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Author Topic: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!  (Read 12894 times)

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Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #100 on: March 17, 2012, 05:29:10 PM »
"They've been working on it for a long time" is an excuse for poor writing and not thinking things through?

You haven't demonstrated it's poor. You haven't demonstrated it's not thought through.

You're clearly not seeing the bigger picture. Up to that point, everything involving synthetics has been, essentially, an exploration of what separates synthetic from non-synthetic life.

A bigger picture, at this point, that seems entirely fabricated by your hand from whole cloth. The stuff involving synthetics is an exploration about a single, specific species and a single, specific individual. Nobody compares the Geth to the Krogan. Nobody compares the Genophage to re-writing or destroying the heretic Geth. The relationship between the Geth and the organic species is not brought up at the end of the game. Everything about synthetic life has been allowing the player to decide whether synthetics, once they get to the point where they get self aware enough to act like organics, deserve to be treated as living beings who deserve the same moral and ethical consideration as organic beings. The choices you can make are as far as it goes. It's a yes or no question, and in the case of the Geth, it's not even an honest question because the Quarians are a race of Snidely Whiplashes to a group of peaceniks who are content to be isolated and live in a magic sphere by themselves. And in the case of the Geth and EDI, it's painfull obvious how they are different non-Synthetics. Joker can't put himself in a space or a new body, Hemingway.

No one gave a flying fuck what happened to EVA.

It's a pretty deep question, especially when you extrapolate into the future.

This is really where I get where Inkidu and bioware are coming from in their reaction to the outcry about the endings.

You really had a lot of good, interesting things to say before this that made me think about the game and what happened. But I just cannot begin to see all of the things you want to see here. Mass Effect does not ask this question, and even if it does, not to the depth you insist it does.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #101 on: March 17, 2012, 05:48:15 PM »
ending spoilers
I'm not going to restate all the reasons ME3's ending is an incoherent mess. If you're interested, there are plenty of threads on the BioWare forums outlining the issues. To mention a few that I've already brought up: the Catalyst ( that is the Starchild specifically ) is a deus ex machina. It contradicts what Reapers have said in previous encounters. The "logic" of the Catalyst makes no sense ( to say he's basically saying they're destroying you so you won't create synthetics that destroy you is not even an exaggeration ).

To the question of synthetics versus organics, I think you're ignoring the implications of the Geth's Reaper code. It looks like a neural network - like a brain. This, I think, is pretty significant. It's an illustration that the Geth are essentially becoming more like organics. It's not just that they're sentient beings worthy of our moral consideration - there's a transhumanist theme to all of it. It's especially obvious if you see it in the context of the Synthesis ending: organics and synthetics moving toward a sort of common biology.

So, yeah, I still do wonder by what criteria the Crucible discriminates between synthetic and non-synthetic. If it doesn't affect hypothetically synthetics without blue boxes, then it seems like a very weak solution to me.

I'd also appreciate it if you dropped the condescending tone. Sounding like you have all the answers doesn't help your arguments in the least.

Edit: On the one thing you said, concerning EDI and the Geth, and how it's painfully obvious they're different from organics. Yes, true. However, a list of examples does not make for a rule. You can list things about them that make it obvious they're different, but that doesn't tell you anything about at what point they go from being synthetic to organic - or if they can at all. Or, put differently, at what point the Crucible's weapon would no longer affect them.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 07:57:43 PM by Hemingway »

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #102 on: March 17, 2012, 07:38:32 PM »
I'd also appreciate it if you dropped the condescending tone.

I apologize for that. I did use language stronger than I wanted to. If you can forgive me that and attribute it to nerd rage in the heat of the moment and not to any personal animosity directed towards you, I would be thankful.

Sounding like you have all the answers doesn't help your arguments in the least.

It doesn't do much for anyone, really. It's not the tone I want to use, and again, I'll apologize for that and ask you to forgive me becoming unduly heated.

To the question of synthetics versus organics, I think you're ignoring the implications of the Geth's Reaper code. It looks like a neural network - like a brain. This, I think, is pretty significant. It's an illustration that the Geth are essentially becoming more like organics. It's not just that they're sentient beings worthy of our moral consideration - there's a transhumanist theme to all of it. It's especially obvious if you see it in the context of the Synthesis ending: organics and synthetics moving toward a sort of common biology.

I'll grant you ignoring the implications. That's fair and true.

That having been said, I think you overestimate the significance of it in the context of looking at the game. The game does not place any more significance upon it than that it makes the Geth a greater danger to the Quarians - an empirical fact. The implication that the game engages with is that this upgrade makes the Geth more like the Reapers more than that it makes the Geth more like organics. If you save them, they do not act like organics do - their individualism does not demonstrably make them behave like any of the organic species. The Geth go on to demonstrate a nobility and kindness to creators who have for centuries bent themselves to no other goal beyond their extinction: Quarian efforts for peaceful co-existence with the Geth ended when the Quarians fled Rannoch and reflected such a minority view that the Geth are the only ones who remember that Quarians ever thought anything other than - and I am going to be reductionist here - "kill all Geth." And, at the end, the Reaper code upgrade does not make them enough like organics that the Citadel doesn't, for no discernible reason, destroy them by the same 'a space wizard did it' mechanism that destroying a single power coupling deactivates all Reapers. The Geth, post upgrade, become more like EDI than they do human beings.

The Synthesis ending is . . . muddled. The Reapers, who are already mentioned as synthetic and organic, are shown to be affected by the final lightshow like everyone else. I don't think that it's sufficiently developed for either of us to use it as strong evidence towards anything. 

I think, really, if the game wanted to do this, more would be made of biotics requiring mechanical implants, more of Commander Shepard and Kai Leng being significantly machine, or the moment when Shepard muses that he may just be an incredibly complex VI that believes itself Commander Shepard, Grunt and Miranda (who would be poster children for transhumanist themes in the game), or the many artificial enhancements Shepard can get in the games.

So, yeah, I still do wonder by what criteria the Crucible discriminates between synthetic and non-synthetic.

I don't think the themes of transhumanism you want to engage with are quite the same as asking why the Crucible, a device constructed over an unspecified number of cycles specifically to affect the Reapers who are more or less already synthesis life forms, affects EDI and the Geth.

You can list things about them that make it obvious they're different, but that doesn't tell you anything about at what point they go from being synthetic to organic - or if they can at all. Or, put differently, at what point the Crucible's weapon would no longer affect them.

The problem is, I guess, that EDI and the Geth being affected by the Crucible leads us to different places. It takes you to a realm of transhumanism and evokes thoughts about the setting and its lore. For me, it's just a plot hole and a false consequence of a sucky non-choice put in place for no other purpose than to create false tension. I don't think it's a fault of the game or a plot hole that it doesn't satisfy your interest in transhumanism.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #103 on: March 17, 2012, 07:57:19 PM »
Well, at least we agree that it makes no sense at all.

Endings spoilers/discussion
Because, yeah, my feeling is this: if Destroy only did that - destroyed the Reapers, precluding any chance of benefitting from Reaper technology and of ... Synthesis, then everyone would go with that. We're conditioned to hate the Reapers and fear their technology, basically. So they insert a negative side-effect to make the choice seem less tempting, with little to no regard for how it works, or what the implications are.

If you haven't checked out indoctrination theory, I would. I especially like how, if you assume that theory is correct, Destroy becomes the only winning move.

Ultimately, I think Destroy is the best option regardless. I want the Reapers gone. I want self-determination. I don't want to force everyone into a highly dubious evolution, and I certainly don't want to control the Reapers. I also think Control and Synthesis are both crude in the way they kill Shepard.

My main complaint about Synthesis ( one that, like what I brought up about Destroy, I don't see discussed enough ) is why he has to sacrifice himself. I mean, the Catalyst says add his "energy" to that of the Crucible. If you know a thing or two about physics, you know that's nonsense. There's nothing special about Shepard's energy. I assume his DNA is what is actually added - the information that makes up Shepard. But if that's the case, a lock of hair or some blood would be enough. If it's something else, like his memories, his experiences, and so on, then ... well, first of all they did a very poor job of explaining that, and secondly, they really ought to explain what's going on. Is Shepard special? Does the Synthesis ending make everyone like more like Shepard? Or ... Yeah, long story short, I think it's full of holes.

Control actually has fewer holes, though it leaves out something essential. I mean, I want the Reapers gone, right? I want them gone, but I don't want a Geth genocide on my hands. So, what if I control the Reapers, and ... you know, direct them all into the nearest sun? Yeah. Yeah, let's do that. Problem solved!

But, no. Apparently ... no.

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #104 on: March 17, 2012, 08:24:25 PM »
Ending Spoilers
I've got to go watch the Control Ending again, although I don't think it will answer the question. Does Control affect the Geth? Because it would double rustle all of my jimmies if the Control ending has the Citadel able to distinguish enough between Reaper and Geth so that only one gets controlled, but in the Destroy ending it can't tell the two apart and I have to kill all synthetics.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #105 on: March 17, 2012, 08:44:07 PM »
Ending Spoilers
I've got to go watch the Control Ending again, although I don't think it will answer the question. Does Control affect the Geth? Because it would double rustle all of my jimmies if the Control ending has the Citadel able to distinguish enough between Reaper and Geth so that only one gets controlled, but in the Destroy ending it can't tell the two apart and I have to kill all synthetics.

Well, damn. I hadn't thought of that angle. It definitely isn't implied that the Geth are affected. Or ... EDI. Which, you know, would be really weird. I mean, with Joker and ...

Offline NotoriusBEN

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #106 on: March 18, 2012, 04:59:14 AM »
spoiler'ed for end game discussion
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide


which is why the indoctrination theory is so intriguing. Granted, almost anything can be hung up on the bad writing (BSN is an echo chamber of vitriol, but a user there mentioned that the AI is space Hitler with a Mein Kompf complex. The AI used words like Solution, harvest, and ascending to describe mass genocide and pulpification.

I've read transcripts about the endings and listened to the Catalyst and Shepard talking. Depending on your EMS, you are presented with 1, 2 or all 3 choices. During each of those reads, the catalyst alters or omits certain arguments or statements, further trying to influence you away from the destroy option.

It's hard to pick up on your first run through, since your still in WTF mode, and the way its written doesnt allow the exposition to set in, but the Catalyst is trying to direct you away from the Destroy option.  Even when Shepard asks for peace in the synthesis option, the catalyst brushes it aside and just says the cycle will end. The reason many people are dubious of a synthesis ending is because that is what the reapers are... machines with organic pulp in them.

Pulling back to a metagame aspect, If you pick destroy with a High enough EMS, Shepard draws breath in the rubble. I know its a leap of faith but the catalyst made mention that all synthetics would be destroyed and even mentioned you were part synthetic. So two lines of thought occur with catalyst's exposition and what evidence we are presented with:

1) Catalyst is lying through its teeth, sprinkling truth throughout like TIM trying to get you over toward its line of thinking.
Shepard is ok and his synthetics are still working. If his synthetics are working, wouldnt other synthetics be working as well? So that means the geth and edi are also ok?

2) The Catalyst is actually telling the truth at this part. Shepard is part organic. Organic enough to live without the synthetic parts. Which are now inert pieces of metal close to vital organs. We could go a little bit further in this logic train and say that Shepard wont be living much longer after the quick wipe to credits.

That's my supposition. I vote indoctrination theory and a dirty lying catalyst because the game doesnt deserve such horrible writing that didnt get peer reviewed by the rest of the writing staff at Bioware.

Spoilered Transcript with bolded type that is intriguing.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Cat: Wake up.
Shep: What? Where am I?
Cat:  The citadel, its my home.
Shep:  Who are you?
Cat:  I am the catalyst.
Shep:  I thought the citadel was the catalyst?
Cat:  No the citadel is a part of me.
Shep:  I need to stop the reapers. Do you know how to do that?
Cat:  The reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution.
Shep:  Solution? To what?
Cat:  Chaos.  You bring it on yourselves. The created, will always rebel against their creators. But we found a way to stop that from
        happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle.
Shep:  By wiping out organic life?
Cat:  No, we harvest advanced civilizations. Leaving the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here.
Shep:  But you killed the rest...
Cat:  We helped them ascend, so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.
Shep:  I think we'd rather keep our own form.
Cat:  No, you cant. Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics. We've created the cycle so that never happens. That's the
        solution.

Dialogue wheel:
  -- You'll never understand. (chosen option. both merge to same dialogue tree path)
  -- We dont want to be preserved!

Shep:  But you're taking away our future. Without a future we have no hope. Without hope, we might as well be machines. Programmed
          to do what we're told.
Cat:  You dont need hope. The fact that your standing here, the first organic to do so, proves it. But it also proves my solution won't
        work anymore.
Shep:  So now what?
Cat:  That depends on you.
Shep:  What do you mean?
Cat:  The crucible changed me. Created new... possibilities. But I cant make them happen. And I wont.
Shep:  Make what happen?

Destroy Option:

Cat:  What you came here to do. You want to destroy us. You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the geth. Even you are partly synthetic.
Shep: But the reapers will be destroyed?
Cat: Yes, but the peace wont last. Soon your children will create synthetics and the chaos will come back.
Shep: Maybe...

Control Option:

Cat: Or do you think you can control us?
Shep: Huh. So the Illusive Man was right after all.
Cat: Yes. But he could never have taken control... because we already controlled him.
Shep: But I can...
Cat:  You will die. You will control us. But you will lose everything you have.
Shep: But the reapers will obey me?
Cat:  Yes.

Synthesis Option:

Cat:  There is another solution
Shep: Yeah?
Cat: Synthesis...
Shep:  And that is?
Cat: Add your energy to the crucible's. Everything you are will be absorbed, and sent out. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new DNA.
Shep: I... dont know...
Cat: Why not? Synthetics are already apart of you. Can you imagine your life without them?
Shep: And there will be peace?
Cat: The cycle will end. Synthesis is the final evolution of life,
but we need each other to make it happen. You have a difficult decision.

All endings come back to this point.

Cat:  Releasing the energy of the crucible *will* end the cycle. But it will also destroy the mass relays. The paths are open. But you have to chose.




Offline Driskoll

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #107 on: March 18, 2012, 12:52:20 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
That's my supposition. I vote indoctrination theory and a dirty lying catalyst because the game doesn't deserve such horrible writing that didn't get peer reviewed by the rest of the writing staff at Bioware.

The more I think about the indoctrination theory the more I believe it must be true. The biggest support for me is probably one of the more subtle aspects to the last ten minutes of the game. When the Catalyst presents the choices the player can make, taking control of the reapers is presented in a blue light, symbolizing a paragon action. Alternatively destroying the reapers and all synthetic life is presented in red light, symbolizing a renegade action. Either this is done on purpose to signal to the player that something's wrong here, as I believe, or Bioware as completely lost it.

I can't get over the fact that it's suggesting taking control of the reapers is the right decision, since minutes before my maxed out paragon Shep argued with the Illusive Man that even attempting something like that was wrong. I agree with Shepard's stance that reaper control would give humanity too much power, yet at the end the blue light indicates it is in fact the paragon or "good" option. Is Bioware really telling me that the Illusive Man had it right all along?

I originally thought the synthetic destruction option was presented in red because it would mean destroying the reapers at the cost of committing the genocide of the geth. But part of me just can't accept that the goal Shepard has been working towards is really the "bad" option here. It just seems too cruel to go that far only to find out that stopping the reapers also means destroying an entire race of synthetics, as well as every AI like EDI. As Ben put it, I'm also dubious of the synthesis ending and what that really means for Shepard.

For now, I'm just going to believe in the indoctrination theory until a better explanation comes along or a new ending is released through dlc. I want to believe the rumors that ending the game like this was necessary because of the leak and Bioware intends to fix it, but I'm not sure that I do.   

« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 03:21:43 PM by Driskoll »

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #108 on: March 18, 2012, 02:22:32 PM »
An article on Bioware and the ending:  http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/mass-effect-3/1221051p1.html

Offline SilentGeminiTopic starter

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2012, 12:05:52 AM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I have to disagree. My only complaint was that they didn't elaborate on what happens after everything goes down. I would have liked to see what happened to all the individual factions after my final decisions affected them (did all the races live peacefully on Earth, did any of the civilizations manage to build new technology and new Mass Relays) but ultimately, this series is a wartime scenario. Main characters have a tendency to die in them. That and the fact Shepard lasted as long as he did against a scourge of galactic proportions such as the Reapers? You had to figure his luck was going to run out at some point.

I don't remember who said it, but the Crucible did in fact warn Shepard that the Geth would be affected by the destruction of all synthetics. I assumed EDI would be lumped in seeing as she too was a synthetic.

Not saying I wouldn't have preferred a different outcome, but I'm willing to accept this one. All in all, I still love the game and will definitely give it another play through. Just not right now. Been stuck in Mass Effect for almost the last two weeks.

Offline Heaven Sent Blossom

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Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #110 on: March 19, 2012, 12:31:03 AM »
Ultimately I don't care if they rewrite the ending. I've played, read and watched plenty of very good things that ended in a very lackluster manner and I've never felt like I was owed a better ending. I don't really feel like the journey was wasted and I would gladly play a hundred games with endings just as bad, if not worse, than the Mass Effect 3 finale if it meant that the hours of the game before it were as well put together and exciting as it was right up until
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
the penultimate showdown with Captain Anime on the Asari homeworld. I don't like plot armour at the best of times, but something about the terrible Kai Leng character being the one to give me a JRPG moment of my in game actions being rendered invalid by the following cut scene? Yeah that's pretty much where the game really lost me, everything after that was just icing on the shit cake. Although I confess that the storming of Earth drew me back in to make the ending sting a little more than it would have done without that spike of emotion beforehand.
However I really hope they learn a lesson from this, and never repeat the decision to freeze out the rest of the writing staff so the lead writer can apply his "amazing" idea to create "mystery" and "speculation" about the ending.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 12:34:37 AM by Heaven Sent Blossom »

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #111 on: March 19, 2012, 12:40:24 AM »
However I really hope they learn a lesson from this, and never repeat the decision to freeze out the rest of the writing staff so the lead writer can apply his "amazing" idea to create "mystery" and "speculation" about the ending.
Not sure I follow?  What did Bioware do?

Offline Destiny Ascension

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #112 on: March 19, 2012, 03:12:26 AM »
Ah, so the big discussion is here too... heh...

Well, since its ME3 and I've said my fill on the endings on the Bioware forums, all I can say is...

Garrus <3

Offline Heaven Sent Blossom

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Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #113 on: March 19, 2012, 04:05:11 AM »
Not sure I follow?  What did Bioware do?

Hudson and Walters set themselves apart from the rest of the writing team to do the ending on their own, which is very different to how the rest of the game was written and the "peer review" system used. If "Final Hours" is to be believed then Hudson and Walters designed the ending to get people talking, in fact there are pictures of a sheet of paper with some ideas hastily scribbled down with the key thing being at the bottom of the page where "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" is written.
There is, of course, no way of knowing for sure that peer review would have saved the ending. However given the overall quality of the game before the nose dive, and the quality of the rest of the series in general, I think it's not the most out their assumption to say that it would have helped a lot.

Enough about that though, I feel more inclined to talk about the awesome things in Mass Effect 3. Specifically the multiplayer and how it is probably the best "horde mode" content I've played so far. After all, what other game lets you do this:

Let's Krogan: Never be better than Commander Shepard
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 04:11:53 AM by Heaven Sent Blossom »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #114 on: March 19, 2012, 06:36:38 AM »
Hudson and Walters set themselves apart from the rest of the writing team to do the ending on their own, which is very different to how the rest of the game was written and the "peer review" system used. If "Final Hours" is to be believed then Hudson and Walters designed the ending to get people talking, in fact there are pictures of a sheet of paper with some ideas hastily scribbled down with the key thing being at the bottom of the page where "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" is written.
There is, of course, no way of knowing for sure that peer review would have saved the ending. However given the overall quality of the game before the nose dive, and the quality of the rest of the series in general, I think it's not the most out their assumption to say that it would have helped a lot.

Enough about that though, I feel more inclined to talk about the awesome things in Mass Effect 3. Specifically the multiplayer and how it is probably the best "horde mode" content I've played so far. After all, what other game lets you do this:

Let's Krogan: Never be better than Commander Shepard
I always tell people your writing is never as good or as bad as you think it is until someone else reads it. They definitely could have benefited from some of the other staff's reading of it. That's just rule of thumb as far as I'm concerned.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #115 on: March 19, 2012, 09:56:16 AM »
Hudson and Walters set themselves apart from the rest of the writing team to do the ending on their own, which is very different to how the rest of the game was written and the "peer review" system used. If "Final Hours" is to be believed then Hudson and Walters designed the ending to get people talking, in fact there are pictures of a sheet of paper with some ideas hastily scribbled down with the key thing being at the bottom of the page where "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" is written.
There is, of course, no way of knowing for sure that peer review would have saved the ending. However given the overall quality of the game before the nose dive, and the quality of the rest of the series in general, I think it's not the most out their assumption to say that it would have helped a lot.

Enough about that though, I feel more inclined to talk about the awesome things in Mass Effect 3. Specifically the multiplayer and how it is probably the best "horde mode" content I've played so far. After all, what other game lets you do this:

Let's Krogan: Never be better than Commander Shepard

Well that definitely explains the complete disconnect between the endings and the rest of the story.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #116 on: March 19, 2012, 04:15:50 PM »
Here's your silver lining... brought by the darkest cloud I've ever known.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5496-The-Positive-Side-of-Mass-Effect-3s-Ending-Drama

Offline Hemingway

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #117 on: March 19, 2012, 05:25:50 PM »
Here's your silver lining... brought by the darkest cloud I've ever known.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5496-The-Positive-Side-of-Mass-Effect-3s-Ending-Drama

He does sort of miss the point, though. I mean, I'm sure any ending would've gotten some complaints, but the reason ME3's ending has caused such a controversy isn't because the fans are impossible to please. It's because ME3's ending is - dare I say it? - objectively bad. To the extent that any fiction can be objectively bad, ME3's ending is it. It's got more holes than plot, it raises more questions than it answers, and ends a brilliant trilogy with a deus ex machina.

Also, the "Retake Mass Effect" name is quite obviously inspired by the "Take Back Earth" tagline of ME3. Research. It's kinda important.

Edit: If there is to be a silver lining to this - and I'm not certain there will - it will be that BioWare and other developers start taking their fans more seriously, and think twice before discarding a good ending for their acid trip-induced hallucination of a shell of an ending.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 05:26:57 PM by Hemingway »

Offline Xanatos

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #118 on: March 19, 2012, 10:58:15 PM »
He also failed to point out that Mass Effect was all about how Shepards choices effected the galaxy. Neither of the three endings were based in any way in how the player effected his world. Shepard could have destroyed the galaxy for the Reapers and those endings would not have reflected that.

What I see as the bigger problem, though, is that the writers stole the players choices/consequences from them and supplanted inferior, contrived, and cliche options. I can understand a philosophical outlook; however, Mass Effect was never philosophical. It has from day one been based in just about a black and white viewpoint, with a little neutral for those who didn't want all the cool paragon/renegade options. To end the game in a philosophical way totally ruins the feel of the game and defeats the point of such black and white decision making.

It has from day one been about beating the Reapers. Not compromising. Not playing nice. Not joining them. It has been about kicking freaking Reaper ass. Even the goody Paragon is all about kicking Reaper ass. Bioware dropped the ball. I'm not going to bash them. The facts are obvious enough to speak for themselves.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #119 on: March 20, 2012, 02:13:42 AM »
Here's your silver lining... brought by the darkest cloud I've ever known.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5496-The-Positive-Side-of-Mass-Effect-3s-Ending-Drama
That guy is an idiot.  He's seriously stretching, and I think deliberately missing the point.

Like Lost, (now I've not seen any of that series, nor have I played ME3 yet) I get the impression that the ending was just shoved in there with no sense whatsoever to the rest of the narrative until that point. And I'm not talking about the previous games.  The ending was just shoved into the ending block with no sense of continuity.  Like Lost there was no build up, no hinting at what was really or going to happen.

That's a horrible way to write a story.  You need links, hints.  If you're going to have a murder, you need clues and a 'smoking gun'.  That's how people want it.  Throwing a loop never ends well, and just looks sloppy.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #120 on: March 20, 2012, 09:12:39 PM »
I just had another thought, regarding the Synthesis ending.

It's said by the Catalyst ( who we now call Casper - after the ghost! ) that synthesis is the "final evolution" of life. Which sounds nice, if you don't think too much about it. Unfortunately, nice though it may sound, it's also impossible. It's just not how evolution works. In order to be the final evolution of anything, you'd have to be perfectly adapted to every situation, which quickly leads to a lot of contradictions. If they didn't mean evolution, they shouldn't have used that word.

If Bioware's goal was to spark speculation, they've done it. Just not in a good way.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #121 on: March 21, 2012, 09:07:06 AM »
I just had another thought, regarding the Synthesis ending.

It's said by the Catalyst ( who we now call Casper - after the ghost! ) that synthesis is the "final evolution" of life. Which sounds nice, if you don't think too much about it. Unfortunately, nice though it may sound, it's also impossible. It's just not how evolution works. In order to be the final evolution of anything, you'd have to be perfectly adapted to every situation, which quickly leads to a lot of contradictions. If they didn't mean evolution, they shouldn't have used that word. o

If Bioware's goal was to spark speculation, they've done it. Just not in a good way.
That's not so much a contradiction as it is semantic limitation. Synthesis would be the final stage of evolution in that there would probably be no other great evolution of the synthesis people. They won't evolve wings or become bird snythetic people or something. There would be adaptation obviously, and if evolution is the gaining of adaptations over a long period of time it's easy to see that there would be no next evolutionary breakthrough. However, evolution is just quicker to say.

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #122 on: March 21, 2012, 01:17:28 PM »
Once you can re-program yourself infinitely and put yourself in any kind of body you want, what other adaptation could you need?

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Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #123 on: March 21, 2012, 01:56:06 PM »
Once you can re-program yourself infinitely and put yourself in any kind of body you want, what other adaptation could you need?
That's a good point. If it turns out like that. They keep it ambiguous.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Mass Effect 3 Release!!!
« Reply #124 on: March 21, 2012, 04:23:09 PM »
There would be adaptation obviously, and if evolution is the gaining of adaptations over a long period of time it's easy to see that there would be no next evolutionary breakthrough.

Well, that's exactly what evolution means. If they're adapting, they're evolving. The only way they would avoid that is if there are no longer any mutations going on, which seems to me like a thoroughly undesireable situation. I mean, I don't know what the long-term implications of that are, but I can imagine it would become problematic after a while, what with inbreeding and such taking place at an increasing scale, children being basically clones of their parents. What about resistance to disease? Or will diseases stop evolving, too? Or maybe we're simply immune to them? What about death? Are we now immortal? If not, that kinda sucks - we're stuck with our short lifespans!

Now, even if that's not the case, why would you want to stop adapting? By its very nature, evolution does not have an end point. There can't be a "final evolution". It's just a nonsensical concept.

And even if, at that point, we're all posthuman half-synthetics, capable of rewriting our genetic code at will and adapting to any situation, that doesn't sound like a final evolution at all - quite the contrary! Evolving the ability to evolve at will would just create a new infinity of possibilities.

Edit: As a side note, isn't that a rather sinister idea too? Wouldn't that be eugenics taken to its absolute extreme?

EDIT 2: Well, I'll be....
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 04:28:40 PM by Hemingway »