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Author Topic: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.  (Read 12161 times)

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Offline vtboyTopic starter

Horrific enough in their own right, the lynchings which were trademarks of the Jim Crow south were made all the more appalling by the complicity, active or tacit, of state and local police, prosecutors, and courts. I fail to see how the response of both police and prosecutor to Trayvon Martin's likely lynching may be viewed as different in kind or wickedness. 

The "stand your ground" statute the police claim deprived them of probable cause to arrest Trayvon's admitted killer may be viewed through the following link (the relevant provision is paragraph 3):

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

The danger inherent in the law is patent, and one has to wonder what Florida's legislators intended, if not to encourage incidents like this one. Even with the law's evident failings, though, the conclusion of police, that the killer's self-serving profession of fear was sufficient to dispel probable cause, stands as an indictment of their own office.

Sometimes I think I no longer recognize this country, and then sadly I realize I do.

Offline Singularity

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2012, 01:38:09 PM »
Yeah the Sanford Police are immersed in the rot up to their necks.

It's almost as if when they responded to the shooting, they asked him, "was this self defense?"

To which he responded. "Uhh, yea, sure!"

Prompting the cops to shrug, turn about and do nothing.
[/font]

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2012, 01:41:21 PM »
1. The failure of the Sanford, FL police to follow up on a man with a hisotry of hurried judgments is tragic yes but it's not a criminal conspiracy.
2. While I feel for the family, I am a LITTLE dubious about the profession of the girlfriend and her recollection of the call.

That being said... do I think Mr. Zimmerman shot down Trayvon Martin in a moment of fear or hyped up authority as a 'guard of the community'? Yes, I think he did willfully, and without a clear and present danger from the poor boy, shoot him out of hand.

That doesn't mean it was a lynching. I think it was, at least in part, racially motivated and Zimmerman was profiling the poor kid. I think he was a jumped up little bureaucrat who was given too much authority and had illegally brought a gun to his job. (the rules he operated on didn't call for sidearms).

I'm calling it a tragedy..and that is what is was.. it was NOT a lynching.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2012, 01:46:51 PM »
I was disgusted to hear that Geraldo Rivera is blathering on that Trayvon's hoodie was part of the reason he got shot.  When he got called out on how that's just like blaming a rape victim for what she was wearing, Geraldo responded:

Quote
“The woman in six-inch heels a short skirt and a low-cut blouse is no threat to you, but you tell me, what would you do if you saw a young man, black man or a Latino man coming your way on the sidewalks with his face hidden? I tell you what, you’d walk across the street or you’d put your head down and not make eye contact,” he said.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74392_Page2.html

Frankly, I'd like to show him how much of a threat a six-inch stiletto heel can be by standing on his... instep (physics is a wonderful thing, as is the concept of lb/in2).  Zimmerman had a gun.  If I had a gun and a young man with a hoodie was walking towards me, I wouldn't consider him a threat for the simple fact of the 'Great Equalizer' in my concealed carry holster.  If he was running (or even walking quickly) away from me, I wouldn't consider him a threat even if I didn't have a gun.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2012, 01:49:00 PM »
1. The failure of the Sanford, FL police to follow up on a man with a hisotry of hurried judgments is tragic yes but it's not a criminal conspiracy.
2. While I feel for the family, I am a LITTLE dubious about the profession of the girlfriend and her recollection of the call.

That being said... do I think Mr. Zimmerman shot down Trayvon Martin in a moment of fear or hyped up authority as a 'guard of the community'? Yes, I think he did willfully, and without a clear and present danger from the poor boy, shoot him out of hand.

That doesn't mean it was a lynching. I think it was, at least in part, racially motivated and Zimmerman was profiling the poor kid. I think he was a jumped up little bureaucrat who was given too much authority and had illegally brought a gun to his job. (the rules he operated on didn't call for sidearms).

I'm calling it a tragedy..and that is what is was.. it was NOT a lynching.

Zimmerman was not 'employed' by the gated community. He was self appointed.

And all you need do is listen to the 911 calls from the neighbors and you can HEAR Trayvon screaming for help - screaming for his life - before the gunshot. Not too mention, Zimmerman was TOLD by a police dispatcher to stand down and not follow Trayvon.

The whole case disgusts me to no end and I hope the FBI and the Justice Dept do throw Zimmerman in prison. Add the police chief and everyone else who muddled this case up.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2012, 01:53:32 PM »
What gets me people always had a common law right to self-defense with reasonable force, as a disabled person that is even broader as long as there was an immediate threat. This law ,and I live in Florida, goes way beyond that common sense principle.

Say someone goes after me on the street with a knife I would in my case be justified in using a gun the law favors me since I would need superior force to counter my disability drawback in the fight, but if he was walking off after drawing the gun I could not shoot the threat is over.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 02:01:17 PM »
Zimmerman was not 'employed' by the gated community. He was self appointed.

And all you need do is listen to the 911 calls from the neighbors and you can HEAR Trayvon screaming for help - screaming for his life - before the gunshot. Not too mention, Zimmerman was TOLD by a police dispatcher to stand down and not follow Trayvon.

The whole case disgusts me to no end and I hope the FBI and the Justice Dept do throw Zimmerman in prison. Add the police chief and everyone else who muddled this case up.

Oh it disgusts me.. And yeah I knew he was a volunteer.. but the regs of the neighborhood watch didn't call for him to be armed and he was. The man has a history of 'jumping the gun' as can be seen by his calls to the cops.

Do I think he killed that boy.. yes. Did I think it was premeditated.. I'm not sure.. He killed that kid. Yes. Definitely. Without cause in my opinon. Was it a lynching. No. It was, at least in part, racially motivated despite everything Zimmerman and family have said. He killed that kid. Without cause in my opinion.

It was NOT a lynching though

Offline vtboyTopic starter

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2012, 02:05:51 PM »
1. The failure of the Sanford, FL police to follow up on a man with a hisotry of hurried judgments is tragic yes but it's not a criminal conspiracy.
2. While I feel for the family, I am a LITTLE dubious about the profession of the girlfriend and her recollection of the call.

That being said... do I think Mr. Zimmerman shot down Trayvon Martin in a moment of fear or hyped up authority as a 'guard of the community'? Yes, I think he did willfully, and without a clear and present danger from the poor boy, shoot him out of hand.

That doesn't mean it was a lynching. I think it was, at least in part, racially motivated and Zimmerman was profiling the poor kid. I think he was a jumped up little bureaucrat who was given too much authority and had illegally brought a gun to his job. (the rules he operated on didn't call for sidearms).

I'm calling it a tragedy..and that is what is was.. it was NOT a lynching.

It will be for a jury, assuming the case ever reaches one, to determine whether Zimmerman's act was murder and, if Florida has a hate crime law, whether Martin's color figured into the crime. If the answer to both questions is "yes", this was a lynching. But even if this is ultimately determined to be something else -- a justifiable use of deadly force, a tragic error, a psychotic episode, or some other species of homicide -- what makes it astonishingly similar to a lynching, in my mind, is the utter indifference of officials to the violent death of a black kid at the hands of a white posse. For the police to have concluded probable cause was lacking, solely on the basis of the killer's statement, and in disregard of evidence that the killer had been stalking this kid, is very much the way authorities treated the harvest of the strange fruit of southern trees.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 02:10:24 PM »
It will be for a jury, assuming the case ever reaches one, to determine whether Zimmerman's act was murder and, if Florida has a hate crime law, whether Martin's color figured into the crime. If the answer to both questions is "yes", this was a lynching. But even if this is ultimately determined to be something else -- a justifiable use of deadly force, a tragic error, a psychotic episode, or some other species of homicide -- what makes it astonishingly similar to a lynching, in my mind, is the utter indifference of officials to the violent death of a black kid at the hands of a white posse. For the police to have concluded probable cause was lacking, solely on the basis of the killer's statement, and in disregard of evidence that the killer had been stalking this kid, is very much the way authorities treated the harvest of the strange fruit of southern trees.

Not.. it will be a murder with a hate crime cause. A lynching is an extralegal murder by a group. One on one.. it's MURDER. I dislike it being promoted as such because it: a) wasn't. b.) if he is guilty it gives the defense leverage to push it out.

The media likes using inflamatory terms that don't apply. It was one on one. A frightened, and possibly racist, man with a gun shooting down a poor boy whose only crime was trying to avoid him while being black.

I'm more than a little concerned about the lack of speed by the Sanford cops in doing ANYTHING in the case till the feds started doing oversight.

Offline vtboyTopic starter

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2012, 02:49:48 PM »
Not.. it will be a murder with a hate crime cause. A lynching is an extralegal murder by a group. One on one.. it's MURDER. I dislike it being promoted as such because it: a) wasn't. b.) if he is guilty it gives the defense leverage to push it out.

The media likes using inflamatory terms that don't apply. It was one on one. A frightened, and possibly racist, man with a gun shooting down a poor boy whose only crime was trying to avoid him while being black.

I'm more than a little concerned about the lack of speed by the Sanford cops in doing ANYTHING in the case till the feds started doing oversight.

OK, not a lynching because no mob.

The official sin was not, however, lack of dispatch, as you suggest. Indeed, the police acted with great alacrity in concluding Zimmerman was blameless. I understand the police made their determination not to arrest in less than an hour and were adamant in their refusal to allow evidence to get in its way. And then, stalwart adherents to due process that they are, the police remained firm in their conviction, and in their aversion to evidence, despite the opportunity for clearer reflection afforded by the passage of the next three weeks. I have seen petit larcenies investigated with greater diligence and urgency.

Black Martin is dead under circumstances establishing probable cause for murder or at least voluntary manslaughter. White Zimmerman remains at liberty.

Now, how again is this different from the classic official reaction to tree limbs festooned with black corpses?

Offline vtboyTopic starter

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 03:12:32 PM »
I was disgusted to hear that Geraldo Rivera is blathering on that Trayvon's hoodie was part of the reason he got shot.  When he got called out on how that's just like blaming a rape victim for what she was wearing, Geraldo responded:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74392_Page2.html

Frankly, I'd like to show him how much of a threat a six-inch stiletto heel can be by standing on his... instep (physics is a wonderful thing, as is the concept of lb/in2).  Zimmerman had a gun.  If I had a gun and a young man with a hoodie was walking towards me, I wouldn't consider him a threat for the simple fact of the 'Great Equalizer' in my concealed carry holster.  If he was running (or even walking quickly) away from me, I wouldn't consider him a threat even if I didn't have a gun.

Of course, walking to the other side of the street or avoiding eye contact are preferred responses to that of shooting the hoodied kid in states that have not adopted the NRA-drafted "stand your ground" law.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2012, 03:34:13 PM »
My point is that Geraldo suggested that it is 'reasonable' to make a threat-response just because a non-Caucasian is wearing a hoodie, not whether one threat-response is better than another.

Black Martin is dead under circumstances establishing probable cause for murder or at least voluntary manslaughter. White Hispanic Zimmerman remains at liberty.

If we're going with facts, here.

If it was racially motivated (and at least one of the 911 calls does seem to indicate bias), it is no less a hate crime than NJ v. Ravi earlier this month.  I'd even class it as more of a hate crime, as Ravi didn't physically push his roommate off the George Washington Bridge, while Zimmerman took the effort to aim and fire.

I'm glad that the FBI is investigating.  I can't, for the life of me, come up with a rational explanation for why Zimmerman wasn't arrested - hell, when a cop shoots someone, they confiscate his gun, and it goes through Internal Affairs.  This man shows every symptom of 'big fish, small pond' when you consider his nearly 50 911 calls over the past year where he reported open garages and 'suspicious individuals'.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2012, 03:35:55 PM »

Now, how again is this different from the classic official reaction to tree limbs festooned with black corpses?

It perpetuates an outlook that makes it a sin to be white (or looking white in Zimmerman's case..he's hispanic according to his family). I have taken a TON of crap in service and overseas because I have a southern accent.

My nose is crooked because of it. I got DOZENS of boxer fractures in my hands for being 'southern american'. I've had the race/racist card played on me DOZENS of times because the offender I pulled up was not white. I had to explain myself in front of a Master Chief for doing my damn job because some tool said I was 'racist'.

I hate to say it.. sometimes it's just a shooting. From what I have heard on the local news (Sanford is like an hour away from where I live), Zimmerman might have done the same thing to a white kid that didn't fit in (to his outlook) of people in the neighborhood.

It's a goddamn tragedy that Trayvon Martin got shot, and I personally think it was near criminally inept for the cops to drag their feet like they did. If they had a lick of sense they would have laid out a press conference to defuse the media situation and followed up with a more through investigation.

I think personally Zimmerman jumped the gun..and the poor kid paid the price. I also think the damn media is stirring things up. I was in Maryland when the Beltway sniper was around and the media there demonstrated how they could really FUCK up things.

And speaking as a southerner who grew up in the South, with a side trip to Europe, and who can trace my family tree in the South (aside from Native Americans) to the 1600s.. I find the 'quaint southern tradition' crap offensive. Most of us, media to the contrary, have grown up and matured.


FYI.. everytime I got called up in service for being a 'redneck racist' I've had someone who wasn't white stand up and call bullshit. And anything coming out of Geraldo's mouth is automatically flagged as 'trying to get a rise out of the audience' in my book.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 03:42:06 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Sabre

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2012, 04:14:07 PM »
I'm glad that the FBI is investigating.  I can't, for the life of me, come up with a rational explanation for why Zimmerman wasn't arrested

If people have difficulty, it's because they are always affected by the very first story in which they learn about this shooting.  And in the first week it was dominated by the old media adage of race war broiling under the everyday surface of America.

First Law of Media: offer the viewer the opportunity to debate the conclusions, but force him to accept the form of the argument.  You get to debate whether or not Zimmerman here is a white, old-time Jim Crow one-man lynch mob: "He's a Klansman!" or "Innocent until proven guilty!" or whether this is a new racism in America, as long as you unconsciously accept that Martin died because he was the wrong race at the wrong time.  Add in a dash of cheap rhetoric - lynching, Jim Crow, Deep South, 'white' on black hate crime - and you've got ratings.  Juicy race war brought to you by Revlon and Cash4Gold.com.

Zimmerman is guilty (without trial as far as the rest of the nation is concerned), but as the usual sacrifice so none of us have to feel guilty.  "He's racist!"  Which is the instant call for everyone to be disgusted with him and know at least they're normal and well-adjusted right before they go back to living isolated lives in gated communities suspicious of neighbors and anyone that doesn't drive.  The problem with the logic, however, is how Zimmerman somehow missed 40+ chances to be racist in the past year he had been making phone calls to the police.  Unless these were all cases of open windows or strangers who happened to be not-black until Rayvon Martin appeared, the irrationality of racism seems unlikely.

This is a very different kind of sociopathy, unfortunately.  Siege mentality, the perversion of the old Castle Doctrine that creeps into gated communities that Zimmerman and his neighbors live in.  Martin's most damning crime in Zimmerman's eyes was likely being a trespassing outsider walking in a community where everyone drove.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2012, 04:23:10 PM »

This is a very different kind of sociopathy, unfortunately.  Siege mentality, the perversion of the old Castle Doctrine that creeps into gated communities that Zimmerman and his neighbors live in.  Martin's most damning crime in Zimmerman's eyes was likely being a trespassing outsider walking in a community where everyone drove.

I think, either from hate or fear, that Zimmerman reacted badly in a situation, similar he had been told in the past to avoid doing by the police, and shot that boy.

The tragedy is that he killed an innocent kid. I don't exactly think the law as cited in the beginning post completely clears him and there should have been more looking into it.

I agree the media is stirring this up for all it's worth.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 04:44:35 PM »
My point is that Geraldo suggested that it is 'reasonable' to make a threat-response just because a non-Caucasian is wearing a hoodie, not whether one threat-response is better than another.

The issue is that there is a higher probability that someone in a hoodie is likely to BE a threat.  Especially since hoodies are still the mark of a likely gang member.  Personally I love hoodies, but unfortunately, a lot of disaffected youths do to, and a lot of them seem to be drawn to violence.  And given that a lot of coloured gangs are equally, if not more racist, than whites, I'm not sure I blame Mr. Riviera his statement (Most of the really violent coloured gangs tend to attack or focus on a single nationality, often whites, as the reason for their 'predicament' and will assault.  Racism, sadly, isn't a white only activity, despite what the media, or gangs want to imply.  It's equal opportunity hatemongering.)  It's ugly, but it's got an element of truth.

However, Mr. Zimmerman was not justified in his actions.  He had no probable cause, this was premeditated.  He had a gun, and intent to use it.  This is Murder 1.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 04:51:48 PM »
However, Mr. Zimmerman was not justified in his actions.  He had no probable cause, this was premeditated.  He had a gun, and intent to use it.  This is Murder 1.

I don't think it was premeditated.. this has the feel of a guy strutting his stuff off and letting adrenaline and fear push him to do something stupid. It's still murder.. but I'm not sure he MEANT to shoot the poor kid till he pulled the gun and shot.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 05:00:24 PM »
I don't think it was premeditated.. this has the feel of a guy strutting his stuff off and letting adrenaline and fear push him to do something stupid. It's still murder.. but I'm not sure he MEANT to shoot the poor kid till he pulled the gun and shot.
I disagree.  He brought a gun, where his job didn't entail the right, and was likely to use it.

Of course, the courts are a better way to judge this.  But I hold he should be tried under first degree murder.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2012, 05:07:38 PM »
Again, it WASN'T his job. At all. He was self appointed. Period. He is a vigilante plain and simple.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2012, 05:11:40 PM »
Again, it WASN'T his job. At all. He was self appointed. Period. He is a vigilante plain and simple.

Neighborhood watch .. they are all volunteers. I know that he broke the rules with the gun..

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2012, 05:12:51 PM »
Again, it WASN'T his job. At all. He was self appointed. Period. He is a vigilante plain and simple.
Exactly, Murder 1.  He intended to kill someone. Trayvon Martin was in the wrong place and was the poor victim.

Offline Sabre

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2012, 06:00:33 PM »
And all you need do is listen to the 911 calls from the neighbors and you can HEAR Trayvon screaming for help - screaming for his life - before the gunshot.

The Sanford Police are saying the voice belonged to Zimmerman.

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Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2012, 06:21:33 PM »
The Sanford Police are saying the voice belonged to Zimmerman.
That is where I would demand a voice analysis be done.

Offline DeMalachine

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2012, 06:25:31 PM »
The Sanford Police are saying the voice belonged to Zimmerman.

Yeah, I'm sure I'd be yelling for help if I had a gun and someone was threatening me with a bag of Skittles and a can of drink. :-/

Offline vtboyTopic starter

Re: Trayvon Martin and the return of a quaint southern tradition.
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2012, 06:27:56 PM »
If people have difficulty, it's because they are always affected by the very first story in which they learn about this shooting.  And in the first week it was dominated by the old media adage of race war broiling under the everyday surface of America.

First Law of Media: offer the viewer the opportunity to debate the conclusions, but force him to accept the form of the argument.  You get to debate whether or not Zimmerman here is a white, old-time Jim Crow one-man lynch mob: "He's a Klansman!" or "Innocent until proven guilty!" or whether this is a new racism in America, as long as you unconsciously accept that Martin died because he was the wrong race at the wrong time.  Add in a dash of cheap rhetoric - lynching, Jim Crow, Deep South, 'white' on black hate crime - and you've got ratings.  Juicy race war brought to you by Revlon and Cash4Gold.com.

Zimmerman is guilty (without trial as far as the rest of the nation is concerned), but as the usual sacrifice so none of us have to feel guilty.  "He's racist!"  Which is the instant call for everyone to be disgusted with him and know at least they're normal and well-adjusted right before they go back to living isolated lives in gated communities suspicious of neighbors and anyone that doesn't drive.  The problem with the logic, however, is how Zimmerman somehow missed 40+ chances to be racist in the past year he had been making phone calls to the police.  Unless these were all cases of open windows or strangers who happened to be not-black until Rayvon Martin appeared, the irrationality of racism seems unlikely.

This is a very different kind of sociopathy, unfortunately.  Siege mentality, the perversion of the old Castle Doctrine that creeps into gated communities that Zimmerman and his neighbors live in.  Martin's most damning crime in Zimmerman's eyes was likely being a trespassing outsider walking in a community where everyone drove.

Let's be clear here. The focus of the media, and of this thread, has not been Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, but official indifference to the killing of a 17 year-old black kid, without any apparent objective justification. They authorities were also indifferent to repeated inquiries made by the family when the Trayvon went missing, failing for days to notify them of his killing.

Zimmerman's reasons for the shooting would certainly be of paramount importance to a jury in deciding guilt or innocence under Florida's ridiculous "stand your ground" law. So, too, if Florida has a hate crime law. Unfortunately, the police took it upon themselves to usurp the jury's function by effectively acquitting Zimmerman of all charges through the simple expedient of concluding no probable cause for his arrest.

In the absence of evidence virtually excluding any reasonable possibility Zimmerman acted out of anything but a rational and honestly held belief he was the target of an attack (the "stand your ground" legal standard), however, it is inconceivable the police could fairly have concluded they lacked probable cause to arrest him for murder or manslaughter. Even indulging the assumption the initial decision was the product of mere ineptitude, adherence to that decision over the ensuing three weeks, when it must have been considered coolly at all levels of the chain of command, speaks of something far worse than incompetence. 

However faulty its judgments in other circumstances, the media has been entirely correct in the attention it has devoted to the deplorable conduct of the police in giving Zimmerman a "get-out-of jail free pass" and in questioning whether race played a part. Zimmerman's racial animus, or lack thereof, has never been the main thrust of the story.