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Author Topic: Winter is Coming...  (Read 36919 times)

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Offline Mikem

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #625 on: May 11, 2015, 07:29:38 PM »


Just...thought I'd drop this here.

Offline Sir Percival the Gallant

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #626 on: May 11, 2015, 08:28:15 PM »
WHAT. THE. ACTUAL. FLYING. FUCK?!

Barristan Selmy was NOT. SUPPOSED. TO. HAPPEN?!

Yeah, I was sorry to see him go, as he was one of my favourites, though I wasn't too distressed. He died valiantly, at least.

Poderick is the other character I hope won't die, but if they follow more or less what happens in the books, he may not make it.

The other characters who I know will go down this year aren't as much of a concern for me.

Offline Polymorph

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #627 on: May 12, 2015, 11:54:29 AM »

The other characters who I know will go down this year aren't as much of a concern for me.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Meryn (fucking) Trant is heading to Bravos with Lord Mace (Mummy's boy) Tyrell. Arya is in Bravos learning to be an assassin and has brave Ser Meryn on her to kill list. In the books she tops two or three different people but it seems certain in the series that Meryn is toast.

Offline Sir Percival the Gallant

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #628 on: May 12, 2015, 03:30:33 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Meryn (fucking) Trant is heading to Bravos with Lord Mace (Mummy's boy) Tyrell. Arya is in Bravos learning to be an assassin and has brave Ser Meryn on her to kill list. In the books she tops two or three different people but it seems certain in the series that Meryn is toast.

I don't think you need a spoiler for that, but as soon as we heard that he was going to Braavos, it was obvious that it will happen. In fact, I expect it in the next episode or the following.

Offline Beorning

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #629 on: May 22, 2015, 10:19:08 AM »
Okay, so... how is Season 5? I admit I haven't watch a single episode yet... although I have them all recorded on my PVR.

BTW.:


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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #630 on: May 24, 2015, 07:54:38 AM »
I love that video, haha.

Well, I've not seen s5 yet either, but there's been a hell of a lot of controversy....

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #631 on: May 24, 2015, 08:35:32 AM »
I have watched every episode so far and I can say this....

If you have read the books, you are going to spend your time watching this season going "dafuq?!" About the only thing that is remotely close to the books is Arya and the House of Black and White. (and that is missing a LOT)

They did show Cersei's biggest mistake - but it was not made for the same reason in the books. They showed Margery and Tommen getting married ....
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
but they had them consummate the marriage, which removes the storyline of Margery being arrested by the faith militant for not being a virgin - which means no Kettleblacks. They arrested Loras, which means no sending him to Dragonstone. Sansa ends up married to Ramsey Bolton (?!?!) and you can imagine where that one is going. Jaime goes to Dorne to get his daughter instead of to Riverrun to force the Blackfish out so his uncle can have the place. So no seeing Edmund on the gallows every day and no seeing Myrcella almost die due Sir Gerold Dayne trying to force Dorne into a war with the Lannisters (thanks to Princess Arianne running with Myrcella in a bid to crown her Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. No Princess Arianne, no Oakheart. Doesn't look like Sam, Gilly, Mance's son and Maester Aemon are leaving the wall to go to the Citadel for Sam to become a Maester - though that may still come out this season. No Young Griff - the part of Tyrion trying to get to Dany has been altered drastically with Jorah kidnapping Tyrion pretty much right off the bat. Dany has a few alterations, but for the most part nothing too drastic. Barristan is dead (I guess he dies in the next book - or he was deemed expendable even if he lives in the books).


Seem like Jon is the only with the least amount of changes to his story right now.

Offline Beorning

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #632 on: May 24, 2015, 02:11:03 PM »
I have watched every episode so far and I can say this....

If you have read the books, you are going to spend your time watching this season going "dafuq?!"

That's very accurate... I tried catching up with the show today and watched the last three episodes. And I'm really stunned by the amount of changes... This season, the show has really went into "completely different story" territory...

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #633 on: May 24, 2015, 02:50:22 PM »
My understanding is that they combined Feast for Crows and some of Dance with Dragons to keep things moving at the same pace. As for the changes - some of them had to be made,
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Like Brienne seeing both Arya and Sansa, trying to plead with Sansa to let her protect her (guess Sansa is rethinking that refusal now!)
since Winds of Winter isn't out yet and the fate of some is still up in the air.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Looking at Jon and Brienne specifically right now

Also have to consider that some of the changes came about because they simply cannot fit in every character the book has, every plot the book has. I mean, sure - they could have and we'd still be in book 2. Now, do I like the changes? Eh... I am still withholding judgment at this point and reminding myself that this was never going to be a true to the book show. Supposedly it is going to end up in the same place GRRM will end up at the end of the books - let's hope that's true.

Oh... and I am firmly of the belief that every single Stark child is going to become a raving serial killer.  -.-

Offline Samael

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #634 on: May 25, 2015, 06:15:20 PM »
The season so far seems to be rather drawn out.
I imagine it's because a lot of plot points got resolved, and now the show is building up the storylines for the coming seasons, but it -feels- it's extremely slow going currently. It also doesn't help that I find Tyrion's travels... rather terrible. It just feels needlessly drawn out for the same result that would have been achieved if they had gone with the first plot dealing with him this season.

That said, I love Bronn, and I enjoy what they do with Jon during the last and this season.
I also managed to think Stannis stopped being a waste of screen time, thanks to his interaction with his daughter and his actions around Castle Black.
Winter is, hopefully, coming soon.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 06:16:29 PM by Samael »

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #635 on: June 01, 2015, 12:46:05 AM »
Well... having just finished tonight’s episode, I can honestly say that this season is so different from the books that I feel like someone new to the series. I sat wide eyed and mouth gaping through this episode with not one clue what the hell was going to happen next. It is an interesting sensation to be sure and not completely disliked.

I do miss that there are people and things we are not seeing. That being said....

Holy bat balls.... WHITE WALKERS!!!  And is it just me or does the Night King-y person look like a sith without makeup?

Offline consortium11

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #636 on: June 01, 2015, 08:12:05 AM »
They were always going to have to break away from the books somewhat; the nature of TV vs the nature of the written word demanded it, to say nothing of the difference in pace between getting a TV series out each year and Martin's rather leisurely creating of a new book. I'm also quite glad they've decided to do so by taking things in a new direction rather than either endlessly dragging it out or putting in obvious filler. The fact that they play around with the timeline also means that things they've seemingly skipped over or cut out of the TV show can also be brought back at later dates. Beyond that all it's also quite nice to be surprised by what's happening; it's satisfying in one way to know what's coming next and enjoy seeing it realized on screen but it's just as enjoyable to watch something fresh; at this point I get to do both.

Seeing as it came up in the most recent episode, I have a love/hate relationship with the "break the wheel" quote. I love the quote itself; it's lovely word play and imagery. But I hate the fact that it seems so out of place when applied to Westeros. Arguably the defining trait of Westeros prior to its relatively recent history is how utterly stagnant it is. Aegon conquers the land and since then nothing really changes. A Targaryen rules, the great houses sit underneath, technology stays the same etc etc etc. Yes, there were rebellions and civil wars... but they tended to be between Targaryens so whatever the result the wheel would still be stopped. Likewise the Great Houses have remained the same since Aegon wiped out the Gardeners, Hoares and Durrandon's rising up the Tyrells, Greyjoys, and Baratheons in their place and gave the Riverlands to the Tully's. Beyond that the land they each controlled has stayed static; outside of the Riverland's being taken from the Iron Isle's control it's hard to think of any territories being gained or lost. Outside of individually weak Lord Paramount's and who got the be Hand of the King there was rarely if ever any change... and certainly not a dramatic one. Until first Robert's Rebellion cast down the Targaryens and then the War of the Five Kings shook up the Great Houses things had stayed almost utterly the same.

So to me there isn't a wheel at all and if there was it had already basically stopped and wasn't spinning. The metaphor to use for Westeros is a series of pillars. One great one called Targaryen which reaches highest. And then a series of smaller, roughly equal ones supporting it which consist of the Great Houses. For centuries it didn't spin and it barely moved at all until Robert took a giant hammer to the Targaryen pillar.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #637 on: June 01, 2015, 09:20:38 AM »
So the issue I have with the show has little to do with them breaking away from the books and more to do with how they've managed to take at least one interesting story line and ruin it.
Incoming Rant
I like Sansa. She's an annoying as fuck character to start with but from a literary perspective she is extremely well written because you're watching a 12 year old grow up and realize the world isn't all roses and rainbows and then, finally, start to own it and learn. Many don't forgive her because lady got killed and Nymeria got chased off. Both of these things were necessary from a literary stand point but people hold the actions of a naive 12 year old (or in the show a petulant 14 year old) against her for the entire series. There are other things she gets blame for but most tend to be book one things. And she gets punished for her actions in the book by her betrothal to Joffery.

And we're finally at a point in the books where she might gain agency. IMO she's working on becoming a player rather than a pawn. And the show, rather than taking a route that could have been awesome and had her move up in the vale or even Winterfell, had her married to A DIFFERENT abusive shit and raped to serve the same purpose as a minor character who has been erased. Sansa didn't need to be raped. Jeyne Pooles rape as a minor character served to further Theon's plot, who is a POV character. Jeyne Poole was a character who was unimportant other than her connection to Winterfell and Theon. Sansa was a character gaining her own free will only to have it ripped. And even if they use it to make her stronger, why did she need that after going through Joffery and the Lannisters? It was pointless. It was unnecessary. And they seriously need to quit it.

Also, where the fuck did homosexuality being illegal come from???? It doesn't happen in the books. Mind you, in the books, Loras was still in morning and wasn't fucking anyone else. He wasn't turned into a walking stereotype. And you would think that if homosexuality were illegal, they would have mentioned it sooner? Seriously. Why? 

I'm sure there are other rants about the shows that I have but currently these are the ones I am most vocal about.

Offline Samael

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #638 on: June 01, 2015, 05:37:30 PM »
They have been teasing us all these seasons with that very quotable quote "Winter is coming", and now, at last, it seems to come true.
I found the current season a little bit on the ho-hum, with my major annoyance being the "Journeys of Tyrion, whoops, and you still arrive where you're supposed to be!" which seemed drawn out for no reason whatsoever, but, like always, he is amazing when we are given the chance to see him talk with someone.

I am really enjoying Arya and Ja'quen(sp?) and I have the feeling she's going to either play a very big role soon, or, since this -is- Game of Thrones, to suddenly get killed in an unfortunate accident.

Spoilering the whole thing, just in case:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I am also pretty sure that I can see now where all the money for the season went for.
The last 20 minutes of this episode have been pretty epic, if I may use that word.
Like mentioned above, the White Walkers seem a bit sith'y, but I am ok with that. The biggest annoyance I had was with one getting killed, again. Every time they make an appearance, one of them gets killed. That kind of takes the hype a little out of them being undefeatable, but it still was a memorable and amazing battle.

I liked the female Wildling leader, and was actually disappointed, and saddened that she had been taken off the board so swiftly again.
I'd have liked for her to stay around. Her attitude was fantastic.

Also:
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 05:39:05 PM by Samael »

Offline Mantis Shrimp Prime

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #639 on: June 02, 2015, 04:13:09 AM »
I won't go into ranting about the issues I've had this season.

I will say my single biggest disappointment this season was probably the Faceless Man dude, when the camera panned behind Arya I was totally expecting the skull w/ worm from the books, not... Jaqen...
The rest is just confusing or... objectionable for other reasons.



I'm just waiting for Ser Robert Strong to show up.

Offline Sir Percival the Gallant

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #640 on: June 03, 2015, 06:17:51 PM »
Honestly, in reflexion, Sansa's rape (if it that's what it actually is—it may be some other kind of sexual violence, since Sansa's inference of consent and non-consent is not entirely clear) does not bother me that much. The scene is disturbing, yes, but it seems like it was inevitable given the situation. In fact, I think even she realises that in the events leading up the wedding night, considering how depressed she looks. Even if the society around her will see her in future (assuming she survives, but I think she will) as damaged goods, it's not like her life is over. For someone who began as such a delicate flower, things have been very tough for her. Then again, I'm not especially partial to her character.

Yes, I've also felt like the season is dragging somewhat, but that's part of the consequence of the adaptation of the novels; I think Martin has a habit of separating characters and sending them far away from each other with only distant plans (if any) for them to reunite or meet. Hopefully the show will start bringing them back together. Remember at the very beginning when you had so many major characters in proximity, at Winterfell and King's Landing? That's why I really like Black Sails with its many plot threads that continually intersect.

The last episode was cool, though. The only thing that saddened me was they killed off the female wildling leader—I thought she'd have made an interesting character had she survived (well, arguably, 'she' is still around as a wight). The Night's King gives Jon an interesting look. Apart from astonishment at Jon prevailing over the white walker, he can perhaps also sense that Jon has Stark blood in him (and perhaps Targaeryen blood as well) and knows that he's a dangerous enemy.


In other news, there's already been a casting call for next year. It sounds like they may introduce Euron Greyjoy. If they do, I suspect they'll combine Euron and Victarion from the books into one character.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 06:23:42 PM by Sir Percival the Gallant »

Offline Rogue

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #641 on: June 03, 2015, 06:34:16 PM »
Honestly, in reflexion, Sansa's rape (if it that's what it actually is—it may be some other kind of sexual violence, since Sansa's inference of consent and non-consent is not entirely clear) does not bother me that much. The scene is disturbing, yes, but it seems like it was inevitable given the situation. In fact, I think even she realises that in the events leading up the wedding night, considering how depressed she looks. Even if the society around her will see her in future (assuming she survives, but I think she will) as damaged goods, it's not like her life is over. For someone who began as such a delicate flower, things have been very tough for her. Then again, I'm not especially partial to her character.

Because I feel the need to explain this in clear terms
Sansa was raped. She didn't consent to being married. She was forced into it. Even if she did consent to having sex with him, it was a circumstance of survival, seeing as this is a man known for FLAYING PEOPLE WHO DISPLEASE HIM ALIVE. Much like Cersei was raped by Robert, Sansa was raped by her new husband. And, no. The situation was not necessary. At all. Period. Because Sansa didn't need to put into that situation to continue her storyline. She was put in that storyline to continue Theon's storyline. Once again, a storyline where a woman was becoming powerful and gaining agency (because she is heading that way in the books as far as I can tell), is cut by the showrunners.

Anyways, at minimum, I'm angry at the lazy writing in using a rape trope. In my fullest, I'm angry because a character that has had some of the most character development and is being thrown AGAIN into an abusive situation. Her choosing to try to make the most of it, does not forgive that she is the Heir to Winterfell (as far as she knew until fairly recently) and once again is being used as if all she's good for is being used to birth children.


Saying that this is Medieval times does not forgive a fantasy setting (one where we have another area where woman can rule (Dorne)) abusing women unnecessarily.

Offline Remiel

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #642 on: June 03, 2015, 06:41:13 PM »
I would argue that the rape was, perhaps, not strictly necessary, but it was inevitable.  As the audience, we knew what Sansa and Littlefinger did not--namely, exactly how much of a monster Ramsay Snow Bolton was.   Honestly, we should have started cringing the second she was promised to marry him.

I'm just glad they cut away to show Theon's horrified expression instead of the actual act.  It really does seem like most of the nudity in GoT is gratuitous and serves no purpose other than to say, hey, nudity.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 06:42:53 PM by Remiel »

Offline Sir Percival the Gallant

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #643 on: June 03, 2015, 07:09:09 PM »
Because I feel the need to explain this in clear terms
Sansa was raped. She didn't consent to being married. She was forced into it. Even if she did consent to having sex with him, it was a circumstance of survival, seeing as this is a man known for FLAYING PEOPLE WHO DISPLEASE HIM ALIVE. Much like Cersei was raped by Robert, Sansa was raped by her new husband. And, no. The situation was not necessary. At all. Period. Because Sansa didn't need to put into that situation to continue her storyline. She was put in that storyline to continue Theon's storyline. Once again, a storyline where a woman was becoming powerful and gaining agency (because she is heading that way in the books as far as I can tell), is cut by the showrunners.

Anyways, at minimum, I'm angry at the lazy writing in using a rape trope. In my fullest, I'm angry because a character that has had some of the most character development and is being thrown AGAIN into an abusive situation. Her choosing to try to make the most of it, does not forgive that she is the Heir to Winterfell (as far as she knew until fairly recently) and once again is being used as if all she's good for is being used to birth children.


Saying that this is Medieval times does not forgive a fantasy setting (one where we have another area where woman can rule (Dorne)) abusing women unnecessarily.


Rape implies 1) the violation of consent and 2) penetration of the vagina or anus (possibly also the mouth with a penis). The second criterion clearly happens, but the first is less clear. Sansa does swear the marriage oath, despite clearly under what is effectively coercion, and she undoubtedly knows the liabilities of doing so, which I'm guessing may grant her husband some authority of her body. In a perfect world, sure, she'd never do so, but she knows that she has little recourse in this situation, like escaping with little chance of survival and resisting Ramsey, which would probably make things worse. In the scene, she bends over and lets him enter her, so that implies a sort of consent, although, of course, it's under duress. Just to be clear, I'm not saying this definitely isn't rape, but I'm just unsure if it is. Nor am I condoning it; it is clearly an immoral act of sexual violence, as Ramsey's intent is clearly to inflict harm through sex.

How, though, is this lazy writing? I'm not saying it's brilliant, but I don't know about lazy (though I do think Martin has a bit of a penchant for including rape). I agree that it wasn't necessary for the plot, but it was bound to happen.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 07:10:44 PM by Sir Percival the Gallant »

Offline Rogue

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #644 on: June 03, 2015, 07:14:40 PM »
A) Consent given under coercion does not count.

B) Using rape as a way to "harden" or "give strength" to a woman is lazy writing. ESPECIALLY given Sansa's background. It's unnecessary and used for shock factor.

Offline Remiel

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #645 on: June 03, 2015, 07:26:27 PM »
It was rape, Percival.  Just because they were married did not mean Sansa welcomed the act.   Ramsay forced himself on her, and made Theon watch.  That was the whole point.   It was supposed to be horrible.


However, I'm in agreement with you that this doesn't necessarily mean it was lazy writing.  Why Littlefinger left Sansa all alone in such nefarious company given his adoration and adulation of her mother is not entirely clear, and I expect she'll have a few choice words to say to him when and if he ever returns to Winterfell.    And, obviously, this was a diversion from the books.  However,  I strongly suspect Sansa will have a part to play in the coming seasons, and this experience (along with watching her father being beheaded, being abused by Joffrey, etc.) will be an important ingredient in her character.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #646 on: June 03, 2015, 07:35:33 PM »
For those of you who have not went to GRRM's website and read the excerpts from Winds of Winter (it is from Sansa) ... she still is not becoming anything in the next book. She is not becoming a player... she is still hiding as Littlefinger's bastard and more or less being a pawn.

So to think that how she has been so far was changing is a misconception. From what I have read, GRRM doesn't have any current plans to change her personality into some strong woman out to get revenge or become a big player in the game.

That being said - the rape is gross but once she said those vows you had to know it was coming. She took the place of Jeyne Poole in the book - and Jeyne was raped by Ramsey in the book.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #647 on: June 03, 2015, 08:25:49 PM »
For those of you who have not went to GRRM's website and read the excerpts from Winds of Winter (it is from Sansa) ... she still is not becoming anything in the next book. She is not becoming a player... she is still hiding as Littlefinger's bastard and more or less being a pawn.

So to think that how she has been so far was changing is a misconception. From what I have read, GRRM doesn't have any current plans to change her personality into some strong woman out to get revenge or become a big player in the game.

That being said - the rape is gross but once she said those vows you had to know it was coming. She took the place of Jeyne Poole in the book - and Jeyne was raped by Ramsey in the book.


Ummmmm spoiler that stuff? Some of us specifically don't read anything from the Winds of Winter. And one chapter does not a book make. (not saying you're wrong, just some of us are hoping that one of the two mediums will do something with this character that isn't entirely misogynistic in nature)

And just because we knew it was coming, doesn't make it right.

Offline Sir Percival the Gallant

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #648 on: June 03, 2015, 09:13:51 PM »
A) Consent given under coercion does not count.

B) Using rape as a way to "harden" or "give strength" to a woman is lazy writing. ESPECIALLY given Sansa's background. It's unnecessary and used for shock factor.

A) By our definition of rape, yes, but it's not necessarily the case in this society. Sure, they might believe that something awful is happening to her, but whether they'd consider it rape or tantamount to it is unknown. I suppose I'd be more comfortable calling it rape if Sansa herself states that that's what she believes that it is at some point in future.

B) How do you know that is the author's objective?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 09:16:11 PM by Sir Percival the Gallant »

Offline Remiel

Re: Winter is Coming...
« Reply #649 on: June 03, 2015, 09:20:12 PM »
(not saying you're wrong, just some of us are hoping that one of the two mediums will do something with this character that isn't entirely misogynistic in nature)

My money's on the show over the books.  The expression on her face when she
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
learned that Bran and Rickon were still alive
  hinted that she would have a part to play in the future.