You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 09, 2016, 07:43:53 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Romantic interests and the 'everyone's bisexual' thing in recent RPGs  (Read 4650 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline grdell

Re: Romantic interests and the 'everyone's bisexual' thing in recent RPGs
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2012, 07:20:12 AM »
You can call it pandering, or you can call it being inclusive.  It's pretty much up to your point of view.  And you can say that "If I were bi/gay..." if you want, but the fact is, you aren't.  So maybe you don't really know how it feels to be marginalized in the video game industry.  Personally, I'm just glad they're making an effort to include other orientations, even if it was awkward and somewhat half-assed.  It's better than nothing, I think.  It's a move in the right direction.

+1

Frankly, I'd rather be pandered to than ignored. Yes, it's condescending, but it's a step in the right direction by at least acknowledging my existence. I, for one, am pleased by gradual progress - I'm not one of those people that wants everything and wants it all now.

So how does that relate to these games? Well, the fact that these romance options are being offered at all - regardless of how well they were implemented - is seen by me as a definite step in the right direction towards inclusiveness. Was it done well? No, but that's not the point. The point is that it was done at all. It shows they're trying. And I, for one, am grateful for that effort.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Romantic interests and the 'everyone's bisexual' thing in recent RPGs
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2012, 02:45:05 PM »
I see it in a sort of quantum sense.  In essence, the sexuality of the characters is determined by a Schroedinger's Cat algorithm.  Until you observe hit on them, you have no idea whether the cat character is alive or dead gay or straight.  It's just easier on the characters than the cat to be both.  ;D

Besides, if they weren't available, there would still be fanfic written where they were.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Romantic interests and the 'everyone's bisexual' thing in recent RPGs
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2012, 03:02:28 PM »
I see it in a sort of quantum sense.  In essence, the sexuality of the characters is determined by a Schroedinger's Cat algorithm.  Until you observe hit on them, you have no idea whether the cat character is alive or dead gay or straight.  It's just easier on the characters than the cat to be both.  ;D

Besides, if they weren't available, there would still be fanfic written where they were.

Schrodinger's 34? I like it. :D

..Okay, I have to call Rule 34 on Schrodinger's Cat now.

Offline Somnifera

  • The aggressively autochorissexual xenophile.
  • Lady
  • Enchanted
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Location: Vague
  • Gender: Female
  • A mouthful of tendrils behind a civil smile~
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Did you know that the whole Schroedinger's Cat argument was actually an exercise in unsound logic to prove how silly it was to attempt to use the relationships between large scale objects (like a box and a cat) to disprove quantum theories? Most people actually use it in the opposite way it was intended. That's neither here nor there, since no one here was doing that. Anywho,

I don't see it JUST as pandering, but I do see how it could be seen as last-minute and thoughtless. However, I do find it interesting that some may feel like it's unrealistic/pandering for an array of characters to be bisexual when, further back in history before rigid rules on sexuality, bisexuality was so much the norm that it wasn't a 'thing'.

I suppose it can be seen as negative for the cast to be 'main character sexual', but the game developers are trying to give the player everything they could want. At the end of the day, that's what it's about.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Yeah, I always thought that was amusing, the same way Guy Fawkes was actually very pro-repressive, tight-fisted government, but ended up the adopted symbol of anarchists.

Offline Somnifera

  • The aggressively autochorissexual xenophile.
  • Lady
  • Enchanted
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Location: Vague
  • Gender: Female
  • A mouthful of tendrils behind a civil smile~
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Yeah, there are sooo many examples of arguments, events and people being used in debate today in the exact opposite way they were intended. It's too bad, really.

Offline Chris Brady

Personally, my characters are always straight.  Because I am, and I will not disrespect gay/lesbian person by trying to be something I am not.

Offline Shjade

Unless you think you are your characters, I'm not sure how you make that correlation.

Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
     I'm not really sure if the original idea was to focus on the "industry," or the idea of more bi in RPG's (including original player characters) in general.  So forgive me if this is going off a little...

     Personally, I have always thought characters were some take on an aspect or a part of me.  Even characters we think about whether to play and reject at present, we've gone to the trouble to try to both measure them "against," and model them "upon" ourselves somehow.   

     I don't think they "are" the player or "not" the player.  They are something of the player, something of a folk myth or media type, and something of a personal fantasy.  What combination of each, how critical they are about social issues or not, how "realistic"?  These are all up to the genre, the GM, the imagination (or effort, if you like) of the individual players.

     I also don't believe there is so much one "gay" or "bi" that everyone must be or not be.  There is a certain range of more or less common experiences, perhaps.  Allthough, being bi as an only child in a 1950's rural village is a far cry from being bi in 2010's urban New York, perhaps with many siblings...  Being bi as a woman is arguably very different from being bi as a man...  Etc.  To the point:  I don't think the line between having, or not having the experience is necessarily the same as understanding/not understanding important facets of it.

     It's always possible to worry about who will feel misrepresented...  But then, I think we have something useful to gain from working with topics we only partly grasp, too.  Even scientific knowledge is generally biased and partial -- you can either see that as "wrong" or "misguided," or you can see it as provisionally useful for certain things, if incomplete. 

     There are dozens of rather oddly formulated "historical" or "quasi-historical" roleplays here, too.  There are modern stories I don't believe would ever play out that way in life as I know it.  Some I could hardly stand to read myself, some I have no idea how (or even perhaps, why) I might produce that style given that genre...  But I wouldn't tell anyone not to run them.
     
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 05:14:07 AM by kylie »

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
I understand that some people are more comfortable playing characters similar to their own interests (especially when adult situations are involved), but when it comes to literature, it's eventually necessary for a writer to write something that is different from - sometimes completely counter to - their personal leanings.  Mark Twain wasn't black (Jim), Stephen King isn't female (Carrie), Brian Jacques was neither a brave mouse or a psychotic stoat (Redwall).

Of course, video games are not literature - not yet, anyways, and I don't see much chance of that in the near future.  I like the fact that video game writers are allowing for the possibility of the player playing something other than a straight male, but I also agree that the mechanics still need some work.

Offline Somnifera

  • The aggressively autochorissexual xenophile.
  • Lady
  • Enchanted
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Location: Vague
  • Gender: Female
  • A mouthful of tendrils behind a civil smile~
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Unless you think you are your characters, I'm not sure how you make that correlation.

I agree with this.

Offline Chris Brady

It's called immersion.  I like to try and think like the character before me, and if I get romance options in the game, unless he or she is specifically made to homosexual, I don't try to be.

Offline Shjade

Uh, no. Immersion isn't being something you're not; it's associating with a context that you're not in, imagining things that aren't real to maintain the illusion of an altered state.

It is not disrespecting people who resemble what you're immersing yourself in by claiming you're the same as they are.

Offline CmdrRenegadeTopic starter

Wow, people have said a lot of good things. 

I've just never liked the idea of "main character sexual".  The main character whether it's Shepard, Hawke, the Grey Warden, or any other are blank slates and should remain as such.  Granted, it's very difficult to plan for all tastes.  It just feels like the potential for some story-telling drama was lost.  I just felt making everyone 'main character sexual' took away from the characterization.  Maybe, this might be a better example. 

Mass Effect 2 - Samara Romance with MALE (default) Shepard

I felt the sequence of Samara ultimately having to turn down this Shepard was very well done and dramatic.  I had attempted the same thing in my playthrough and made it a bit bittersweet.  I just think by instead of developing more compelling characters of different orientations, they do this.  I think something is lost when the potential for this kind of drama isn't allowed.  That being said, I would rather see much less 'main character sexual' and introduction of more developed characters.  All things considered, I think Bioware did a great job with Cortez considering how little narrative time they had to introduce him.  This scene was one of the most heart-wrenching moments I had in the whole series.  His characterization felt very natural, not forced. 

Mass Effect 3: Steve Cortez romance #2: Recording of Robert

Online AndyZ

So, now that I'm playing ME3, I did some checking on who was and was not romanceable.  ((In ME2, I spent most of the time trying for an NPC who turned out not to be an option, and I didn't want to make the same mistake again.  Good thing I did, too, because I wanted someone who isn't an option again.))

http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-every-romantic-partner-revealed/

Turns not that not everyone is bisexual.  Some are heterosexual, some are homosexual, and some are bisexual.  Link is provided if you want to know who is who.

This might change people's perspectives some about Bioware, so I figured it was important to note.

Offline Occident

Re: Romantic interests and the 'everyone's bisexual' thing in recent RPGs
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2012, 03:21:00 PM »
Strangely, for Dragon Age I only found the heterosexuals to be interesting, both male and female. There was just this... Greasiness vibe that came from the others. Mostly because of the hair, though.

Online Inkidu

  • E's Resident Girlomancer, Dedicated Philogynist, The Compartive of a Superlative, SLG's Sammich Life-Giver
  • Lord
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Location: In a staring contest with the Void.
  • Gender: Male
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Romantic interests and the 'everyone's bisexual' thing in recent RPGs
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2012, 09:02:29 AM »
I don't see it as pandering.  Bioware just realized not all gamers are heterosexual men.  It's all about the game.  I've only played Dragon Age myself, but my boyfriend played Mass Effect 3.  Choices are good.  What if say you have a female character.  You romance another female character.  She could be bi or a lesbian.  The other women you didn't choose, who's to say they're bi?  In that game they may be straight.  The males interested in that female character can be seen as straight.

I too was pissed that my only m/m option in Dragon Age was Zevran.  I liked Alistair.  And yes, the stereotype was a bit off-putting.  I've been trying to find someone to play Alistair in a game on here.

Even if they were pandering, what's wrong with realizing what your customers want and giving it to them?  I thought the whole point of trying to sell something was to make consumers happy.  You can't make everyone happy all the time of course, but at least they tried.     

I don't see it as pandering per se, I see it as a cop out. Why  bother writing good homosexual, bisexual, or even heterosexual characters when you can make everyone swing both ways? You should be pissed that Allistair isn't gay, but not because you think he should be. Some people are just straight. Some people are just gay. To be fair you can't lesbian it up with Morrigan either. However, I think that that heartbreak is part of the experience and that bisexual characters to cover all bases is cheap writing.

Offline Occident

Re: Romantic interests and the 'everyone's bisexual' thing in recent RPGs
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2012, 09:09:23 AM »
I don't see it as pandering per se, I see it as a cop out. Why  bother writing good homosexual, bisexual, or even heterosexual characters when you can make everyone swing both ways? You should be pissed that Allistair isn't gay, but not because you think he should be. Some people are just straight. Some people are just gay. To be fair you can't lesbian it up with Morrigan either. However, I think that that heartbreak is part of the experience and that bisexual characters to cover all bases is cheap writing.
That and they do not always make the people be very believable, simply writing out the mention of sexual organs so that or gender in general so that they don't need to change any text.

Offline Florence

Re: Romantic interests and the 'everyone's bisexual' thing in recent RPGs
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2012, 05:59:12 PM »
I... honestly don't mind it either way. When a character's sexuality is firmly rooted in the character, it does seem more realistic to me. But at the same time, games are there to explore fantasy. It would certainly suck, albeit in a very realistic manner, for me to really love one romance option, only to realize far too late to start over, that I picked the wrong gender for them.

I honestly can't say much for ME3's same sex romance options, as I played a female Shepard, and... given that I've been playing it since ME1, had already established a romance with Liara, which I didn't feel my character would compromise just because she happened across a human lesbian. Once I heard Kaiden was made bi, I considered making a male character to check that out, but... figured it wasn't worth the effort in the end.

Dragon Age I am much more familiar with. My first play through was as a male romancing Morrigan (though he had a little fling with Zevran, which he called off in favor of Morrigan), but on my second time around I had a female character who romanced Leliana.

On my first playthrough of Dragon Age II, my female Hawke romanced Isabela (which I might repeat my next game, but I'm also considering Merrill).
I can't say much for the gay MALE options in either case (I love Zevran to death, and if I play through yet again, I will most likely have a male character romance him properly, but I haven't gotten around to it; and... I just honestly cannot bring myself to create a male Hawke... his voice is just so... bland and uuuuugh. I couldn't make it through the whole game dealing with that dull monotone.)

And... I honestly don't mind them all being magically bisexual. I don't agree with everyone who says its a cop out or pandering or whatever. Given the amount of backstory and personality Bioware puts into its characters, I would never accuse them of making bland characters. The effort that goes into each one means it was likely MUCH easier to make them all love interests to either gender, rather than trying to make seperate gay and straight ones. Is it a bit lazy? Perhaps. But I don't think it detracts from the game experience significantly, and I still love the characters just as much.

I mean, ideally, I would love to see an RPG where there was a plethora of love interests, gay and straight to pick from, but I can understand why Bioware may opt to do it DA2 style. It delivers more choices with less work. Instead of having the ONE gay option and ONE lesbian option, who... hopefully you like. Otherwise you're screwed. You can chose from any of the love interests, whichever suits your style. I can enjoy that. I mean, as much as I love Isabela, I'm glad Merrill is a choice, because I like the idea of my female Hawke romancing her as well.

Offline SaturnCeleste

  • Sassy Steampunk Seer
  • Lady
  • Enchanted
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Location: And I've bathed in Earl Grey--I'm really that keen!
  • Gender: Female
  • I've been around the world in eighty brews
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Romantic interests and the 'everyone's bisexual' thing in recent RPGs
« Reply #69 on: July 05, 2012, 05:37:04 PM »
*Raises hand and jumps up and down*

Pick me! Pick me!

Actually I have something to add to this discussion, I skimmed every post (skimmed is the key word) but I didn't see anyone mentioning my argument!  So I get to go now!  I'm not approved so I don't risk posting a couple YouTube threads here but what I have to say is easy.

In ME1, Bioware DID put Kaidan in as a 'bi' NPC.  BUT at the last minute they yanked it out before it was sent to the stores.  BUT they did NOT remove the dialogue they had recorded between Shepard and Kaidan.  It's very easy to set it up because ME1 still uses console commands.  The entire 'bedroom' scene was filmed EXCEPT for the sex scene (your sex changed Shepard turns back into a woman for that scene and Shiara) but the rest of the game, when you use the console command to change Shep's gender, he will have dialogue with Kaidan!  There are a few scenes after you've asked the right questions with Kaidan to have him as your romantic interest that will revert to subtitles but it is SO worth it to see male Shep and Kaidan share that first kiss!  They will even dance with each other at flux!!