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Author Topic: Obama's speech today  (Read 2361 times)

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Offline VekseidTopic starter

Obama's speech today
« on: March 18, 2008, 09:39:04 PM »
[youtube=425,355][/youtube]

I don't agree with his position on everything - I personally consider missile defense to be highly important, for one.

But I don't think America has seen a candidate like this since Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Offline Jefepato

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2008, 12:23:58 AM »
I trust politicians coming out of Illinois even less than I trust politicians in general, but the man certainly knows how to deliver a speech (and how to hire good speechwriters).

Offline rainshadow

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Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2008, 12:43:02 AM »
It's sad that having what we claim to be the most sophisticated society on the planet and yet something as trivial as race is still a big deal. And it doesn't matter who's speaking, be they white, black, purple, green, pink, turquoise. It's frankly stupid that the man should have to deal with this situation at all. I'm not a big Obama supporter (I wouldn't expect to be, I'm pretty conservative in most of my views) but the least of which should concern this nation is the color of a person's skin. There are... like... actual issues out there that still need to be addressed.

Of course I'm not jumping on his case for giving the speech. Obviously he had to address it. He had some radical preacher (his own preacher, for that matter) in Chicago goes off on a tangent... if he doesn't address it his campaign is hurt considerably more that what it should be, because people can't let the stupid things go. For some people, the damage is already done, simply because he is associated with the man.

And for clarification's sake... what White said isn't necessarily anti-American... it was more anti-government than anything, and I wouldn't necessarily call that a bad thing.

Offline NightBird

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2008, 01:13:05 AM »
I shall simply say that what I've seen in the clips of Reverend White's sermons weren't by any means inappropriate based upon the experience that black Americans of his generation survived. We have a distinct remnant of it today, as we should remember from the Jena Six and the noose hung on the Columbia professor's door not long after, but what the Reverend White lived through amply entitles him to some harsh words. He's old enough to remember segregation and lynchings and a thousand thousand daily subtle--and not-so-subtle--insults. He deserves his anger, but for the rest of the nation to accept it, we have to face the reality of what black Americans have faced, and it's not a comfortable or a pretty thing to confront. Considering how we, as a rule, tend to avoid psychological discomfort in any manner possible, it ought not surprise anyone that we'd rather call the survivor's anger excessive.

The United States claims a sophistication that is deserved most often through the complexity of corporate media's talent for self-deceit. We allowed Cold War fears marching in step with corporate powerlust and greed to create a simplistic 'patriotism' that bears more resemblance than I like to the tenets of hypernationalism that caused fascism to blossom, and it's that attitude that set the rule making dissent an inappropriate action. (Please note here that I did not call the United States a fascist country. I stated that there are underlying cultural mores that relate to both the United States and the classic pattern of fascist societies.)

I wanted to throw up when I heard a group of white men on TV saying that this Reverend's words 'completely disqualified' Obama to be president and proved that black man would always be unfit to hold high office. They don't have enough self-control. They can't be trusted to act for the good of the nation. They want vengeance, not justice. The same old tune. We haven't lynched Obama, yet, or beaten him to a bloody pulp, for getting 'above himself,' but we're doing it with words in the press.

Offline VekseidTopic starter

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2008, 01:27:15 AM »
I trust politicians coming out of Illinois even less than I trust politicians in general, but the man certainly knows how to deliver a speech (and how to hire good speechwriters).

If CNN is to be believed he wrote it himself. If you read the commentaries about dialogs with him, he's no idiot, for certain. Then again you could say the same about McCain or Clinton, but even if he did have someone write it for him, the ability to find and recruit good people is critical to the future of the US.  I really can't say much for Hillary's ability on that front, after the near collapse of her campaign. Obama's campaign however is financially healthier than the both of his opponents combined.

One thing that is interesting to note is how many young people are supporting Obama.  I think that speaks volumes about how race is a dying issue in the United States. Eventually Wright's generation will die off, and we'll be left with sobering memories caught on video, of firehoses and the like, probably alongside documentation of 'Free Speech Zones' and the current media's attempted (and hopefully slipping) mastery of public opinion.

Offline rainshadow

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Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 02:23:49 AM »
Quote
He deserves his anger, but for the rest of the nation to accept it, we have to face the reality of what black Americans have faced, and it's not a comfortable or a pretty thing to confront.

This is really the only thing I have a problem with in what you've said. I don't disagree that he deserves his anger, and I can personally accept that, but honestly there's no way for me to understand what those people were going through. Maybe I'm not quite getting what your trying to say. I think if people step out of their own prejudices and use a bit of reason that acceptance can be achieved without actually having to face the injustices for themselves.

Something else this country needs to get over: "Black people never enslaved anyone." Well, technically that's not true. Most of the slaves who originally were transported here from Africa were sold into slavery by other black people. But that's beside the point. Slavery is a dead issue in this country. There are some isolated incidents, true, but to be using that now is like saying the sins of the father are inherited by the son. We need to move forward and get over this whole race issue. Yes, there were injustices done. A great many. Some are still being done to this day, but not nearly as it was even ten years ago. Nothing irritated me more than former President Clinton apologizing for slavery... hell, those people were all dead and gone years ago. He didn't enslave them. I didn't enslave them. Hell, my grandparents didn't enslave them.

I think that some of the views being pushed by these so-called civil rights spokesmen (Jesse Jackson and White among them) are actually tainting how the country looks at black Americans. My big problem is that all too often they try to make a mountain out of a molehill by making race a key aspect in any situation. I'm not saying that they aren't right on occasion (a la Jena Six), but sometimes these claims go a bit overboard.

Another problem I have is Affirmative Action. I don't have a problem with this because I'm a 27-year-old white man. I have a problem with this because AA insinuates to the average black would-be college student or job holder that they cannot get a job or a scholarship without it. Personally I'm all for AA remaining intact while better solutions are sought (which would obviously be easier said than done), but I feel such programs are as much as a detriment as they are helpful. To me it's just that our society is painting a picture that if you are a minority in this country you can't make these advances on your own. We need to move away from that state of mind. I know plenty of young black people who have fought tooth and nail to get ahead in this country. We are all to blame, every single one of us.

Like I said, it's a disgrace that race is even an issue. It would almost be worth it for Obama to be president it would help take us one step closer to finally discarding it with the rest of the garbage. Unfortunately, that may never be the case.

One thing that is interesting to note is how many young people are supporting Obama.  I think that speaks volumes about how race is a dying issue in the United States.
We can only hope this is the case. I will probably always be a little pessimistic on the issue. I grew up in a town where there was one black family, and while they were a terrific family and wonderful members of the community, racism was pretty evident. EDIT: Concerning how some members of the community spoke about them.

On a lighter note, and something that was a bit of a switch, as I was attended a nearby JuCo... the most racism I ever heard in that place was actually just one comment, coming from a black football player (who wasn't exactly the brightest bulb to begin with) who said "I hate all these white guys" while he was walking through the hall with his buddies (big dudes, too... hell, they were football players, most of whom wound up playing D1 ball). To his credit he looked incredibly embarrassed when he bumped into me in the hall right after having said that. I was an RA (resident assistant) at the time. I told him to save his hostility for the field... he was going to need it because the team sucked that year. It broke the tension and I actually got a big smile. Never had a problem with that guy before or after. For what it's worth, they won their first and only conference game of the season that Saturday night, and he thought that was hilarious after our confrontation.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 02:25:24 AM by rainshadow »

Offline Jefepato

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2008, 10:59:34 AM »
If CNN is to be believed he wrote it himself.

I certainly don't think Obama is an idiot.  He's very, very intelligent.

But you'll have to forgive me if I'm disinclined to trust CNN.

Offline Hunter

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2008, 01:52:35 PM »
Actually, the country needs to stop letting black people act like victims.  The so called "minority" really isn't anymore.  The US has turned into such a melting pot that no one racial group truely is a majority, unlike 40 or 50 years ago.

From my experiences, black people tend to be the most racist people I've ever met.

Unfortunately.   :-\

Offline Methos

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 01:56:56 PM »
Truthfully I think the most accurate description I've heard of Obama is that "he's the candidate from Big Rock Candy Mountain". The fellow isn't running on any sort of decipherable platform, indeed, he may have one but he seems to avoid it in leiu of running on how wonderful it is he's running.  A mantra of 'hope' and 'change' without anything with regards to the how and why either hope or change is to be accomplished or achieved strains belief.

Obama delivers his speaches far more like he's trying to be a televengilist or a motivational speaker than become president. If you added a choir and some attempts at faith healings the notion would be complete. His nostrums about 'bringing' people together are really rather ridiculous as he has no track record of ever having accomplished that. Indeed his voting record is about as partisanly democrat as can be obtained.

He can distance himself from his preacher sure, but the fellow shown questionable judgement in embracing radicals like the reverend, as well as former Weatherman terrorists and the odd slum landlord facing criminal charges. Given his questionable associations and his want of anything resembling a resume befitting the leader of a major country - all Obama really has to offer is the ability to deliver catchy if meaningless speaches, and to say 'isn't it nice to have a black president'.

Given that the United States has an economy in turmoil and several foreign wars on its hands, severe immigration problems - is it really a good idea to be selecting a candidate that's all style no substance and whose only other qualification is that you'd like a gold star for tolerance?

Offline Hunter

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2008, 02:02:21 PM »
Given that the United States has an economy in turmoil and several foreign wars on its hands, severe immigration problems - is it really a good idea to be selecting a candidate that's all style no substance and whose only other qualification is that you'd like a gold star for tolerance?

Between him and Hillary, I'd rather have him.

Because 4 more years of the Clintons would likely mean a repeat of 9/11.

Offline Elohim

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2008, 02:19:43 PM »
It might be because I'm a bit young,  but I thought Clinton did a good job...  and had actually pulled our economy out of the gutter for atleast a little while.

Offline NightBird

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2008, 02:24:51 PM »
He deserves his anger, but for the rest of the nation to accept it, we have to face the reality of what black Americans have faced, and it's not a comfortable or a pretty thing to confront.

This is really the only thing I have a problem with in what you've said. I don't disagree that he deserves his anger, and I can personally accept that, but honestly there's no way for me to understand what those people were going through. Maybe I'm not quite getting what your trying to say. I think if people step out of their own prejudices and use a bit of reason that acceptance can be achieved without actually having to face the injustices for themselves.

Something else this country needs to get over: "Black people never enslaved anyone." Well, technically that's not true. Most of the slaves who originally were transported here from Africa were sold into slavery by other black people. But that's beside the point. Slavery is a dead issue in this country. There are some isolated incidents, true, but to be using that now is like saying the sins of the father are inherited by the son. We need to move forward and get over this whole race issue. Yes, there were injustices done. A great many. Some are still being done to this day, but not nearly as it was even ten years ago. Nothing irritated me more than former President Clinton apologizing for slavery... hell, those people were all dead and gone years ago. He didn't enslave them. I didn't enslave them. Hell, my grandparents didn't enslave them.

I think that some of the views being pushed by these so-called civil rights spokesmen (Jesse Jackson and White among them) are actually tainting how the country looks at black Americans. My big problem is that all too often they try to make a mountain out of a molehill by making race a key aspect in any situation. I'm not saying that they aren't right on occasion (a la Jena Six), but sometimes these claims go a bit overboard.

That's well-said, rainshadow. It's very difficult for someone who hasn't experienced both personal and structural discrimination (meaning person-to-person discrimination vs. discrimination that has been made part of how a community or nation functions) to completely grasp the impact of it, but, as you express, there are a lot of people in the United States who feel that it doesn't exist or what does still exist is a matter of isolated incidents that ought not be considered to have much impact. They forget how recent the lynchings were, that we're talking a single human lifetime. My mother grew up in one of the many towns in the US where a black person would be arrested and often treated abusively in custody if found within the city limits after the sun had set. It is living memory for her, just as it is for Reverend White, and the threat of the noose was kept alive within the past year and a half. If that doesn't indicate that the sins of earlier generations linger, I don't know what could.

It requires a deliberate decision to step outside your comfort zone and ask yourself how you would feel if you had to leave the town where you work before the sun set because you had a certain color of hair or eyes or were above or below a certain height. It takes work to ask yourself how you would feel about living in fear because the color of your skin made you less than human in the eyes of the people with legal, economic and political power.

Yes, slavery per se has ended, but racism, one of the legacies of slavery has not. Investigation into structural barriers to black voting continue, even within the past few months. I was in Atlanta a little over a year ago and heard white police officers calling black hotel employees (in suits, by the way) 'boy' and asking for a shoe shine. The legacy of racism is not old news, and yes, experiencing it the amount that I would say virtually all black leaders in the United States have... how can that not affect how you view the world? I've experienced discrimination for religion and for my gender. I know that current statistics show that I will earn approximately 30% less over the course of my lifetime than a man with my equivalent education doing the equivalent work. I can assure you that it affects how I view the world. How can anyone expect that the bitterness and anger could universally be put aside? Isn't that asking something like saintly forbearance? If white America wants black America to forget, the least we owe is an apology for slavery, for lynching, for all the petty and terrible cruelties that we have inflicted, that we have allowed to happen, and that we would rather forget because we think it was a long time ago. Slavery may be dead, but racism remains very much alive, if often more carefully expressed than it used to be.

I won't go into detail about the issue of who enslaved whom, but it's more complicated a picture historically than that blacks brought other blacks to the white outposts. There's a whole set of economic, social and political dynamics surrounding early European trade in Africa, and a lot of what happened was a result of instability caused by the arrival of Europeans, by the Mediterranean slave trade, by European weapons and so forth. It's a huge topic, and a complex one, but suffice it to say that there was a mingled influence among European contact, Mediterranean contact and the socio-political structure in sub-Saharan Africa.

Another problem I have is Affirmative Action. I don't have a problem with this because I'm a 27-year-old white man. I have a problem with this because AA insinuates to the average black would-be college student or job holder that they cannot get a job or a scholarship without it. Personally I'm all for AA remaining intact while better solutions are sought (which would obviously be easier said than done), but I feel such programs are as much as a detriment as they are helpful. To me it's just that our society is painting a picture that if you are a minority in this country you can't make these advances on your own. We need to move away from that state of mind. I know plenty of young black people who have fought tooth and nail to get ahead in this country. We are all to blame, every single one of us.

Like I said, it's a disgrace that race is even an issue. It would almost be worth it for Obama to be president it would help take us one step closer to finally discarding it with the rest of the garbage. Unfortunately, that may never be the case.
We can only hope this is the case. I will probably always be a little pessimistic on the issue. I grew up in a town where there was one black family, and while they were a terrific family and wonderful members of the community, racism was pretty evident. EDIT: Concerning how some members of the community spoke about them.

Is AA without problems? No. You're right. It would be better if there were an alternative, or if it weren't necessary at all, but the placement statistics and comparative wage earnings for equivalent work and equivalent education tend to suggest otherwise. But, in a way, you prove the case that racism is real and current. Since it's real and current, we need to face it, confront it and deal with it, not turn away or try to minimize the reality of how pervasive it truly is, or tell ourselves that the worst of it was so long ago that it shouldn't matter anymore. Not when the living memory of someone still a young adult contains clear evidence of racism. When there is racism among adults, young people often absorb it. When there is anger over racism, young people often absorb that, too. Cultural change is hard, and so I don't expect racism to go away within my lifetime.

On a lighter note, and something that was a bit of a switch, as I was attended a nearby JuCo... the most racism I ever heard in that place was actually just one comment, coming from a black football player (who wasn't exactly the brightest bulb to begin with) who said "I hate all these white guys" while he was walking through the hall with his buddies (big dudes, too... hell, they were football players, most of whom wound up playing D1 ball). To his credit he looked incredibly embarrassed when he bumped into me in the hall right after having said that. I was an RA (resident assistant) at the time. I told him to save his hostility for the field... he was going to need it because the team sucked that year. It broke the tension and I actually got a big smile. Never had a problem with that guy before or after. For what it's worth, they won their first and only conference game of the season that Saturday night, and he thought that was hilarious after our confrontation.

Now there's the hope, that laughter and smiles and seeing each other as human beings, not icons of blackness or whiteness, will gradually chip away at the barriers in perception that make racism possible. But had some other person been standing where you were, that situation could have become an ugly confrontation, adding new bricks to the barrier.

There aren't easy answers, but it is my belief that a good step would be to respect the pain and anger black Americans feel instead of saying, as those old white men did on TV, that such pain and anger disqualifies all black Americans for public office.

Offline Hunter

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2008, 02:26:59 PM »
And this is why you are becoming Doctor NightBird.   ;D

Summed up nicely in a far better way than I ever could.

Offline NightBird

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2008, 11:05:38 PM »
And this is why you are becoming Doctor NightBird.   ;D

Summed up nicely in a far better way than I ever could.

Thank you, hon.  :-*

It's always a treat to be appreciated for my mind.  ;)


Offline Hunter

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2008, 01:33:18 AM »
Thank you, hon.  :-*

It's always a treat to be appreciated for my mind.  ;)



I've always appreciated you for your mind.   ;D

And you're one of the few people I can hold an intelligent conversation with.  Feel free to come down and hide anytime.   ;)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 02:16:59 AM by Hunter »

Offline King_Furby

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2008, 05:14:32 PM »
If he wins he is going to make race an even bigger issue then it is. If Obama wins we might as well roll a D20 and add that to the race card.

Offline Swedish Steel

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2008, 05:20:51 PM »
I've always appreciated you for your mind.   ;D

And you're one of the few people I can hold an intelligent conversation with.  Feel free to come down and hide anytime.   ;)

What, you can hold intelligent conversations now? Since when!?
Muahahahahaha.

Offline rainshadow

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Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2008, 11:37:26 PM »
Nightbird, I think we agree about 100%, actually. We might have differing opinions on a few things, but they don't differ by much.

Quote
There aren't easy answers, but it is my belief that a good step would be to respect the pain and anger black Americans feel instead of saying, as those old white men did on TV, that such pain and anger disqualifies all black Americans for public office.
There is no logic in what those talking-head fools had to say. I'm certain we both agree on that. Charles Manson is white. Does that mean that all white men are creepy mass murdering SOB's? Hell no. This is another case similar to my comments on the sin-of-the-father theory.

From what I can see, while a very eloquent speaker and very passionate, Senator Obama is about as calm, cool, and collected a character as I've seen. He wouldn't be the speaker that he is if he weren't.

Offline King_Furby

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2008, 01:50:29 PM »
All of you got good solid views, i found it interesting to read what you all had to say.

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Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2008, 03:31:48 AM »
I think this is very bad news for him.  The appeal of Sen Obama, has been that he has stayed above the racial card.  That he has transcended that.   This has hurt him bad.  An not amount of spin put on it can effect that.   As polls show with independents a swing of 18%  Something like -10% for Obama and +8 for McCain.  As it brings him into the ugliness of such politics campaigning.  An the polls are reflecting this verse Hillary as well.     

Offline Methos

Re: Obama's speech today
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2008, 10:12:33 PM »
That's really his problem Asherah, he's not trying to run as another politician with a plan to help people or his country. He's running as "the Chosen One" or "the Black Jesus" or whatever the hell he's chosing to call himself. You can run as some sort of miracle worker for long without being able to perform miracles, and every politician has some skeletons in his closet and they all come out in the end. Running as someone 'pure' and 'transcendant' when your a wardheeler from Chicago who hangs around with preachers who make Al Sharpton sound reasonable, slum landlords and 70s terrorists is somewhat difficult.