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Author Topic: Thank you, Mr. President  (Read 6078 times)

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Offline Torch

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2012, 07:39:22 PM »
Well as someone who lives in the UK, and makes an effort to keep in touch with what is going up with the news... Obama really doesn't get a lot of coverage, unless it affects the UK in some fashion, like a visit or alike. So no, he doesn't get a great deal of coverage from americas lacky country. So I doubt outside the UK is much better.

The Times and The Daily Telegraph both have it on the front page.

Under the death of Vidal Sassoon, of course.  ::)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 07:42:36 PM by Torch »

Offline rick957

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2012, 07:41:30 PM »
@ Shjade

:P :P :P

;)

Offline Silk

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2012, 07:42:44 PM »
Not exactly groundbreakingly significant then is it :P Madeline mccain has been on the front pages repeatedly over the years since she went missing, just to point out how insignificant stuff can make the front page in the small blurb boxes. More often than not the newspapers are clutching at straws for something to write about.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 07:46:10 PM by Silk »

Offline Torch

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2012, 07:46:11 PM »
Not exactly groundbreakingly significant then is it :P Madeline mccain has been on the front pages repeatedly over the years since she went missing, just to point out how insignificant stuff can make the front page in the small blurb boxes.

The point is the news coverage is there, like it or not, whether you believe it is significant or not.

To declare that it doesn't exist is factually incorrect.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2012, 07:47:02 PM »
That's the thing, your assuming that the outside world thinks him different enough or at least the States in general have done something politically challenging that shakes up the status quo.

From the various news sites I read?  He hasn't.  Which to other countries make him seem like another in a line of meddlers.  Not to mention that there is a lot of unrest within their own bords, so noticing any other country is really hard at the moment.

Ah Chris. Hairy isn't in the US.. he doesn't listen to our pundits..he listens to his. And being overseas when the President was running.. he had a more POSTIVE reception then..and now.

And GW Bush has mangled our clout with Europe for a LONG time to go. He ran over their issues with 9/11 and the aftermath and instead of doing a team building event like his father did he rudely and blunt put it down as 'my way of the highway'.

I dare say that we've NEVER been as low in our allies general popularity as we are today.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2012, 07:58:13 PM »
The whole "I didn't see it so thus it doesn't exist" method of thinking is not based on factual statements nor does it serve as a good basis for deductive reasoning.  Just because you, personally, are not seeing the coverage does not mean it does not exist nor does it mean that President Obama is not a figure that other global and domestic news agencies outside of the U.S. cover regularly.

Also, consider the internet for a moment.  It's a global medium.  His statements are getting coverage on the 'Web and international news networks, social networking sites and a plethora of other formats.  It doesn't need to just be on the front page of a news paper to be considered "news".  People all over cyber space talk about a variety of events happening all over the world.  I find it hard to believe that one might think otherwise.

Offline DeMalachine

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2012, 08:17:21 PM »
As someone living outside the US, I'd say that in comparison to every other world leader (home ones excluded, obviously), Obama generally gets a lot more coverage. To my eyes, anyway.

Offline Gosco

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2012, 08:21:33 PM »
I recognize that it may be something to help boost his numbers before an election but sometimes doing something good for the wrong reason is still something good.

It's good to hear a President publicly endorse gay marriage.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2012, 09:08:24 PM »
Add to the discussion the fact that not stating his opinion could work against him and those his support would benefit.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2012, 10:44:28 PM »
Welp, the Daily Telegraph pretty much says the same thing.  Obama's statement is being seen as 'damage control' by the Democrats.  Which pretty much cements what I was saying, most countries, even once considered allies think Obama is weak.

I stand corrected on his popularity.  Obviously they seem to love themselves a whipping boy.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2012, 10:55:11 PM »
Welp, the Daily Telegraph pretty much says the same thing.  Obama's statement is being seen as 'damage control' by the Democrats.  Which pretty much cements what I was saying, most countries, even once considered allies think Obama is weak.

I stand corrected on his popularity.  Obviously they seem to love themselves a whipping boy.

The media's opinion of someone does not equal the opinions of a whole nation or otherwise. "Weak" is such a broad and subjective term as well? Weak in what regards?

Offline Oniya

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2012, 11:02:33 PM »
This just showed up on my Facebook page, and I thought it spoke to a lot of the points raised here.  The second paragraph, in particular, is what prompted me to quote it.

Quote
This happened. While we were in despair after the NC vote, this occurred. Sure, maybe it's an incredibly calculated move by a cynical gameplayer who's only motivation is to get elected. Just like every other major politician and -certainly- like anyone who'll ever be taken seriously as a presidential candidate. But that doesn't matter. In fact, that makes this even more wonderful.

Because what that means is, saying this, right now, is what is going to win votes. If Obama only says what he think we want to hear, then that means some of the best people in the country at judging the mood of the American people think that -this- is what we want to hear.

We should also not underestimate the power of Obama's position as the most powerful, the most listened to pundit in the country. His psotion [sic] as president gives him unparallelled ability to shape, as well as respond to, public opinion. That's why, even if the man has -done- terrible things, what he -says- does actually matter. Maybe not as much as what he's done, and believe me I'd rather a less bought president, but it -does- matter.

And so, this is cause for at least a -little- celebration.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2012, 11:04:08 PM »
The media's opinion of someone does not equal the opinions of a whole nation or otherwise. "Weak" is such a broad and subjective term as well? Weak in what regards?
Indecisive, which I'm sure most everyone will agree that as a trait, it is undesirable in a leader.  So far, they (the international papers) seem content at portraying Obama as a man ruled by his party, especially given how he flip flopped over a statement he made in 2004 (yes, I know, this makes no sense to me either.)  See the issue so far, is that it seems Obama is content on following what his predecessors have set up.  He's more or less seen as Damage Control.  After the changes that the Bush Admin caused, for good or ill, Obama is just...  There.

This is the impression I'm getting from the news agencies.  Admittedly, how he's being portrayed isn't helping either, but so far he's not made any decision that hasn't been caused by someone else.  Or so the newsies seem intent on claiming.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2012, 11:16:22 PM »
There is really no difference in the way any president is treated by the media except for the positive or negative aspect of the editorial position of the outlet.

For eight years Bush was the golden boy at Fox now it's Romney.  They treat Mr. Obama badly.  The reverse could be said for outlets that support the left.

It never changes.  I let the media mumble, moan and groan, shout, crow and sing and then listen to the candidate as much as possible and make up my own mind. 


Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2012, 11:30:53 PM »
There is really no difference in the way any president is treated by the media except for the positive or negative aspect of the editorial position of the outlet.

For eight years Bush was the golden boy at Fox now it's Romney.  They treat Mr. Obama badly.  The reverse could be said for outlets that support the left.

It never changes.  I let the media mumble, moan and groan, shout, crow and sing and then listen to the candidate as much as possible and make up my own mind.

Well said.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2012, 11:34:32 PM »
Indecisive, which I'm sure most everyone will agree that as a trait, it is undesirable in a leader.  So far, they (the international papers) seem content at portraying Obama as a man ruled by his party, especially given how he flip flopped over a statement he made in 2004 (yes, I know, this makes no sense to me either.)  See the issue so far, is that it seems Obama is content on following what his predecessors have set up.  He's more or less seen as Damage Control.  After the changes that the Bush Admin caused, for good or ill, Obama is just...  There.



Since Mr. Bush has now been brought into the discussion, I'd like to point out that a *lot* of what Bush was doing and saying during his second presidential term, and especially his last two years, was perceived as not very skilful damage control of a botched presidency, as jumping along from one piece of turf in the marsh to another one: as flip-flopping, evasive moves and kicking the can down the road. It was seen that way by so very many people, and by much of the media, both outside the U.S. (especially) and within it. The guy was not seen as firm in his purpose, or as well-informed or honest, anywhere outside of the U.S. in his last years at the White House - except in some neo-con circles. He was perceived as a casualty of his own years way before 2008.

And like it or not, to some degree the comparison with Bush, and the handling of the Bush legacy, are going to influence how Obama is perceived and judged for many years ahead (less with "LGBT questions" specifically than in many other fields though). That's not something I think is completely fair, but it's just...there, I would say: it's a fact.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:43:45 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Gosco

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2012, 11:48:54 PM »
I think any information you take from a large media source has be taken with a grain of salt. Question things. Everything. Nothing should be fact because someone told you.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2012, 11:52:54 PM »
I'm obviously not articulating what I'm trying to say very well.  What happens within the U.S.  How you people view him, via the news outlets, is not what I'm discussing.  It's the more international aspects.

Say what you will about Bush, he was decisive.  Even if the choices he made were wrong, he acted on them.  In fact, most of the damage control was due to him doing or saying something that the rest of his party was trying NOT to have happen.

But Obama?  He's being depicted as a PR man.  A guy who walks around shaking hands, smiling for the camera and then moving on to the next public relations event.  He's rarely seen as actually DOING something, or if he is, it's more of a stopgap or sticking a finger into a hole in a dam.

Bear in mind, I am NOT saying he IS ineffectual.  It's how the news outlets outside the U.S. seem to be portraying him.  As let's face it, although the President saying something is important, so are the news agencies.  In fact a lot of people put more stock into the news because reporters are seen as unbiased and can only speak truths (Which is a total and complete falsehood, see FOX News and CNN.)

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2012, 12:04:41 AM »
I think that the fact that there is a worldwide opinion of the POTUS speaks for the power of the position in itself. After all, can someone from an entirely different continent name the head of government in, say, Brazil? How about Ghana? Bulgaria?

How many people can name the Canadian Prime Minister off the top of their heads, let alone form an opinion about them?

I think that the POTUS is far from irrelevant. He is many things, and he is seen as many more things, but irrelevant is not one of them.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2012, 12:32:10 AM »
I'm obviously not articulating what I'm trying to say very well.  What happens within the U.S.  How you people view him, via the news outlets, is not what I'm discussing.  It's the more international aspects.

Well, if you're referring to the gay marriage issue specifically here, no, I don't see hundreds of millions of people outside the U.S. viewing Obama's endorsement as a statement that matters a great deal internationally. It's more seen as part of an effort to make the U.S. "catch up" with the wider world, ridding herself of attitudes and laws that have become outdated. It's perceived as domectic policy, yes - and many people recognize that legally speaking, it's not something the president will be able to decide directly because it's mostly state law. The statement was a bit overdue, yes, he could have made it a year or two ago. But we all know this issue is so loaded in the U.S. that any political figure with national ambitions or a national standing has to weigh how he/she is saying things against how it will be picked up by their voters, sponsors and adversaries.

It's seen (by non-Americans) as a "home talk issue", and about the U.S. being in a political and social learning process (sorry for having to put it that way - and No, it doesn't mean casting Obama as "the Teacher"!). It's the same with the health insurance law I think, which will likely be seen as a defining part of the current term: many people see it as the U.S. coming to terms with something many other nations grappled with decades ago. Yes, that view flies in the face of the tradition of U.S. exceptionalism of course, but it's part of how it's seen - especially in Europe and Canada, but not just in those places.
 
Quote

Bear in mind, I am NOT saying he IS ineffectual.  It's how the news outlets outside the U.S. seem to be portraying him.  As let's face it, although the President saying something is important, so are the news agencies.  In fact a lot of people put more stock into the news because reporters are seen as unbiased and can only speak truths (Which is a total and complete falsehood, see FOX News and CNN.)

Many news sources and writers, outside of the U.S. as much as within, have "placed bets" on him and how he is going to perform in the upcoming elections, in foreign policy etc, and they will skew what they say to play up to those bets and estimates. Or they may have axes to grind in general politics. That's going to play a major role in what gets written and reported, that's how the news machine works.

I personally stopped believing a long time ago that "it's got to be true because I read it in such and such a paper". Even with those news outlets I see as having good quality. One just has to dig a bit deeper, and to think for oneself. And yes, the media have become overall less scrupulous, more spinny,
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 03:17:36 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Gosco

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2012, 12:36:18 AM »
For me, when someone starts to argue out of complete emotion, the argument is pretty much over. Logic has a hard time breaking through an emotional wall. Funny enough emotion has an easy time breaking through a logical wall.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2012, 02:32:09 PM »
Sadly most political discussions are started in the emotional, rather than the logical, which is why it's hard to actually debate politics.  I try to remain neutral, it's hard I admit, VERY hard, but I try.

Offline rick957

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2012, 08:58:10 PM »
Holy shit this moved off the national radar quick, at least according to the small portion of the media that I pay attention to.  Is this good news, meaning that nobody cares what Obama thinks, because the whole planet is already accepting of the notion of gay marriage?  I wish I could be convinced of that interpretation of events, but I'm too cynical to believe it.  Also I'm living right now on the border of the American South, and this is definitely not a place that is accepting of the notion of gay marriage.

Chris Brady, all I can say is, the way the story has developed seems to bear out your interpretation of events and to directly contradict mine.  I thought this was big news, but today it looks like I was wrong.  That actually bums me out, frankly.  Oh well.  *sullenly chomps his humble pie*

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2012, 10:31:10 PM »
Rick, I truly wish I were wrong.  Being right this case just plain sucks.

Offline rick957

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2012, 10:59:40 PM »
Rick, I truly wish I were wrong.  Being right this case just plain sucks.

Thanks man.  :)

Although I'll be delighted if anybody feels like putting a more hopeful, positive spin on the way that this news story has progressed.  I can imagine several more hopeful, optimistic, non-cynical ways of interpreting things; I'm just naturally too cynical to latch onto any of those interpretations first.

And, of course, no matter how the news story has been reported in the media, the President said what he said, and that will have ramifications going forward.  I hope there are meaningful and beneficial repercussions to his statements, and I hope they're all positive.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 11:05:06 PM by rick957 »