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Author Topic: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.  (Read 12154 times)

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Offline Sabre

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2012, 03:04:46 PM »
Such rituals of appeasement are so irreverent, it's kind of sad.  Would the same lawmakers have come out and said this when the story wasn't a media frenzy?  They seem keen on defending their law more than anything else.  I agree that all of the above would have diffused the situation, but cannot say it is Jim Crow returned nor just kindling for sensationalism that would have burned anyway.

Quote
The pair [Peaden and Baxley] noted, hwoever, that they didn't know all the facts of the case and their opinions could change if new details were uncovered.

That's called covering your bases and waiting for the storm to pass.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2012, 03:22:47 PM »
Such rituals of appeasement are so irreverent, it's kind of sad.  Would the same lawmakers have come out and said this when the story wasn't a media frenzy?  They seem keen on defending their law more than anything else.  I agree that all of the above would have diffused the situation, but cannot say it is Jim Crow returned nor just kindling for sensationalism that would have burned anyway.

That's called covering your bases and waiting for the storm to pass.

Thing is.. Zimmerman isn't the saint the cops claimed him to be. He has arrested (though the charges were dropped later) for interferring with a cop arresting a friend of his. He's been accused of domestic violence by an ex-fiancee, though both were told to avoid each other for a year rather than having formal charges being put forth on either. He's made 40+ calls to the police since 2011 as a member of the neighborhood watch and has been described as 'strict' by residents of the community. He hasn't quite attained a record.

Whereas the only thing that Trayvan has even been in trouble for was a 10 days suspension, and I got one of those for being the loser in a fight with another kid. He started it.. I got suspended for 2 weeks. (The instigator got 10 days as well).

Not saying that Martin was a saint or that Zimmerman was certainly a gunthug running around looking for trouble, just that the initial investigation was glossed over by the authoriites because he was studying to be a cop. More scrutiny could have avoided this altogether tragic event.

Granted if Zimmerman hadn't had the gun with him, Trayvon would still be alive too.

And I find it very telling that one of the authors of the 'Standing your ground' law says that from what he's seen of the incident that there was ample grounds for Zimmerman to be prosecuted.

Offline Sabre

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2012, 03:37:44 PM »
It's telling in that he's playing both sides as much as he is able as any politician under fire will.  The law, however, has allowed for many situations just like this one to go without trials or arrests.  It's not the first, and unfortunately Martin will likely not be the last so long as the law remains on the books.  Zimmerman is hardly a saint (or even a decent person), but balancing hearts on an Anubis scale and saying the police have tipped theirs over indifference to Martin or support for Zimmerman is a terrible thing as well.  Though our ages are very different, you and I both know it wasn't Jim Crow that Martin died from.  It was from the way people in the South are now living, from isolated communities with suspicious neighbors that live their lives driving from one strip mall to the other.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2012, 04:02:34 PM »
It's telling in that he's playing both sides as much as he is able as any politician under fire will.  The law, however, has allowed for many situations just like this one to go without trials or arrests.  It's not the first, and unfortunately Martin will likely not be the last so long as the law remains on the books.  Zimmerman is hardly a saint (or even a decent person), but balancing hearts on an Anubis scale and saying the police have tipped theirs over indifference to Martin or support for Zimmerman is a terrible thing as well.  Though our ages are very different, you and I both know it wasn't Jim Crow that Martin died from.  It was from the way people in the South are now living, from isolated communities with suspicious neighbors that live their lives driving from one strip mall to the other.

Agreed.. gated communities are a boon and a bane. It's the bunker defense outlook and things like 'Neighborhood associations' that have made me vow to not live in an area with one. I don't like the fact that at least one person down here in Jax has had such a group try and take his home away from him for a flag pole in his front yard. I see too many cases of abuse behind the laws and rules they set up

My problem is there is an air of 'Zimmerman said' and nothing else is coming up. A couple neighbors had stated the cops corrected them when their stories didn't match Zimmerman's and one one said they didn't take her statement because it directly counterdicted his story. (He was standing over Martin who was yelling for help).

There are enough inconsistencies in the reporting and the approach to the incident to mandate an investigation. And I don't think the law protects Zimmerman given he PURSUED the boy.

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2012, 06:24:53 PM »
Just a quick note to keep it civil and on topic. There is no need for personal barbs to be thrown around.

Offline elone

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2012, 01:05:02 AM »
This from Wikipedia

Quote
When the police arrived, they reported finding Martin face-down and unresponsive, with a gunshot wound in the chest. The police report states that they attempted CPR, paramedics arrived and continued CPR, finally declaring Trayvon Martin dead at 7:30 p.m. Statements by the police say Zimmerman had grass on his back and his back was wet. Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head; subsequently his lawyer stated that Zimmerman's nose was broken and that wound of the back of his head normally required stitches.[45][46] Zimmerman claimed self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on, when Martin attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck. He said he fired the semiautomatic handgun because he feared for his life.[47] Martin was unarmed, and was carrying a bag of Skittles candy and a can of Arizona brand iced tea.[47][48]
A witness to the physical altercation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him up, while the older man yelled for help.[49] Another witness, Mary Cutcher, has said in a TV interview that "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling",[50] but police say that she gave an official account to them that agreed with Zimmerman's story.[51][52] Cutcher and her roommate told CNN journalist Anderson Cooper that their own account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and that they had demanded that the police retract that incorrect statement. They also said, about the police's attitude at the scene, that "they were siding with him [Zimmerman] from the start" and that they heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees pinning Martin down on the ground.[53] On March 24th, 2012, FOX 35 in Orlando reported that a man named John told police that Martin attacked Zimmerman on the night of the shooting.[54]

Trayvon Martin

Height   6 ft 3 in (1.91 m)[1]
Weight   140 lb (64 kg)[1]


George Zimmerman

Height   5 ft 9 in (1.75 m)[6][7]
Weight   250 lb (110 kg)[6]

It seems a new witness has come forward that says Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him. The statements by Cutcher are different now than they were when given to the police. Her saying she heard whining seems contradicted by the 911 calls by neighbors where you can clearly hear someone screaming in the background.

Perhaps when all is investigated we will get to the truth of the matter. One thing is for certain, this was a tragedy that could have been avoided had Zimmerman been less zealous in his self directed policing.



Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2012, 01:28:28 AM »
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

Definitely more on the witnesse statements than we've heard by the police statement.

Offline elone

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2012, 04:08:42 AM »
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/031612-911-calls-released-in-Sanford-shooting

Here is a link to all the 911 calls that came in about the shooting. I assume one of them is Cutcher's. Figure out which one. All of them that heard something seem to describe fighting, calls for help, immediately followed by a single gunshot. In one you hear the shot. This is not what Cutcher said in her interview, she says the fight was further away, then they moved near her house, she heard whimpering, then a shot. All the other 911 calls describe it differently, as does the audio where you can hear the shot. I am not convinced by her version of events.

Interesting that one guy said he saw the fight but not the shot as he came in to get his dog and was going back out to help (I think). The 911 person did not ask him for many details. I am sure we will hear this description in the investigation.

I was wondering if they found the bullet. Did it pass through Martin? If so, and it might seem likely at such close range, was it in the ground or not found. If in the ground it would seem Zimmerman would have been on top or above Martin. If not recovered, the other way round.

Also, what happened to the clothes that both were wearing at the time? Were they taken in evidence? Also, what happened to Zimmerman after the shooting? Did the police take him in for questioning, was he offered medical help for his alleged broken nose and cuts to his head? Seems this investigation was either botched or the police just assumed it was self defense and let it go at that.

It is hard not to be swayed by emotion in this case, I feel as many others do that it was a confrontation that should never have happened, and quite possibly racially motivated. If they don't get Zimmerman for manslaughter, (I doubt murder can be proven), then they will get him for some type of hate crime.

Again, hopefully a full investigation will get some answers and a just end to the case.

Offline Belle33

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2012, 10:53:59 AM »
Agreed.. gated communities are a boon and a bane. It's the bunker defense outlook and things like 'Neighborhood associations' that have made me vow to not live in an area with one. I don't like the fact that at least one person down her can act to against homeowners that don't follow the HOA rules.  I agree - it's troublesome.  I have to get approval on the color before painting me in Jax has had such a group try and take his home away from him for a flag pole in his front yard. I see too many cases of abuse behind the laws and rules they set up

I suspect what you're reacting to here are Home Owner Associations and their sometimes intricate rules that permeate communities in North Florida.  Whether or not the community is gated doesn't matter - communitiesy house.  It's absurd, but I don't think this has anything to do with a culture that lead to Trayvon's shooting.

I'm interested in understanding whether the 'Stand Your Ground' law supports Trayvon here.  It seems to me that he's the person who was attacked.  It seems to me that people rarely think of self defense in terms of black men defending themselves from white people. 

I wonder if Zimmerman was identifiable as a person in authority.  Did he wear a uniform?  A badge?  Was he in a marked car?  Did he identify himself in some way?  Absent all this, and looking at this from Trayvon's perspective, I can't see why he wouldn't act to try to defend himself if Zimmerman approached.  Especially if he could see that Zimmerman was armed.   

I would run away from an armed guy lurking around my neighborhood at night, too.  I am Trayvon.



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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2012, 01:24:58 PM »
As I understand it, Neighborhood Watch organizations in general do not get badges or uniforms.  I haven't heard that Zimmerman called out anything like 'Neighborhood Watch!' when he asked Trayvon what he was doing. 

Offline The Irishman

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2012, 04:26:57 PM »
I fear I'm going to be the minority in this argument.  I'll do my best to be as inoffensive and as hilarious as I possibly can be, without appearing to be too callous:



I am not ready to 100% call for Zimmerman's head or to make the battle cry that he was acting completely in self-defense.  I do not have all the evidence, but I would like to think I have enough to make a reasonable assumption.  Which is precisely what the rest of you have done, I imagine.


If I were a betting man, I would wager on Zimmerman being innocent.  I would also wager on him not being a racist.  I will try to clarify both of my claims as best as I can.  I will start with the charge that Zimmerman is racist against blacks:


This started out when people "thought" he said a derogatory term with the 911 dispatcher.  However, the hypothetical jury is out on that assumption.  I do not believe he said anything of the sort.  I do believe he was highly suspicious of the way that Trayvon was dressed and how he was acting (cutting through people's yards), which I cannot take offense to.  If we rule out that Zimmerman did not use a racial slur, we only have the evidence that he is Hispanic and the boy is black -- which doesn't hold up much, unless your last name is Jackson or Sharpton.


About the hoodie -- if you look like a thief and are cutting across people's lawns at night, you should not be surprised when someone asks what you're doing.  His skin color had nothing to do with it.  His attire during the time of night and the circumstances is what brought this event to a head.  I believe Dave Chappelle has a stand-up skit about assumptions with clothing. 


Now, we can move on to why I would wager that Zimmerman is innocent, and why I don't believe "Stand Your Ground" applies in this situation.  He was requested not to pursue Trayvon by a 911 dispatcher -- which is not a legal request.  What happens next is fuzzy.  However, what is almost a sure-fact is that at some point in time Trayvon managed to get on top of Zimmerman and began to rearrange his face.  There were cries for help -- and the wounds inflicted on Zimmerman would likely back his story that he was calling for help.  After that, there was a gunshot. 


In most states, there is a duty to retreat if possible.  However, Zimmerman had no route of escape.  He was on his back and was being brutally assaulted by a "boy" who was 6'3".  If I were a lawyer, I would argue that Trayvon used inappropriate force in continuing to attack Zimmerman after he was on the ground, even if Zimmerman had hypothetically struck first -- which there is no evidence found on Trayvon to back that claim.  It was at this time I believe the weapon was discharged, killing Trayvon.


Should he have pursued Trayvon?  No, that was stupid of him -- he should have allowed the police to handle it.  Is that illegal?  No.  As a civilian, he does have reasonable justification to protect his neighbor's property/life if he thought Trayvon was committing some crime.  Was he wrong in discharging his firearm?  No.  It was the middle of the night and he was being assaulted by a younger and fitter man than himself.  Should he have been carrying a weapon as a Neighborhood Watchman?  That is irrelevant -- he was a Florida CCDW permit holder.  He had the legal right to do so, regardless of his volunteer position.  Speaking in his defense, if I were put in the same responsibility, I would carry my own personal firearm just the same as Zimmerman did. 


I could also be dead (not literally) wrong.  Who knows?  I am irked that our President does not have anything better to do than stick his nose in to local affairs, but that is another time and place.  I do have to ask -- I wonder if the Justice Department will allocate just as many resources to arresting members of the New Black Panther Party that put a $10,000 bounty out for Zimmerman's head?

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2012, 05:12:38 PM »
I ask this in all seriousness....

Are you serious?

I will state here and now if someone unknown is following me - doesn't even matter what time of day or night - and doesn't announce what the hell they are following me for and doesn't let me get to safety, I am going to do my damned best to rearrange his face as well as try to put his gonads up in place of his eyeballs!

Zimmerman STALKED Trayvon plain and simple.

He wanted to be Barney Fife and had a complex thinking he was the law when he wasn't/isn't and Trayvon had every right to defend HIMSELF from someone unknown stalking him and not announcing himself.

And for that matter, I've taught my kids to do the same thing. If they are being threatened, feel threatened, try to get somewhere safe. If they cannot, fight dirty. Kick, bite, throw punches, use whatever they can get their hands on to defend themselves.

Offline The Irishman

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2012, 05:32:25 PM »
I ask this in all seriousness....

Are you serious?

I will state here and now if someone unknown is following me - doesn't even matter what time of day or night - and doesn't announce what the hell they are following me for and doesn't let me get to safety, I am going to do my damned best to rearrange his face as well as try to put his gonads up in place of his eyeballs!

Zimmerman STALKED Trayvon plain and simple.

He wanted to be Barney Fife and had a complex thinking he was the law when he wasn't/isn't and Trayvon had every right to defend HIMSELF from someone unknown stalking him and not announcing himself.

And for that matter, I've taught my kids to do the same thing. If they are being threatened, feel threatened, try to get somewhere safe. If they cannot, fight dirty. Kick, bite, throw punches, use whatever they can get their hands on to defend themselves.


I think I'm being serious, but I can't quite remember what it was I was -- oh, that's right!


We don't necessarily know what happened in the time between Zimmerman called the police and when Trayvon was on top of him.  Zimmerman states that he returned to his SUV and Trayvon assaulted him from behind.  If the crime scene occurred near to his SUV, I cannot currently find any proof that would deny this side of the story.  We do not know if Zimmerman did alert Trayvon to his status of being Neighborhood Watch (Which, again, is not a legal necessity.) or even spoke to him. 


However, I would state with some reassurance that taking a man to the ground and pummeling him is not an appropriate level of force used if Zimmerman was only following him.  If there was no force applied towards Trayvon (and there is not), then I do not see how Trayvon's actions were justified.  I also do not believe that what Zimmerman did was stalking per Florida law, which can be found in Section 784.048.  His actions had a purpose (protecting property).  However, I am not a lawyer and would ultimately think that such reasoning would be best explained by one.


Unfortunately, Opheliac, you have to be responsible in the level of force you use.  Simply being followed does not give you the legal authority to physically assault somebody.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2012, 05:47:22 PM »
Actually, they have the girlfriend's statement that Travyon ASKED Zimmerman what he wanted (or something to that effect) and Zimmerman verbally confronted Trayvon (cannot remember the exact wording but it was not announcing that he was neighborhood watch and was aggressive).

What we do know is Zimmerman has said that he got out of his SUV to check what road he was on. Seriously? He's lived there for years (something like since 2002 or 2004, cant remember the exact number of years now) and he had to get OUT of his SUV to actually check a street sign? And HE is the self appointed captain of the neighborhood watch?

We also know that Trayvon was shot and killed away from the SUV. Like between two townhomes - which implies that Zimmerman CHASED Trayvon.

There are also witnesses in the neighborhood coming forward to say the cops corrected THEM on their statements when they said something that did NOT fit Zimmerman's story.

I can keep going here. This is not an innocent man that was defending himself.

This is a case of a self important bumbling fool who wanted to be the 'hero' and went too far.

Offline elone

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2012, 11:01:33 PM »
Actually, they have the girlfriend's statement that Travyon ASKED Zimmerman what he wanted (or something to that effect) and Zimmerman verbally confronted Trayvon (cannot remember the exact wording but it was not announcing that he was neighborhood watch and was aggressive).

What we do know is Zimmerman has said that he got out of his SUV to check what road he was on. Seriously? He's lived there for years (something like since 2002 or 2004, cant remember the exact number of years now) and he had to get OUT of his SUV to actually check a street sign? And HE is the self appointed captain of the neighborhood watch?

We also know that Trayvon was shot and killed away from the SUV. Like between two townhomes - which implies that Zimmerman CHASED Trayvon.

There are also witnesses in the neighborhood coming forward to say the cops corrected THEM on their statements when they said something that did NOT fit Zimmerman's story.

I can keep going here. This is not an innocent man that was defending himself.

This is a case of a self important bumbling fool who wanted to be the 'hero' and went too far.

According to the girlfriend's version of the call, Trayvon said "What are you following me for?" Zimmerman responded "What are you doing here?" Then the phone or earpiece went dead, she "assumed" Trayvon had been pushed.

Not sure where the idea comes from that Zimmerman was checking a street sign. Is there some report of that? It is not in the official police report. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf]

We do not know that Zimmerman chased Trayvon, although it seems he was trying to follow him. The call from Zimmerman to police said that Trayvon ran and he lost track of him. Zimmerman says that on the way back to the SUV he was jumped. That does not mean he was next to the SUV, but was returning after losing sight of Trayvon to meet the police who were on the way.

Don't know about witnesses being coerced, but if you listen to the 911 tapes you will see that the statements made by Cutcher on the news are totally contradicted by the 911 tapes. Also she actually saw nothing as per her 911 call that was released. Listen to it, she had no real information and got off the phone rather quickly. She certainly had a lot to say to the media afterwards.

Fact is, we don't really know what occurred, it is probably best to let the facts come out, as they will surely investigate this all thoroughly and present it to the grand jury.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 11:18:36 PM by elone »

Offline The Irishman

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2012, 07:33:35 PM »
I concur with the gentleman/cat above.

Offline Serephino

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2012, 08:24:19 PM »
This is really screwed up.  Teenagers have been taught to be wary of strangers because there are a lot of pervs out there, and it isn't just girls that have to worry about it.  If some older guy was following me you better believe it's going to freak me out a little.  If I run and said guy starts chasing me, I'd use every dirty trick I know. 

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2012, 08:27:03 PM »
I think that two things will muddy the waters in this situations. One, the cops in Sanford played softball with their investigation. Two, with the media has made it IMPOSSIBLE to get things straightened out one way or the other.

Offline elone

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #68 on: March 28, 2012, 12:54:03 AM »
I think that two things will muddy the waters in this situations. One, the cops in Sanford played softball with their investigation. Two, with the media has made it IMPOSSIBLE to get things straightened out one way or the other.

You are right on both counts, I think the cops just thought it would go away and no one would care like so many other shootings in this country. They just said, yeah self defense, let's move on.

The media can always be counted on to jump all over a story and flog it to death, bringing forth a lot of misinformation and causing people to come forward for their 15 minutes of fame who really have nothing substantial to add. About the only good thing they have done is get it enough attention so that there will be a new investigation. Just let some other sensational thing hit the news and that will be the last we hear of this story.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #69 on: March 28, 2012, 09:17:07 AM »
You are right on both counts, I think the cops just thought it would go away and no one would care like so many other shootings in this country. They just said, yeah self defense, let's move on.

The media can always be counted on to jump all over a story and flog it to death, bringing forth a lot of misinformation and causing people to come forward for their 15 minutes of fame who really have nothing substantial to add. About the only good thing they have done is get it enough attention so that there will be a new investigation. Just let some other sensational thing hit the news and that will be the last we hear of this story.

Add in things like the New Black Panthers putting out a bounty for Zimmerman and it gets surreal.

Offline Deva

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2012, 10:36:52 AM »
Add in things like the New Black Panthers putting out a bounty for Zimmerman and it gets surreal.

Isn't putting a bounty on someones head not a crime like instigation to murder or somethin?

Offline elone

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2012, 10:56:14 AM »
The New Black Panther Party has been described as virulently racist, advcating for death to Jews, whites, and others. They have no relation to the Black Panther party of the 60s and 70s. What they have offered is a reward of $10,000 for a citizens arrest of Zimmerman. The police are worried this will move into causing a vigilante action.

New news. Earlier reporting said that Trayvon was suspended for being tardy during the incident. Not so, he was suspended for possession of a baggie that may have contained pot, along with a pipe. He had previously been suspended for tardiness and someone said vandalism. Also he was investigated by the police for possession of some jewelry and possible possession of burglary tools. The latter two could not be proven to be his so no action was taken.

Story here:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/revealed-trayvon-martins-suspension-record-george-zimmermans-statement-to-police/

Offline Deva

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2012, 12:23:55 PM »
aaah, that part was confusing, even hearing from it from different sources, one has to admit that the term bounty is not really innocent.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2012, 07:42:07 AM »
As I stated in another forum (which I WISH had the civility of this one), if the reports of Martin attacking Zimmerman are correct, should the Stand Your Ground law not apply to Martin as well? I mean, if shooting someone is an appropriate response for getting punched in the face, shouldn't punching someone in the face be an appropriate response for getting stalked?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2012, 09:09:54 AM »
As I stated in another forum (which I WISH had the civility of this one), if the reports of Martin attacking Zimmerman are correct, should the Stand Your Ground law not apply to Martin as well? I mean, if shooting someone is an appropriate response for getting punched in the face, shouldn't punching someone in the face be an appropriate response for getting stalked?

You know.. I hadn't considered that. I'll have to look up the law again.