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Author Topic: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.  (Read 12159 times)

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Offline Iniquitous

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #175 on: May 02, 2012, 01:41:59 PM »
I'll try to find the link to the news story again but I do remember it was a guy saying that Zimmerman followed him in a car for some reason or another. Don't remember all the details but I'll see if I can find the link again.


Quote
George Zimmerman is notorious for following people, in 2003 he followed a 24-year-old Lake Mary resident who he claimed he seen shoplift a TV. He followed the man in his vehicle until police officials arrived.

A short year later he followed a man who he claimed spat at him, when officials arrived at the scene the man denied spitting at Mr. Zimmerman; however the incident was still reported.

Taken from the link below though plenty of links mention the two incidents. One other site states that the man Zimmerman claimed spit at him told the cops Zimmerman had been tailgating him and irate.

http://www.newspitter.com/2012/03/22/a-closer-look-at-trayvon-martins-shooter-george-zimmerman
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 01:52:05 PM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Offline JDrew Spider

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #176 on: May 02, 2012, 06:28:21 PM »
What I don't get is why in the world would you proceed when the operator tells you not to. Now this man got a bounty on his head.

Offline elone

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #177 on: May 02, 2012, 06:32:19 PM »
No one knows what really occurred. According to Zimmerman, he quit following Travon when asked not to and was returning to his vehicle when he was jumped by Martin.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #178 on: May 02, 2012, 07:08:30 PM »
No one knows what really occurred. According to Zimmerman, he quit following Travon when asked not to and was returning to his vehicle when he was jumped by Martin.

Exactly.. He SAID.. Trayvon isn't around to refute it.

Offline JDrew Spider

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #179 on: May 02, 2012, 07:47:02 PM »
Yea I don't believe that. Some strange man is following asking you "what you're doing here?" and then Martin returns the favor by following him back? I don't think so.

I just got done watching that Rodney King documentary. Hope nothing like that happens.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #180 on: May 02, 2012, 07:51:49 PM »
Yea I don't believe that. Some strange man is following asking you "what you're doing here?" and then Martin returns the favor by following him back? I don't think so.

I just got done watching that Rodney King documentary. Hope nothing like that happens.

I don't know if there will be riots in the streets of Sanford if Zimmerman gets off. I know he might want to literally 'vanish' though. I'm sure someone might take a shot at him. Feelings are still running too high.

Offline Etah dna Evol

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #181 on: May 02, 2012, 11:33:42 PM »
Ok, so according to your first point Martin did not have a right to be there?
He has a right to be there, but he had never been in that neighborhood before so Zimmerman had no way to have any idea who he was. That was my point.

Quote
Wrong. His father lived in that gated community, which gives him every right to be there and to be able to walk through the community without Barney Fife stalking him.

Code: [Select]
as the teen was trying to get back to the home of his father’s girlfriend
http://tucsoncitizen.com/usa-today-news/2012/04/14/trayvon-martins-dad-says-he-warned-son/

His father stayed with his girlfriend who lived there on the weekends. Suspended for possession of marijuana, Trayvon was spending his first weekend there ever.
Quote
Second, there is nothing illegal about wearing hoodies and if you try to say that gave Zimmerman grounds to immediately target him as a suspect, then you need help. It was raining. Pretty damn good reason to wear a hood if you ask me. Three, is it a crime to walk between buildings? If so, I am breaking the law every time I walk to the mailboxes at the front of the complex.

No, but to any reasonable person the face obscuring clothing and walking between houses is more than enough cause to gain attention. Especially in a community that had recently experienced break-ins.

Quote
kind of stalking Zimmerman did is what Kataban posted.

Your arguing semantics. There is no penal code that addresses following someone on a public street, one time.
Quote
Zimmerman made it a point to follow Martin even after being told the police did not need him to. Zimmerman made the choice to ignore what the police dispatcher told him.

  • #1) a 911 dispatcher is not a peace officer and their word doesn’t carry the weight of the law
  • #2) the 911 dispatcher did not say: no don’t follow him. They said: we don’t need you to do that.
  • #3) Zimmerman’s account has always been that at that point, he lost sight of Trayvon and returned to his truck.

Quote
my opinion, that right there removes any right to use Stand Your Ground as a defense against prosecution

In Florida, Stand Your Ground is not a defense; it’s an immunity from prosecution. You'd know that had you bothered to actually google the text of the law.

Quote
you don’t have to be white to be racist so this whole trying to point out he is not Caucasian is ridiculous.

Really. Google the phrase “White Hispanic.” It is a ludicrous term that was created solely to infer racist intentions on Zimmermans part.

Quote
There is also 911 calls that experts have analyzed and said it was Martin screaming for help.

Ed Primeau was the first “expert.” I have detailed his “awesome” “technique” below:

Code: [Select]
He listened to the audio tape of the screams and concluded: "I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt." He said emphatically: "That's a young man screaming."
http://digitaljournal.com/article/322204

I don’t care how much of an expert you claim to be, you can’t tell a scream to a scientific certainty using sound enhancement and listening by ear.

Tom Owens, the second “expert” whose forensic qualifications include a Bachelors in history

http://www.owlinvestigations.com/pdf/TOM_OWEN_Vitae_01_2011.pdf

uses a computer program, that utilizes a technique called voice biometric analysis. Not only is voice biometric analysis itself not proved itself to be scientifically certain, but Tom Owen’s used only Zimmerman’s voice recorded in the 911 call, which is way to small of a voice sample for his program to be accurate.

legalinsurrection.com/2012/04/audio-expert-in-martin-case-demanded-at-least-six-similar-voice-exemplars-in-prior-case/

Quote
I’ll tell you right now, if I am walking home at night and someone is following me that I do not know and I cannot get away from them, I am going to do my damned best to physically harm them.

If someone was following you, on a public street, you would commit felony battery? This is the millionth time I have heard this sentiment expressed, but I cannot pin down its logical justification. Additionally, even if we assume that it is OK to beat people who follow us, half to death, how do you figure out the difference between someone is following you and someone merely walking behind you?

Quote
Zimmerman has had run ins with the law before.

Don’t we all?

Quote
Has had reports from others that he has followed them without just cause and has been violent.

I would like a source for this claim. I have tried to find it myself, and have been unsuccessful.

    He might have called the POLICE directly only 7 times.. but he's on record for something like 40 calls to 9/11 over the last 2 years.
No. It's seven times in the last 6 months, some to 911 and some to the polices none emergency line. The total number is 46 in the last eight years. That breaks down to about one call every two months.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/23/did-trayvon-shooter-abuse-911.html[/list]
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 11:37:04 PM by Etah dna Evol »

Offline elone

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #182 on: May 02, 2012, 11:50:05 PM »
Yea I don't believe that. Some strange man is following asking you "what you're doing here?" and then Martin returns the favor by following him back? I don't think so.

Where do you get the idea that Martin followed him back? There seems to be a lot of conjecture here about what occurred without looking at other possible scenarios that could be just as likely but not as popular.

Perhaps Zimmerman is telling the truth, Trayvon, according to his girlfriend, answered "Why are you following me?" Then the phone went dead. She said it was probably because he was pushed. Absolutely no evidence of that. It could be that Trayvon, in anticipation of attacking Zimmerman turned off his phone and took off his headset. The point is, we don't know and that is why there will be a hearing to determine the facts, if that is even possible.

And Callie, what possible justice would be served by someone taking a shot at Zimmerman. "Feelings are still running too high." Is that some sort of excuse for an execution of a man who is presumably innocent until proven guilty? Even if he is found completely innocent of the second degree murder charge his life is already ruined. Yes, he is still alive and Trayvon is not. But try to think for a minute that there is a possibility that Zimmerman acted in self defense and was afraid that Trayvon was going for his gun. If that were the case would you still be so intent on seeing him put in prison for the rest of his life? I don't really want to defend Zimmerman, I think he is probably a wanna be cop and a jerk, but that does not make him a murderer of preclude him from having a fair trial.

Personally, I prefer to wait for the testimony and facts to come out. Until then, everything is just irrational and based more on knee jerk reaction than reality. Also, if people want to riot because they do not get the verdict that they want, what does that say for the relevance of our  system of laws and courts.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #183 on: May 03, 2012, 01:56:05 AM »
I would like a source for this claim. I have tried to find it myself, and have been unsuccessful.

Iniquitous Opheliac provided a link at the top of this page of responses:

 
I'll try to find the link to the news story again but I do remember it was a guy saying that Zimmerman followed him in a car for some reason or another. Don't remember all the details but I'll see if I can find the link again.


Taken from the link below though plenty of links mention the two incidents. One other site states that the man Zimmerman claimed spit at him told the cops Zimmerman had been tailgating him and irate.

http://www.newspitter.com/2012/03/22/a-closer-look-at-trayvon-martins-shooter-george-zimmerman

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #184 on: May 03, 2012, 07:46:05 AM »
Quote
Your arguing semantics. There is no penal code that addresses following someone on a public street, one time.
Quote
Zimmerman made it a point to follow Martin even after being told the police did not need him to. Zimmerman made the choice to ignore what the police dispatcher told him.


#1) a 911 dispatcher is not a peace officer and their word doesn’t carry the weight of the law
#2) the 911 dispatcher did not say: no don’t follow him. They said: we don’t need you to do that.
#3) Zimmerman’s account has always been that at that point, he lost sight of Trayvon and returned to his truck.

Now you are the one arguing semantics. The dispatcher made it clear with the "we don't need you to do that" that Zimmerman needed to stop what he was doing. No, dispatchers are not police officers. However, they speak for the police officers and Zimmerman should have stopped what he was doing right then.

But then again, considering he had a history of following people he thought guilty of crimes.... well, we know why he didn't.

Quote
Really. Google the phrase “White Hispanic.” It is a ludicrous term that was created solely to infer racist intentions on Zimmermans part.

The point was, it is entirely possible to have a racist hispanic or a racist black. It is not something restricted solely to the white race. Thus, this arguing over whether Zimmerman is white or not  to try and remove any chance of him being racist is pointless. White, black or hispanic - makes no difference. Racism is not defined by the color of the skin, it is defined by the actions and beliefs of the person.

Also - what color do you call someone from China? India? South America? South Africa? White or black describes the color of the skin. Not that ethnicity. My point stands.

Offline Etah dna Evol

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #185 on: May 03, 2012, 10:10:36 AM »

Now you are the one arguing semantics.
When one is arguing semantics, they are arguing about the wording of a statement of phrase, whose intent is clear. "Do not follow him" and "We don't need you to follow him," are very different sentences and the meaning of the latter is vague. 'We don't need you to do x' implies that it is OK and that it might even be helpful.

Quote
No, dispatchers are not police officers. However, they speak for the police officers and Zimmerman should have stopped what he was doing right then.

According to his story, which has not to my knowledge changed, at that point he returned to his truck.
Quote
The point was, it is entirely possible to have a racist hispanic or a racist black.

That is true, but why were they trying so hard to make him white? Why did the black panthers put an award on his head? This rush to judgement was predicated on an upper middle class white person shooting down an innocent young black kid.

Quote
Thus, this arguing over whether Zimmerman is white or not  to try and remove any chance of him being racist is pointless.

No its not. People are using this issue and its out of context racial implications to prove that things like this are going on all over the country and that white racism is running rampant. Do you think people were grousing about Hispanic racism during all the Trayvon marches? Do you think Al Sharpton is involved to oppose the evils of Hispanic racism?

Quote
My point stands.

If you say so. The problem with not being very informed in the first place and then rushing to judgement based on news articles that pop up when you check your email and what those moving picture stories tell you on the magic color box, is that you never or rarely process new information. So you'll stick to your guns as hard as you can despite emerging information and then you make grandiose statements like "my point stands," when you don't even seem to be clear what they are arguing.  This is what makes people gullible to the media and to facebook pictures.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 10:14:41 AM by Etah dna Evol »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #186 on: May 03, 2012, 10:18:44 AM »
Ahkay, that's about enough of that until a cooldown period has passed. Thread will be unlocked in 24 hours.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #187 on: May 04, 2012, 11:19:17 AM »
Unlocked. A few reminders:

* Watch the sarcasm. It's getting out of hand.
* People can disagree with you without being The Enemy.
* If you're getting upset or frustrated, step away and take a deep breath before responding.

Thank you.

Offline SRT4NightRider

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #188 on: May 04, 2012, 03:34:05 PM »
My job, we've had a full out debate about this topic. I personally, workin in a legal office, feel that until we see proof EITHER WAY, we can not come to a conclusion

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #189 on: May 04, 2012, 04:18:38 PM »
My job, we've had a full out debate about this topic. I personally, workin in a legal office, feel that until we see proof EITHER WAY, we can not come to a conclusion

Agreed. I personally don't feel that he QUITE meets the definition of 'Stand Your Ground' and that he should face trial. I wonder how they are going to find an unbiased jury in the state of Florida though.

Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #190 on: May 17, 2012, 02:33:01 PM »
I've discussed this topic a hundred times, so I'm just going to condense what I think.

1. Zimmerman being convicted is going to come down to who attacked who first, but even under the SYG law, it has to meet grievous bodily harm or death for deadly force to be relevant.

2. I think SYG is being horribly mis-applied, Brandon Baker's case is almost as bad.

3. The law needs to be re-written if it's being applied differently to different cases.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #191 on: May 17, 2012, 02:46:52 PM »
Just heard on HLN that the gunshot pattern on TM was of 'intermediate distance, about 5 feet'.  Mike Brooks says that's a bit vague, and would prefer seeing a comparison of patterns to confirm.

So would I. 

Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #192 on: May 17, 2012, 02:48:05 PM »
Just heard on HLN that the gunshot pattern on TM was of 'intermediate distance, about 5 feet'.  Mike Brooks says that's a bit vague, and would prefer seeing a comparison of patterns to confirm.

So would I.

Trayvon apparently had injured knuckles according to the news, but it still doesn't mean much.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #193 on: May 17, 2012, 02:55:07 PM »
You can injure knuckles many ways - I'd have to see injuries in order to make a guess (abrasion from landing on concrete? laceration from GZ's teeth? something unrelated?).  GSR only comes from firearms.

Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #194 on: May 17, 2012, 03:08:36 PM »
Yeah, and they could be from self defense as well. Same as Zimmerman's head injuries could be self-inflicted.

Regardless of what happens, Stand Your Ground should be reviewed. I have a serious issue with anyone being able to follow someone, attack/get attacked and then kill the other. The act of following someone alone and setting up a confrontation by not leaving when you could leave, is a big problem.

I'm a gun owner, and in my state if you're outside of your home and someone comes after you, you have a duty to retreat if safe to do so. You can be prosecuted even if you do everything right though.

So you've got "Defend yourself for real, possibly go to jail" and "Defend yourself when you had the ability to leave, and don't go to jail". There has to be something better.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #195 on: May 17, 2012, 03:16:53 PM »
The other case in Florida, where the abused spouse went to jail for discharging it but not shooting her husband. He was on the new and said that the abuse charges were overhyped and that he never threatened her. Pissed me off to see this guy on the news lying about it as smoothly as he was.


Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #196 on: May 17, 2012, 03:19:51 PM »
The other case in Florida, where the abused spouse went to jail for discharging it but not shooting her husband. He was on the new and said that the abuse charges were overhyped and that he never threatened her. Pissed me off to see this guy on the news lying about it as smoothly as he was.

Yeah, he lied and admitted it didn't he? She didn't even shoot him, yet she could get 20 years? What a backwards system that is.

What's sad is, had she killed him, she may not be seeing jail time. Then again, she's black so it probably wouldn't have mattered.

Look up the case of Brandon Baker too, another Florida SYG case. Off duty security guard (and war vet) follows him because he's driving erratically. They stop, Baker approaches his car "aggressively" and gets pepper sprayed.

Then Baker tries to punch him and gets shot. Guy who shot him is off the hook.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #197 on: May 17, 2012, 03:30:34 PM »
Yeah, and they could be from self defense as well. Same as Zimmerman's head injuries could be self-inflicted.

Regardless of what happens, Stand Your Ground should be reviewed. I have a serious issue with anyone being able to follow someone, attack/get attacked and then kill the other. The act of following someone alone and setting up a confrontation by not leaving when you could leave, is a big problem.

I'm a gun owner, and in my state if you're outside of your home and someone comes after you, you have a duty to retreat if safe to do so. You can be prosecuted even if you do everything right though.

So you've got "Defend yourself for real, possibly go to jail" and "Defend yourself when you had the ability to leave, and don't go to jail". There has to be something better.

Pretty much on the same page with you here.  I'm going to be following the case as much as I can.

Offline elone

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #198 on: May 17, 2012, 11:44:53 PM »
Just heard on HLN that the gunshot pattern on TM was of 'intermediate distance, about 5 feet'.  Mike Brooks says that's a bit vague, and would prefer seeing a comparison of patterns to confirm.

So would I.

There would be no powder tattoo at five foot range. the marks on Trayvon indicated a mark of approximately 2 inches in diameter according to the autopsy report that I just read. Here is a study:

http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_21/iss_2/JFS212760367.pdf

A 2 inch marking would indicate a range of less than 6 inches. The only definitive way to know is to use the same gun and ammunition on a live target. Apparently paper or dead animals do not give the same results. Also, if the gun were in direct contact there would be burning present. Hopefully there were photographs taken with a ruler over the wound. Different people also apparently measure differently, some taking into consideration every stray piece of powder, some the main markings.

At any rate, 5 foot is totally unrealistic.

Update from The Washington Post 5/18/12

"A lab report, based on an examination of the two sweatshirts Martin was wearing, found holes and gunshot residue consistent with a “contact shot,” meaning the gun was pressed against Martin’s chest. An autopsy report said that the gunshot wound indicated he was shot from an “intermediate range,” which experts say is between one and 18 inches away."



« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 07:08:34 AM by elone »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #199 on: May 18, 2012, 08:45:31 PM »
That's why  I have such an issue with vague terms like 'intermediate' range.  I'd be calling 1'-18" between point-blank range and close range.