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Author Topic: 'Forgive the Rapist, Excommunicate the Victim'  (Read 3562 times)

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Offline vtboy

Re: 'Forgive the Rapist, Excommunicate the Victim'
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2012, 05:09:27 AM »
It was a reference to an event leading to a descriptor of the entire body as stupid, rather than the action. It was not, "the church did something stupid," it was, "since the church did this, it must be stupid," thus, "gone stupid," a state from which one is expected to see future stupidity take place due to a change in the status of the church itself rather than something indicative of a mistake with regard to a single action.

Since you are attempting some sort of profound literalism, which inconsistently includes both embellishment on the original and imputation of the author's intention, you might also have noted the remark was not even the declaratory statement you prefer to imagine, but a query: "has the church gone completely stupid?" But, don't let facts get in the way of your point.

Quote
Whether or not you think someone's belief system truly is stupid does not mean it somehow merits/is civil to describe as stupid. Thus, my response to your KKK comparison: the fact that you think it is not a system deserving of respect is irrelevant; your opinion does not entitle you to be disrespectful toward them or make rude behaviors somehow not rude because "they deserve it." That your response to this is claiming the label is "appropriate for an entire belief system" demonstrates that you're missing the point: whether or not you feel something merits respect does not determine whether your behavior toward that thing constitutes civility.

Now you've crossed the line into the condescension of lecture, made all the worse by your confusion of "missing the point" for rejecting the point. But, thank you anyway for your rules of propriety. Are you speaking ex cathedra?

Quote
The wording here is getting a bit silly, [noembed]so I think I'll use a musical aid to sum up the underlying point.[/noembed]

If you're going to call me a "dick," at least have the moral courage to say so here, rather than linking to someone else's inanity on youtube.

While it may be true that consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, it is not true that inconsistency betokens a large one.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 05:12:04 AM by vtboy »

Offline NatalieB

Re: 'Forgive the Rapist, Excommunicate the Victim'
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2012, 06:53:45 AM »
Since you are attempting some sort of profound literalism, which inconsistently includes both embellishment on the original and imputation of the author's intention, you might also have noted the remark was not even the declaratory statement you prefer to imagine, but a query: "has the church gone completely stupid?" But, don't let facts get in the way of your point.

I'm sorry but I really can't let this slide.  While you are correct that the first mention of "stupid" was in the form of a query - I actually read it as rhetorical, but I'm happy to accept you didn't - that quote wasn't written by you.  Your quote was

Quote
I'm having trouble with "gone"

I can't see any possible other interpretation of that phrase then that you doubted there was any fundamental change in the church, any transition from "not stupid" to "stupid".  You were having trouble with the usage of the word that implies there was some movement towards stupidity.

I'm certain you'll have some explanation here.  Some reason why that wasn't what you said or, if it was, what you meant.  But the fact remains that your quote was a flat out declaration that in your opinion not only was the church stupid but that it had been prior to this incident.

Facts in the way of points, consistency hobgoblins, pots and kettles abound.

Offline Shjade

Re: 'Forgive the Rapist, Excommunicate the Victim'
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2012, 01:33:22 PM »
If you're going to call me a "dick," at least have the moral courage to say so here, rather than linking to someone else's inanity on youtube.

If I were going to call you a dick, I would indeed do so directly. Rather, I was using the whimsical video to point out why your earlier stated position regarding the KKK and/or other systems you feel lack merit for respect has no grounds re: being uncivil toward them. Disliking a person's beliefs is not justification for disrespecting them; it's a reason, but that's hardly the same thing. People have reasons to rob other people, that doesn't make it legal to do so.

I'm a little confused about why you insist on trying to make this conversation about me, personally, rather than about the points we're discussing. If you could try to stay at least remotely on topic I'd appreciate it. Derailing into attacks is unproductive, though it does somewhat prove the point that attacking a thing isn't helpful for discussion, given your earlier definition for "bashing" is "attacking," so I suppose you're actually undermining your own argument by doing this.

Offline vtboy

Re: 'Forgive the Rapist, Excommunicate the Victim'
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2012, 04:30:27 PM »
If I were going to call you a dick, I would indeed do so directly. Rather, I was using the whimsical video to point out why your earlier stated position regarding the KKK and/or other systems you feel lack merit for respect has no grounds re: being uncivil toward them. Disliking a person's beliefs is not justification for disrespecting them; it's a reason, but that's hardly the same thing. People have reasons to rob other people, that doesn't make it legal to do so.

I'm a little confused about why you insist on trying to make this conversation about me, personally, rather than about the points we're discussing. If you could try to stay at least remotely on topic I'd appreciate it. Derailing into attacks is unproductive, though it does somewhat prove the point that attacking a thing isn't helpful for discussion, given your earlier definition for "bashing" is "attacking," so I suppose you're actually undermining your own argument by doing this.

When, after your condescend, first, by lecturing me about what is appropriate expression and what is not, and then by providing a link to some childish doggerel about not being a dick, coupled with the suggestion that you are doing so to ensure I get your point, I think it is fair to make the obvious inference that personal insult was intended.  I am willing to take you at your word that it was not, but how do you not recognize the reasonableness of the inference?

Offline Oniya

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Re: 'Forgive the Rapist, Excommunicate the Victim'
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2012, 04:36:34 PM »
I think it might be a good idea for people to step back, and remember to be civil - on both sides.

Offline vtboy

Re: 'Forgive the Rapist, Excommunicate the Victim'
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2012, 04:39:22 PM »
I'm sorry but I really can't let this slide.  While you are correct that the first mention of "stupid" was in the form of a query - I actually read it as rhetorical, but I'm happy to accept you didn't - that quote wasn't written by you.  Your quote was

I can't see any possible other interpretation of that phrase then that you doubted there was any fundamental change in the church, any transition from "not stupid" to "stupid".  You were having trouble with the usage of the word that implies there was some movement towards stupidity.

I'm certain you'll have some explanation here.  Some reason why that wasn't what you said or, if it was, what you meant.  But the fact remains that your quote was a flat out declaration that in your opinion not only was the church stupid but that it had been prior to this incident.

Facts in the way of points, consistency hobgoblins, pots and kettles abound.

No. I'm sure it was what I meant. My regrets for having overlooked my own nonsense.

I stand by the rest.