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Author Topic: Thank you, Mr. President  (Read 6067 times)

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Offline EbbTopic starter

« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 02:50:02 PM by Ebb »

Offline Shjade

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2012, 03:16:24 PM »
Quote
President Obama says his position on same-sex marriage has evolved.

...why am I experiencing this perverse compulsion to come up with a political Pokemon joke.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2012, 03:17:07 PM »
My response to that is... So what?

The Federal Government, as I understand it, has no influence over the States over minor topics like that.  It's likely just another political ploy to get votes on his side.

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2012, 03:52:35 PM »
Or it might be a response to that thing in North Carolina.

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 03:55:20 PM »
It's a controversial enough position that it could easily lose him votes in some sectors.  The 'safest' position for any politician is going to be the middle of the road, unless there's a clear (and voting!) majority on one side or the other. 

Offline rick957

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 05:39:32 PM »
My response to that is... So what?

He's the single most important public figure on the face of the entire planet, and he just openly endorsed gay marriage. 

With all due respect, whether one is for or against his position, it's naive to imagine that his position doesn't matter.  It doesn't have to matter to you personally, if that's your position, but it does matter a lot to me and to thousands if not millions of other people ... so that makes it matter. 

His position will have a huge effect of some kind on the way people think about the issue, and that effect will have a direct impact on eventual legislation, though the nature of that effect remains to be seen. 

This will galvanize people on both sides of the issue, because of who he is and what his office represents.

This is a historic development of enormous significance, and one doesn't need to like the President or his position to realize that and acknowledge it.  Even those opposed to gay marriage would be making a huge mistake by overlooking the importance of this development.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 05:51:59 PM by rick957 »

Offline Shjade

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2012, 05:55:09 PM »
He's the single most important public figure on the face of the entire planet

CEO of Microsoft?

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2012, 06:07:09 PM »
He's the single most important public figure on the face of the entire planet...

No, he's not.  He's not even a blip outside of the U.S. to most non-Western countries, and those that do know him, view the States, and by extension the President, as a fool and a meddler in things he shouldn't.  The U.S. has had a seriously damaged international relationship with a lot of countries in the last decade.  A lot of them are European.  So this?  At best is a PR stunt to show himself more open minded than his political opponents, or trying to distance himself from the North Carolina debacle.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2012, 06:11:23 PM »
Or it might be a response to that thing in North Carolina.

I'm thinking it's that. The last of the 'south' finally makes a stand on the issue.  It IS going to be an issue this time around. You'll be seeing and hearing this.

My response to that is... So what?

The Federal Government, as I understand it, has no influence over the States over minor topics like that.  It's likely just another political ploy to get votes on his side.

Federal vs State. Definitely going to draw a line. I find myself wondering how many 'Goldwater' conservatives will come down on this issue as a state issue. 

Berry is infamous for a lot of things but he did think social issues were the purview of the federal government. Of course he also said "I don't care if a soldier is straight or not, only that he SHOOTS straight.". In 1960 America that was radical.

No, he's not.  He's not even a blip outside of the U.S. to most non-Western countries, and those that do know him, view the States, and by extension the President, as a fool and a meddler in things he shouldn't.  The U.S. has had a seriously damaged international relationship with a lot of countries in the last decade.  A lot of them are European.  So this?  At best is a PR stunt to show himself more open minded than his political opponents, or trying to distance himself from the North Carolina debacle.

Why should he filch over what the first GOP dominated statehouse in 140 years in NC did? He knows where his constituents are in the state and most of them didnt vote for the change or will vote for Romney.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 06:14:20 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline AndyZ

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2012, 06:14:27 PM »
It won't let me read the last page because I'm not a subscriber.  Is Obama trying to set up a federal plan to endorse same-sex marriages, or is he just saying that it's a states' rights issue?

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 06:36:46 PM »
Why should he filch over what the first GOP dominated statehouse in 140 years in NC did? He knows where his constituents are in the state and most of them didnt vote for the change or will vote for Romney.

Probably because his political speech writers and organizers said he should.  Also, this keeps him and by extension his political party in the public mind.

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice attitude to have, but I am left questioning how much of it is real or political spinning.

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2012, 06:39:12 PM »
No, he's not.  He's not even a blip outside of the U.S. to most non-Western countries, and those that do know him, view the States, and by extension the President, as a fool and a meddler in things he shouldn't.  The U.S. has had a seriously damaged international relationship with a lot of countries in the last decade.  A lot of them are European. 

Actually that was the view of Bush.

Obama tends to be seen an awful lot better. Not that that would really be hard.

Offline rick957

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 06:43:04 PM »
Quote
CEO of Microsoft?

Shjade, you're such a clever smartass that I can't tell if you expected a serious response to this or not, but I'll give you one anyway, if only to play along, and also out of the high regard I have for your intellect.  I'll feel silly afterwards if you were just pulling my leg, though.  :)

If you're suggesting that there may be businesspeople or people with enormous wealth and influence whose public clout exceeds that of the President's, I would say that I personally disagree, although I might be convinced if you can make a strong enough case.

Off the top of my head, I would say that the historic and public importance attached to the office of the President can be seen in the fact that so many people around the world know who many U.S. Presidents were and what they did, whereas so few people know anything about what any CEO does or did, and same goes for owners of businesses.  Who are the most famous and influential businesspeople or rich people, either now or historically?  Can you name more of them than you can name Presidents?  Personally I can't.  (I would give you my lists of each, off the top of my head, but they're both embarrassingly short, and I'd rather not demonstrate how dumb I can be.  Nevertheless, the first list is still puny compared to the second.)  Actually I don't even know who the current Microsoft CEO is, because it isn't Bill Gates anymore, right?  Nathan Myrvold or something?  I dunno.

Quote
No, he's not.  He's not even a blip outside of the U.S. to most non-Western countries, and

Holy crap, you're the second person now trying to argue against the significance of the President in world affairs and/or public opinion.  I feel like I'm in France or something.  :)

Based on my limited education, my understanding is that no single figure in the world has the public clout or impact on public opinion that the U.S. President has, not even close.  The second figure on the list would be the Pope, I think, and that would be a distant second.  Also, if you want to argue about importance to the largest number of human beings, then you have to consider the distribution of world population, in which case the rulers of China and India must be high up in your list; but their importance is diminished outside of their respective geographic locales.

I'm hardly an authority about all this, and I would be glad to defer to anyone with better education or knowledge about these topics.  You'll have to say some stuff to convince me that you know what you're talking about, though.

Quote
those that do know him, view the States, and by extension the President, as a fool and a meddler in things he shouldn't. 

The fact that so many people view the USA and the President in this way is proof of its and his significance.  Disliking or hating someone is totally different from feeling indifference towards them or not caring at all about them or not knowing who they are.

Quote
The U.S. has had a seriously damaged international relationship with a lot of countries in the last decade.  A lot of them are European.  So this?  At best is a PR stunt to show himself more open minded than his political opponents, or trying to distance himself from the North Carolina debacle.

This is a valid opinion, and I respect it, but I certainly do not share it, and in fact I consider it somewhat naive and largely indefensible.  That's not meant as a personal slight.  I just don't know how anyone can become well-educated without finding out how important the actions and opinions of US Presidents have always been and continue to be. 

Am I saying that every President's every utterance is earth-shaking?  Certainly not.  But I guarantee you that most if not all major newspapers around the world will announce Obama's latest position-change in their top, front-page headline, and that's because readers will want to know, whether they're happy about it or much the opposite.  (If I'm wrong here, it's only in the placement of the headline on those pages; and I would find even that surprising.)

But, I would be very interested in hearing counter-arguments.  I don't need a treatise or a list of articles to read, but if you can just tell me a little more about what you think and why you think that, maybe I will be persuaded to agree with you, or at the very least understand your position better and learn something from the process of dialog.  No obligation, of course, just an open invitation.


Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2012, 06:47:12 PM »
Actually that was the view of Bush.

Obama tends to be seen an awful lot better. Not that that would really be hard.

That's the thing, your assuming that the outside world thinks him different enough or at least the States in general have done something politically challenging that shakes up the status quo.

From the various news sites I read?  He hasn't.  Which to other countries make him seem like another in a line of meddlers.  Not to mention that there is a lot of unrest within their own bords, so noticing any other country is really hard at the moment.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2012, 06:52:37 PM »
Significant?  He barely gets any coverage outside of North America, Rick.  That's how significant Obama is.  And when he does it's usually over some politically insignificant 'goodwill' trip to like China or someplace.

This entire NC debacle?  Not even going to show up in Canada's papers, and we're considered the U.S's lapdogs and toadies on the International scene.

Offline Torch

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2012, 07:03:16 PM »
Significant?  He barely gets any coverage outside of North America, Rick.  That's how significant Obama is.  And when he does it's usually over some politically insignificant 'goodwill' trip to like China or someplace.


Really?

Tell that to De Welt and to Le Figaro, both of whom have the Obama same-sex marriage story on their front pages.

They must not have received the memo that Obama is supposed to be insignificant.

ETA: Oh look, Le Monde has it on their front page, too.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 07:06:35 PM by Torch »

Offline rick957

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2012, 07:05:31 PM »
Quote
Significant?  He barely gets any coverage outside of North America, Rick.  That's how significant Obama is.  And when he does it's usually over some politically insignificant 'goodwill' trip to like China or someplace.

Well, this does give me a couple additional details about your perspective, so that's helpful.  If this is all you want to say to elaborate or support your positions, that's fine, but in that case, I hope someone else reading along who agrees with your positions will take the trouble to elaborate further. 

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2012, 07:12:42 PM »
Really?

Tell that to De Welt and to Le Figaro, both of whom have the Obama same-sex marriage story on their front pages.

They must not have received the memo that Obama is supposed to be insignificant.

ETA: Oh look, Le Monde has it on their front page, too.
So three papers in all the world.  That does make him important after all...

[Edit]

For the record, I speak and read French, and apparently the Le Monde article is actually 'wondering' how trustworthy his statement is, by claiming that over the weekend, Obama is effectively repeating what the VP said.  Perhaps it's a show of solidarity within the party, rather than Obama means it.  Now, this is the paper's claim.  It's also claiming that his 'position' on the matter is fuzzy and unclear.

Which to me makes me wonder just how objective this paper is.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 07:20:43 PM by Chris Brady »

Offline Torch

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2012, 07:17:44 PM »
So three papers in all the world.  That does make him important after all...

Three leading European newspapers.

I'd be glad to find a dozen more, if you like.

Your claim that Obama receives barely any news coverage outside North America is merely your opinion, not a statement of fact.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2012, 07:24:18 PM »
I read the French one, and they're not believing it, as I state up above.

And I hesitate to put the fact that the webpage has it two 'levels' down under it's own title as actually being 'front page'.  It's more than likely how they lay out the website.  Personally, I'd like to see where the hard copy puts it.  Is it still front page?  Or is it under the 'International' section that most papers have within the first three 'layers' of the newspaper.

If they're anything like the Le Monde's article, though.  It's more likely they're using this example as how 'wishy washy' Obama is.  Now, I am not saying that the other two papers are doing this.  But the French one is.

Offline rick957

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2012, 07:32:54 PM »
And I hesitate to put the fact that the webpage has it two 'levels' down under it's own title as actually being 'front page'.  It's more than likely how they lay out the website.  Personally, I'd like to see where the hard copy puts it.  Is it still front page?  Or is it under the 'International' section that most papers have within the first three 'layers' of the newspaper.

To help show good faith, I'll grant you that I may have overstated the importance of Obama's announcement around the world, by stressing that it would make the top front-page headline everywhere.  In Torch's links, for example, I've already been proven wrong about that detail, at least in a sense (web headlines vs. print).  I'll take my lumps for that. 

I stand by the rest of what I said, though, for the time being at least.

Offline Torch

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Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2012, 07:33:32 PM »
I read the French one, and they're not believing it, as I state up above.

And I hesitate to put the fact that the webpage has it two 'levels' down under it's own title as actually being 'front page'.  It's more than likely how they lay out the website.  Personally, I'd like to see where the hard copy puts it.  Is it still front page?  Or is it under the 'International' section that most papers have within the first three 'layers' of the newspaper.

If they're anything like the Le Monde's article, though.  It's more likely they're using this example as how 'wishy washy' Obama is.  Now, I am not saying that the other two papers are doing this.  But the French one is.

You questioned whether or not Obama receives international news coverage, not the content of that coverage. The stories are there, on the front page. If you need more examples, I can provide them. Even Al Jazeera has it as the lead story.

Again, your opinion is your opinion, not fact.

Offline Silk

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2012, 07:36:01 PM »
Well as someone who lives in the UK, and makes an effort to keep in touch with what is going up with the news... Obama really doesn't get a lot of coverage, unless it affects the UK in some fashion, like a visit or alike. So no, he doesn't get a great deal of coverage from americas lacky country. So I doubt outside the UK is much better.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2012, 07:36:54 PM »
As you like Torch as you like.

Again, I wonder if all these Obama articles in other papers are applauding his choice, or using it as an example as to why the U.S. is not to be trusted.  Le Monde is disgustingly biased against him.

Offline Shjade

Re: Thank you, Mr. President
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2012, 07:38:00 PM »
Again, your opinion is your opinion, not fact.

That seems to come up a lot here. ... Well, on every messageboard, really.

Sorry, Rick, I was just joking with you. ;p