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Author Topic: Women forced to marry men who rape them  (Read 3678 times)

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Offline ManoirTopic starter

Re: Women forced to marry men who rape them
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2012, 06:09:59 AM »
Apropos of comparative religion, has anyone watched The Zeitgeist Movie, advisably tempered by significant criticism of its historical scholarship?

It starts out with a fascinating comparative look at quite a large number of religions and unfortunately descends into some paranoid speculation, but certainly worth a look.
________________

Is it only me who wishes discussion threads more often actually achieved detached dialogue on their subjects, studded with good source citations -- i.e., fulfill the internet's function as species agora that Plato could only fantasize about -- rather than descend into prickly debates on exact language and exchanges of snarky self-justification? Or failing that, could we learn to disagree agreeably and admit we're wrong gracefully? Not that everybody here's off the rails, but enough are that focus is lost. And each know who you are!

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Women forced to marry their rapists
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2012, 02:50:54 PM »
I could, if I were so inclined, send you a pm with several different religions that do not show a jealous deity (deities), deities that did not interfere with the affairs of humans. Discussing religion and explaining my own faith is something I have done on numerous occasions since I am an ordained High Priestess. However, I am a firm believer in people researching things on their own instead of taking the word of someone else. If you refuse to do the actual work on your own then you have already closed your mind to anything anyone else can say. That is your right.

I can understand your point, and appreciate you not wanting to be perceived as pushing your religion on others.  An enviable trait, and one I wished certain other religions would follow.

Having said that, this is a debate, and when asked to provide evidence, "Google it" really isn't a rebuttal.  Methinks you could have provided some supporting evidence or links here.

Ah I see, I asked you to support your position so now I am a raving dogmatist. I really ought to have seen that one coming. Fair enough. It transpires I've done the research and every religion I've found is the same superstition and horrors in different wrappers. We'd be better off if they all closed up shop tomorrow.

I think this is painting with a rather broad brush, no?

EDIT: And perhaps you would like to provide some supporting evidence for your assertion that every religion is the same superstition and horrors?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 02:54:40 PM by OldSchoolGamer »

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Re: Women forced to marry their rapists
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2012, 05:14:27 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Iniquitous Opheliac on May 28, 2012, 11:06:16 PM

    I could, if I were so inclined, send you a pm with several different religions that do not show a jealous deity (deities), deities that did not interfere with the affairs of humans. Discussing religion and explaining my own faith is something I have done on numerous occasions since I am an ordained High Priestess. However, I am a firm believer in people researching things on their own instead of taking the word of someone else. If you refuse to do the actual work on your own then you have already closed your mind to anything anyone else can say. That is your right.


I can understand your point, and appreciate you not wanting to be perceived as pushing your religion on others.  An enviable trait, and one I wished certain other religions would follow.

Having said that, this is a debate, and when asked to provide evidence, "Google it" really isn't a rebuttal.  Methinks you could have provided some supporting evidence or links here.

I think this is painting with a rather broad brush, no?

EDIT: And perhaps you would like to provide some supporting evidence for your assertion that every religion is the same superstition and horrors?

    Myeh.  Demanding that others provide evidence again and again, is one easy way to derail an argument one just doesn't like.  In my opinion, Iniq could have done better without the "have already closed your mind to anything" part...  However, she did not spit out "Google it," either! 

    She did say she has some experience with the subject and it's possible to find more to it.  I can sympathize because it gets tiring from a minority point of view, to hear the same claims and then often enough, countless diversions to throw you off when you do respond, again and again. 

    Now whether her data is something various other people have means or skills to confirm, or a background to find any use for it if they did find such evidence...  Who knows.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Women forced to marry men who rape them
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2012, 05:30:20 PM »
I don't see how this is religion. Where in any religious book does it say a woman should marry the man who raped her? It's a LAW based on a mostly fictional book about religion, interpreted by some people to create insane laws in uncivilized parts of the world.

But insane laws are created not only over religion. The world is full with insane laws that are based on nothing more than personal motivations or beliefs of their creators. In a lot of countries it's forbidden for females to marry females and males to marry males because is supposed to be in the bible, but it just isn't. It's an old fashioned statement, hung onto by ancient regimes who are afraid to open their eyes. It's got NOTHING to do with religion although these old fashioned regimes claim it's the will of God.

Frankly, we should stop putting the blame for all bad things with religion because the ONLY thing we will achieve with that, is to empower religion even more. There's enough zealots out there and the best thing you can do about it is to ignore it.

Religion is a beautiful thing (all of them are) that inspires billions of people and gives them hope. It's the halfwitted and the politicians who ruin it and hang everything, good and bad, on religion.

Offline NatalieB

Re: Women forced to marry men who rape them
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2012, 07:59:42 PM »
Where in any religious book does it say a woman should marry the man who raped her?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

But I agree, holding religion up as evil because it has some insane laws is not judging it by the same standards everything else is judged.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Women forced to marry their rapists
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2012, 08:59:12 PM »
I can understand your point, and appreciate you not wanting to be perceived as pushing your religion on others.  An enviable trait, and one I wished certain other religions would follow.

Having said that, this is a debate, and when asked to provide evidence, "Google it" really isn't a rebuttal.  Methinks you could have provided some supporting evidence or links here.

I think this is painting with a rather broad brush, no?

EDIT: And perhaps you would like to provide some supporting evidence for your assertion that every religion is the same superstition and horrors?

First, the path I follow encourages people to do their own soul searching and educating. I do not witness to people, I do not seek to convert people, I do not hand hold. If Samnell had actually been interested in learning about my religion I would have gladly sent him a PM explaining my religion. Considering his views about religion and his militant mindset against religion, I am not going to waste my time when I have every reason to believe that he will just nitpick and become most unpleasant because I am not 'rational' and agree with him.

Offline NatalieB

Re: Women forced to marry their rapists
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2012, 09:02:41 PM »
If Samnell had actually been interested in learning about my religion I would have gladly sent him a PM explaining my religion.

Not to derail, but is that an open offer?  I did some googling when you first mentioned it but its always interesting to hear "from the horse's mouth"

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Women forced to marry men who rape them
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2012, 09:17:29 PM »
If you are interested then I will happily send you a PM explaining Asatru. I would ask that you bear with me, it will likely be Saturday evening before I have the time to write everything up and get it to you. The hours of training for my new job are kicking my rear end right now and I am usually collapsing into bed right about now.

Offline Sabre

Re: Women forced to marry men who rape them
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2012, 09:30:00 PM »
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Things to focus on in bold.  As mentioned earlier, these matters are not instances of a rapist, a victim, and a judge but all of the above plus (rather especially) the families of the rapist and the victim.  Religion is a reflection of society, and for societies where the tribe is still powerful concepts like this persist.  It does not occur in religious societies that have discarded the tribal unit for the immediate nuclear family or individual.

In the above, we have the situation where the head of the family, the patriarch, is the one who is deemed the wronged party.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 09:31:17 PM by Sabre »

Offline NatalieB

Re: Women forced to marry men who rape them
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2012, 09:45:12 PM »
@Sabre

Oh yes, I'm not arguing that.  The head of the family has lost a potentially valuable dowry (so runs the reasoning) and should be compensated.

I was just answering Dashenka's point by saying such attitudes are not quite the anti-biblical travesty that she (and frankly I) would prefer they were.

@Iniq

Thanks, I appreciate it.  Don't worry about timing - I can hardly be fussy when you're doing me a favour can I.