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Author Topic: Elliquian Atheists  (Read 35601 times)

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Offline Ephiral

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #800 on: April 04, 2013, 08:48:33 AM »
The question here has already been answered. PM's are a proven system that exist. What you need to do is demonstrate a similar system exists with a Deity, not disprove each supposed channel of communication one after the other indefinitely, because that's a never ending process with ever movable goal posts.
...and how would you go about proving this without testing each possible system? Would you assert that PMs have been proven to exist if the links and page were still there, but you had never received one and nobody had ever acted on anything you said in one?

Offline Kythia

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #801 on: April 04, 2013, 08:51:06 AM »
I'm thinking aloud here, but is that not a step backwards.

That requires understanding the nature of God to do that.  Because you can't analyse the, errr, the communication network between Man and God without knowing both ends.  Just as I can't analyse how speech works (in the physical sense) without knowing about ears and mouths and vocal chords and suchlike.

The beauty of the Templeton study was that it took a direct testable claim and tested it.  Similar ones are made in a variety of other religions.

Your idea seems to be "Find the core of the succesful method of talking to God and analyse that".  Well, that presupposes the existence of God, surely?

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #802 on: April 04, 2013, 08:59:28 AM »
I'm saying the methodology is messed up. Whats happening here is 'well, I'll PM Ephiral. See if that works. Hmmm... nope, no response from Vekseid, so I guess the Ephiral method doesn't work. But that doesn't mean Oniya doesn't work!'

This can repeat indefinitely. We can certainly continue testing usernames to reach Vekseid, sure, but how many users are on Elliquiy? Do we test each one until Vekseid responds? We can try, but first you need to ask yourself what is a PM? Maybe before we test each name one after the other we should investigate what a PM actually is, if it can be done at all.

And with a PM system, there are ways to see if a PM was actually sent, if they received it, or if and why it was rejected.

But the system in place for prayer is not like that, it's more like a blank black screen in dos.

/PM Ephiral. Hello Vekseid.

No response, just a blinking square.

/PM Oniya. Vek? You there?

Nope. Blinking square.

It's a less then desirable scenario for testing, wouldn't you agree?

And I guess that's my point really. This is a no feedback system. How the hell do you test that?

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #803 on: April 04, 2013, 09:01:16 AM »
It's not a no-feedback system, it's a low-feedback system. Presumably, if there is a successful means of communicating with a deity, you know it because it's the one that gets you a response.

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #804 on: April 04, 2013, 09:04:49 AM »
So, continue PMing usernames at random in exactly the same way with no way of refining the methodology?

Sounds like a terrible test, but I honestly don't see an alternative. Which is kind of why I find these studies silly.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #805 on: April 04, 2013, 09:07:04 AM »
So, continue PMing usernames at random in exactly the same way with no way of refining the methodology?

Sounds like a terrible test, but I honestly don't see an alternative. Which is kind of why I find these studies silly.
Welcome to science. A lot of it is repetition and paperwork. The value in this study, of course, is that it does refute the claims of at least one particularly vocal and virulent brand of aggressively religious type.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #806 on: April 04, 2013, 09:07:39 AM »
So, continue PMing usernames at random in exactly the same way with no way of refining the methodology?

Sounds like a terrible test, but I honestly don't see an alternative. Which is kind of why I find these studies silly.

Yes.  I don't think anyone is claiming we should do this.  I'm certainly not.  It seems like a colossal waste of time and money.  All I'm saying is that the test was incomplete, that it was simply one username out of a host.  I'm happy enough to call it relatively decent proof that that username doesn't work, but be wary of generalising that to untried usernames -  Islam, Kythia and, to go full circle, Catholicism.

ETA:  I think we've hammered out an experiment to test Catholic prayer.  I won't bother posting here as its something of a derailment but if anyone gives a flying **** about it then PM me.  I really enjoyed the intellectual exercise.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:10:40 AM by Kythia »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #807 on: April 04, 2013, 09:10:23 AM »
Yes.  I don't think anyone is claiming we should do this.  I'm certainly not.  It seems like a colossal waste of time and money.  All I'm saying is that the test was incomplete, that it was simply one username out of a host.  I'm happy enough to call it relatively decent proof that that username doesn't work, but be wary of generalising that to untried usernames -  Islam, Kythia and, to go full circle, Catholicism.
The data I have indicates that prayers to Kythia generally get a response, but little in the way of action. More testing is needed to call this conclusive, though.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #808 on: April 04, 2013, 09:11:18 AM »
The data I have indicates that prayers to Kythia generally get a response, but little in the way of action. More testing is needed to call this conclusive, though.

Kythia works in mysterious ways, her wonders to achieve.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:15:14 AM by Kythia »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #809 on: April 04, 2013, 09:12:06 AM »
But what if the answer is 'No.'?

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #810 on: April 04, 2013, 09:17:21 AM »
So, Tainted was ridiculing me for posting up the name of a scientific study regarding prayer and then not paying for the research in order to illegally distribute the material on the public portion of a message forum.  Ok...

There is the assumption that prayers are certainly answered.  As Kythia pointed out this is not the case for all religions.  No religion, to my knowledge, claims that if you just pray to God magical stuff happens.  Any that do would quickly be disproven with the purchase of a lottery ticket.  The experiment showed that prayer is not consistent enough to be made part of established medical treatment and in some cases can be hazardous to the patient.  In order for the experiment to show that God does not exist, there would have to be proof that prayer went somewhere in the first place.  Honestly I would equate this more to throwing a message in a bottle into the sea and then assuming there is nobody else out there because you didn't get a response.

Message in a bottle is shown not to be consistent enough for communication, but not that there is nobody else out there.

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #811 on: April 04, 2013, 09:18:00 AM »
Welcome to science. A lot of it is repetition and paperwork. The value in this study, of course, is that it does refute the claims of at least one particularly vocal and virulent brand of aggressively religious type.

Science also refines it's methodology. Changing the test and refining the test are two different things. We can change a test all we want, but without proper reasoning behind an alternation, it's not refinement.

Yes.  I don't think anyone is claiming we should do this.  I'm certainly not.  It seems like a colossal waste of time and money.  All I'm saying is that the test was incomplete, that it was simply one username out of a host. 

Then I misunderstood your stance, and I apologize. My position was that we're testing usernames out of a list of hosts that we have absolutely no reason to believe even exists, as there has been no observed phenomena, only assertions of phenomena. I think the both of us just did rather poor jobs of conveying our points ^^' Apologies again.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #812 on: April 04, 2013, 09:19:37 AM »
So, Tainted was ridiculing me for posting up the name of a scientific study regarding prayer and then not paying for the research in order to illegally distribute the material on the public portion of a message forum.  Ok...

There is the assumption that prayers are certainly answered.  As Kythia pointed out this is not the case for all religions.  No religion, to my knowledge, claims that if you just pray to God magical stuff happens.  Any that do would quickly be disproven with the purchase of a lottery ticket.  The experiment showed that prayer is not consistent enough to be made part of established medical treatment and in some cases can be hazardous to the patient.  In order for the experiment to show that God does not exist, there would have to be proof that prayer went somewhere in the first place.  Honestly I would equate this more to throwing a message in a bottle into the sea and then assuming there is nobody else out there because you didn't get a response.

Message in a bottle is shown not to be consistent enough for communication, but not that there is nobody else out there.
I don't think anybody is claiming that it conclusively proves that god does not exist. I am, however, asking: Isn't the burden of proof on the other side of that question?

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #813 on: April 04, 2013, 09:22:57 AM »
Not necessarily.  Science is not a court of law.  With law there is a burden of proof because a decision and ruling have to be made.  As anyone in the legal system can attest the truth is not always the end result of any court proceeding.  Science has the goal of finding truth or at least as much truth as we can currently test and perceive.  No claims can be made by science about the existence or non-existence of a thing until a test or study is done.  Scientists can make claims and they certainly have, yet none can lay definitive proof either way.

In science there is no burden of proof.

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #814 on: April 04, 2013, 09:27:41 AM »
No religion, to my knowledge, claims that if you just pray to God magical stuff happens.  Any that do would quickly be disproven with the purchase of a lottery ticket

John 15:7
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours

Luke 11:9
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you

Matthew 6:6
But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #815 on: April 04, 2013, 09:30:50 AM »
In science there is no burden of proof.
In science as we currently practice it, maybe not. In pretty much any attempt at solid reasoning? Yes. The more complex a claim is, the more evidence is needed to support it.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #816 on: April 04, 2013, 09:31:11 AM »
John 15:7
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours

Luke 11:9
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you

Matthew 6:6
But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you

You're actually on quite tenuous ground there Sabby, theologically.  You're far from alone on it - as I say, there are Christian denominations who believe all prayers are answered - but the fact remains.  Seems like a massive derailment - particuraly for a thread titled "Elliquian Atheists" to go in to it.  But compare and contrast what you have above with the likes of John 9:31, Job 27:8, Psalm 66:18 errrr literally loads of others.

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #817 on: April 04, 2013, 09:34:05 AM »
No, Pumpkin said no Religion claims all prayers are answered. I looked up the Christian Bible to see what it had to say on prayer. How is that derailment?

Offline Kythia

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #818 on: April 04, 2013, 09:38:57 AM »
No, Pumpkin said no Religion claims all prayers are answered. I looked up the Christian Bible to see what it had to say on prayer. How is that derailment?
But compare and contrast what you have above with the likes of John 9:31, Job 27:8, Psalm 66:18 errrr literally loads of others.

For reference, I wasn't accusing you of derailment, sorry if it looked like I was attacking.  I was saying launching into a discussion on this in an Atheist's thread would be.  In brief, though, "it says X in the bible" and "a religion believes X" aren't the same thing.  It's relatively easy to find quotes to support any position - the Bible is a huge book. 

Incidentally, "Christian Bible" is redundancy.

Edit was tautology->redundancy, because I forgot what tautology meant  :-[
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:50:38 AM by Kythia »

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #819 on: April 04, 2013, 09:39:27 AM »
I think we will have Sabby read the Bible one verse at a time.

Solid reasoning leads to some seriously flawed observations and conclusions.  This would be why scientific evidence and data is held up as a pinnacle. 

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #820 on: April 04, 2013, 09:41:31 AM »
Pumpkin, you said no religion says all prayers are answered.

I provided you examples of a religion claiming all prayers are answered.

It's pretty simple. I don't need to 'read the Bible one verse at a time' to see the hypocrisy.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #821 on: April 04, 2013, 09:43:01 AM »
I think we will have Sabby read the Bible one verse at a time.

Solid reasoning leads to some seriously flawed observations and conclusions.  This would be why scientific evidence and data is held up as a pinnacle.
A pinnacle? Hardly. It's generally fairly reliable, and ratchets ever onward to greater accuracy, but it's incredibly slow, expensive, reliant on complete data, and trusted waaaaaay too much. There's a reason Bayesian analysis is proving increasingly useful and gaining significant traction.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #822 on: April 04, 2013, 10:13:15 AM »
Considering there are at least two major religions that do not believe what is written in the Bible is literal and Kythia just brought up counter points to the quotes given, I would say you need to do some more research.  I am sure Sabby that somewhere there is a religion that believes exactly what their holy text states.  I am not aware of such a religion, hence my follow up statement “to my knowledge.”  I rarely speak in absolutes because I acknowledge that I do not know everything.

I don’t see much of a problem with being slow and reliable.  Though I will admit a belief that in the near future the scientific method will be altered and shifted along with our understanding of discovery and science.  Plus I am not well versed in Bayesian analysis to give much counter point.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #823 on: April 04, 2013, 10:22:43 AM »
Considering there are at least two major religions that do not believe what is written in the Bible is literal and Kythia just brought up counter points to the quotes given, I would say you need to do some more research.  I am sure Sabby that somewhere there is a religion that believes exactly what their holy text states.  I am not aware of such a religion, hence my follow up statement “to my knowledge.”  I rarely speak in absolutes because I acknowledge that I do not know everything.
Actually, Pumpkin... you asserted a negative here. A single example of a biblical-literalist sect is enough to disprove your point. Given that there are plenty...

I don’t see much of a problem with being slow and reliable.  Though I will admit a belief that in the near future the scientific method will be altered and shifted along with our understanding of discovery and science.  Plus I am not well versed in Bayesian analysis to give much counter point.
Setting up a double-blind experiment with a statistically significant sample size is not a viable solution to every single problem where you care about being right. More to the point, sometimes efficiency matters. Sometimes you need the overwhelmingly likely choice derived from partial data now, not the guaranteed correct choice from complete data in ten years.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 10:23:57 AM by Ephiral »

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Elliquian Atheists
« Reply #824 on: April 04, 2013, 10:28:35 AM »
Quote from: Pumpkin Seeds
No religion, to my knowledge, claims that if you just pray to God magical stuff happens

This was your claim. This is what I responded to. Nothing else. That's why it doesn't address all the other things you bring up afterwards.

I addressed your statement, directly and clearly. Please do the same when you respond to a counter point.