and the one most likely to be hurt is likely to fight regardless of actual situation, though I've personally always had more fun discussing the merits of such things.

The people affected by Voter IDs.. don't use checks anymore? I know a LOT of places who don't accept anymore. Debit cards are the thing or paying cash. Renting cars? Most of the people hit by Voter ID dont' rent cars..they don't have a driver's license.. they ride buses.  You're aiming too high at the targeted segment of the population that is effected by these laws. It's not the upper middle class that is it.. it's the lower working class who have to work multiple jobs to get by. Less time for things like driving across town/the county to get an ID that costs a bit of money. To you $35 bucks for a photo id might not be a problem, but I know folks in my complex (and in the military) who are so close on their budget that is something they take 2 months to get amount of spare change.

You're talking about folks who literally live hand to mouth. Hence the accusation of this being a 'new Poll Tax'.

Offline AndyZTopic starter

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2012, 01:28:01 PM »
Rather than blocking it because of these people, wouldn't a better solution be to allow people to get free state IDs if they live below the poverty line?  Certainly there's a lot of issues involved with not even having ID, and you should be able to get one if you need one, rather than just not requiring one for things.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2012, 01:30:52 PM »
Rather than blocking it because of these people, wouldn't a better solution be to allow people to get free state IDs if they live below the poverty line?  Certainly there's a lot of issues involved with not even having ID, and you should be able to get one if you need one, rather than just not requiring one for things.

That's a wasteful expenditure! Surely you don't expect an over taxed state to shell out funding for people who won't vote to keep the people who are in power in office? This is for VOTE Protection.. no free lunchs man!

Sorry.. Sarcasm circuit kicked in.

Honestly I don't see how some of these states could justify it after shutting down as many DMVs as they possibly can in the name of 'saving funds'.

Offline AndyZTopic starter

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2012, 02:17:25 PM »
Yeah, not really interested in playing the sarcasm game.

Logically, it doesn't make any sense at all, but politically, it becomes a necessity.  States don't have the ability to just print (or digitize) more money the way the federal government does.  So states end up promising more than they can actually give out.  They don't want to have to cut back in the areas that actually need it, so they make cuts anywhere they can.

Alternatively, if we get into how politics happens too often, it may be just a ploy to claim that they need more money.  As an insane example, let's say that you have a spouse (or SO or whatever) who spends too much money.  You force their budget down by $50, and s/he gives your children less food but spends the same amount on whatever their obsession is.  This is the equivalent of a temper tantrum and should be treated as one.

I don't know if that's what's happening, though.  I've heard about some places, though, where they get rid of their police force.  Even Ayn Rand, who had one of her Atlas Shrugged characters say that you only need three things from government, had police forces as one of those three.  I'd be curious to know what kinds of things they kept if they got rid of things like the DMV, and how flooded the locations are with people.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2012, 02:25:59 PM »
Yeah, not really interested in playing the sarcasm game.

Logically, it doesn't make any sense at all, but politically, it becomes a necessity.  States don't have the ability to just print (or digitize) more money the way the federal government does.  So states end up promising more than they can actually give out.  They don't want to have to cut back in the areas that actually need it, so they make cuts anywhere they can.

Alternatively, if we get into how politics happens too often, it may be just a ploy to claim that they need more money.  As an insane example, let's say that you have a spouse (or SO or whatever) who spends too much money.  You force their budget down by $50, and s/he gives your children less food but spends the same amount on whatever their obsession is.  This is the equivalent of a temper tantrum and should be treated as one.

I don't know if that's what's happening, though.  I've heard about some places, though, where they get rid of their police force.  Even Ayn Rand, who had one of her Atlas Shrugged characters say that you only need three things from government, had police forces as one of those three.  I'd be curious to know what kinds of things they kept if they got rid of things like the DMV, and how flooded the locations are with people.

Unfortunately the BEST fix for the state id issue gets everyone running lockstep with each other. Particularly the civil libertarians and privacy advocates.

A National ID program would fix a LOT of problems but everytime it's brought up it gets shouted down for a myriad of reasons.. almost ALL of them dealing with the right to privacy..

Personally, I think it could fix a LOT more problems than it could cause.

Gun Permits on a national level would make it easier to track gun ownership
Driver's licenses in a national setup would keep DUI drivers who lost their license in one state from fleeing to another to get it again. (I got a friend who had a family member killed by a person who had lost their license.. three times due to lack of state communication)

Offline Trieste

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Re: Should Ohio allow three extra days for the military to vote?
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2012, 02:29:13 PM »
Rather than blocking it because of these people, wouldn't a better solution be to allow people to get free state IDs if they live below the poverty line?  Certainly there's a lot of issues involved with not even having ID, and you should be able to get one if you need one, rather than just not requiring one for things.

This is probably a good compromise, but it's still disagreeable because of the investment of time. Many government offices are notorious for their wait time, and the unpredictability of the length of time means that you have to clear a couple hours in your schedule when you go there.

All of this to exercise a basic right to vote. If someone can offer an ID such as their social security card or their birth certificate, they've proved their citizenship and should be allowed to vote. We have come to think of photo ID as the only valid kind of ID for proving identity, while forgetting that until and unless we want to start handing out photo IDs to everyone at birth - which would bring up privacy concerns, not entirely invalid ones - it is an extra burden of time and money to exercise a right.

The person is not buying cigarettes or booze.

They are not trying to drive a car.

They are not attempting to cash a check.

Those are all privileges that we enjoy that can (and sometimes do) require photo ID. Voting, on the other hand, is a right.

I believe that in order to make it more difficult to exercise a right, it is the responsibility of the government (state or federal) to prove that there is a genuine threat to that right against which we must protect. Currently, the proposed threat is voter fraud. And so far, the governments in question have not demonstrated a clear and present threat from voter fraud. Ergo, I believe that they should not be allowed to restrict voting under the auspices of protecting against voter fraud until and unless they do demonstrate clear and present threat from voter fraud.