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Author Topic: Not that it'll stop them, but......  (Read 2543 times)

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Offline Apple of Eris

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2008, 04:20:18 PM »
Now what I find kind of interesting about this is that everyone rants about Microsoft and how terrible they are etc etc. The company is doing things like developinga watered down version of windows for cheap computers in emerging markets (because otherwise those people will grow up using Linux and hurt MS' marketshare), self interest sure, but still, it's a good thing. The company is pretty ruthless in fighting for share, but then every company is. Microsoft just happens to be king of the hill at the moment so they're under the spotlight. Other companies do the same sorts of things as Microsoft and get a sort of a free pass.

Google for instance dominates the web search market, and Microsoft in an attempt to revive its online fortunes tried to buy Yahoo. What did google do? File legal charges against such a purchase. Google and MS both swallow up small emerging competitors while jockeying for online dominance. Who gets heard about more? MS. Google actively aids the chinese government in turning in people who post anti-government tracts, or even search for that kind of info. "Do no evil"* my ass.

People complain about MS not being open source. How much of Apple's stuff is open? Hell even their hardware was (and probably is) proprietary! One reason for the dominance of PCs and MS is because so much of their stuff was swappable. You could go out and build your own fairly easily. And back in the 80s when the PC market was developing and you had the huge PC vs Mac debate, that was a huge point in the PC favor. That probably more than anything led to the dominance of the PC. And microsoft developing windows certainly ensured their dominance of the PC market.

Oh and before anyone else point out that Windows is a knockoff of Mac's old OS, mac's OS was a knockoff of a GUI developed by Xerox.

The other thing I find interesting is that, I have a lot of friends who use Mac (artists and so forth mostly) and they complain to high heaven about their OS. Esp when they had to upgrade to OS X. I'd hear stuff like "10.2 was totally fucked and you had to take everything off and do a clean install to get to 10.3" and crap like that. I would just sit there and go, "I uh... I use windows. Never had any real problems."

Now to my other point is anyone read this far (and good on you if you did), Monopolies stifle innovation and development. They aren't there to make things better and amazing, that's what competition is for. If you own a monopoly (say... in Oil) why would you want to innovate? YOU CONTROL THE MARKET! If you innovate, if you CHANGE the market, you run the risk of upsetting the status quo. You RISK YOUR DOMINANCE. No company, wants that. Yeah certain monopolistic companies make innovate, but they do so slowly, the real innovations come from small companies. Those companies have an idea, start to develop it, and are then bought out. Like YouTube, Myspace, Facebook, etc. All those comapnies are purches by someone bigger after coming up with a great idea.

Think about this for a moment, and this holds true for most americans here, not sure about europe or elsewhere. Most of us who use cable have ONE choice for cable company. Their prices go up, and up, and UP. Constantly. There's no real competition. They have virtual monopolies. Then, suddenly, you had satellite (most people can't afford the dish though), then you had direct tv, a competitor, finally! And cable prices leveled off a bit after deregulation. Now you have other high-speed cable options and companies, forced to compete are also forced to give you more for less. Why? Otherwise they get nothing as consumers move to better deals.
 
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* Do No Evil was part of the Google mission statement.

Offline Sherona

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2008, 04:47:45 PM »
as this was a rant about Microsoft I did not mention google or the other HUGE competitors...but Google really isn't a monopoly either, its jsut the biggest. There are Yahoo search engines, AskJeeves, Ask.com, there are several out there....and as far as I know Google does not produce and supply glitchy products *shrugs*

Like I said I am not a brainiac..

Offline ElviTopic starter

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2008, 06:35:53 AM »

Quote
Google for instance dominates the web search market, and Microsoft in an attempt to revive its online fortunes tried to buy Yahoo. What did google do? File legal charges against such a purchase. Google and MS both swallow up small emerging competitors while jockeying for online dominance. Who gets heard about more? MS. Google actively aids the chinese government in turning in people who post anti-government tracts, or even search for that kind of info. "Do no evil"* my ass.

Ah yes google, another story there...
However, there are huge differences.

If I don't want to use google, I don't use google. I wander off to one of the million other worldwide or UK search sites and use that instead.
If I don't want to use microsoft, then I can't use my computer, it's as simple as that.

Google updates it's site, I flick on and it's all there for me.
Microsoft updates it's stuff and you suddenly find that they won't support your package any longer, leaving you with the only option, but to spend a hell of a lot of money and buy a newer one.

The list goes on, basicly what I'm saying is that you can't compare them at all....

Quote
Think about this for a moment, and this holds true for most americans here, not sure about europe or elsewhere. Most of us who use cable have ONE choice for cable company. Their prices go up, and up, and UP. Constantly. There's no real competition. They have virtual monopolies. Then, suddenly, you had satellite (most people can't afford the dish though), then you had direct tv, a competitor, finally! And cable prices leveled off a bit after deregulation. Now you have other high-speed cable options and companies, forced to compete are also forced to give you more for less. Why? Otherwise they get nothing as consumers move to better deals.

Ermmm.....unless I am reading this incorrectly, then that's the whole thing I have against Microsoft.
They don't have that competition and won't allow that competition.
Which means that the consumer can't move else where and get the better deals.

Offline kongming

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2008, 12:00:45 AM »
Exactly, it's a good thing that changes and innovation occur when you don't have a monopoly. But... are you saying it's a bad thing, apple? Is it bad for competition to force people to actually research new technology?

Currently, we don't have ADSL 2 because the one company that has lines supporting it is being stubborn. The government has anti-monopoly laws that basically state "If you use those lines, then you're going to have to rent the lines out at a cheaper rate to other companies, so that they can offer competition. Because we're not letting you form a monopoly and give everyone the finger." So naturally, already being so powerful that no-one else is in a position to just put their own lines in, Telstra folded their arms and said "Fine, we won't switch it on then."

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2008, 09:38:18 AM »
Actually what you call a monopoly is just a natural occurance in a free market system, its economic survival of the fittest in a way. A company by its nature will seek to gain a certain level of dominance that will assure its profits and do what it can to maintain those profits.

In the case of Microsoft they play the game better than most they made the rest of the world so dependent on their technology that they can literally tell even the EU to go fuck themselves. Here is a scenario what if they cut off EU nations from Microsoft technology and started locking them out of the loop. No more security upgrades, no more software and left you to stew. They could its a private company.

You know without them the EU couldn't in the long term survive not talking with computers in the rest of the world. So they will eat your fine because its good business for them and unlike oil they control the entire supply of information technology for the vast majority of the world even China throught their clear command of the operating software.

Don't like it well those are the facts, you need them and you all know it so why your pissing them off is beyond me. Like I said if it served them and you make them lose too much money they may decide to stop their supply of technology to the EU and let you figure out how to compete with the rest of the world in the information age.

As for your example Google is not the only search engine there is Yahoo and even specialized ones same with internet auctions eBay rules the roost but there are other ones although more specialized that are nice. Just stop using Microsoft and use that Linux one but as it was pointed out earlier its not nearly as useful. And doesn't Apple have its own software I'm not sure but I think they also have a unique operating system so there you go. Two other options. Why not just buy an Apple computer and use that softeware if Microsoft is so offensive?


Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2008, 10:08:47 AM »
Ruby, your technological and economical ignorance is staggering. You truly live in your own imaginary world.

Offline kongming

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2008, 07:09:36 PM »
Why not use the other options? Because Apple couldn't make a good piece of software if their lives depended on it, and Linux requires you to be a programmer just to know what you're doing. Linux is superior, as long as you are patient and willing to customise it so that it does *exactly* what you want it to do. It will then function perfectly.

But few people have the skills and patience.

Apple, on the other hand, is a bit of a joke. Their software is *less* stable than Windows, and has more security holes, it's just that the users never complain about it (because a large number of them have a superiority complex - none here that I know of, but outside of here, every Mac user I've ever met) and no-one can be bothered making viruses for them, because not enough people use Macs for hackers to honestly care. Also, their products are barely compatible with each other, let alone anyone else's.

So for many, there isn't a real alternative. Microsoft has to be forced to play by the rules, otherwise everyone suffers by having to put up with anything they release and paying whatever price is asked.

Now in theory, they could tell the entire EU to fuck off. Then, either the EU pools its resources and actually does produce something superior, or they inform America "Microsoft - an American company - is posing a security threat to the entire EU. Please do something."
And I know this will make you sad as it contradicts your dream world, but America can't actually afford to say "We are the world, fuck you!" So they would force Microsoft to do something - possibly going as far as to actually list them as an organisation that aids terrorists (by going out of their way to endanger the security of the EU) and freezing/seizing their assets.

But really... I think this debate is becoming utterly pointless, for the reasons Celestial Goblin put forward.

Offline ElviTopic starter

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2008, 07:17:59 PM »
To be quite honest Kong, it is a pointless exercise in trying to debate anything with Ruby.
I have personally thanked Celestial for getting that post in before I had a chance to reply....

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2008, 12:19:15 PM »
Ignorant of technology no, rather sensible.

As for someone coming up with something better than fine, the free market will reward that, if they can make inroads. It has in several other industries the US led in such as Steel Production and Shipbuilding both now not a major forte anymore. Even the US military went to Airbus for a new refueling plane. I'm not a protectionist and would never support tariffs I am for the US government cutting costly regulations that hurt business and staying out of commerce as much as possible. Didn't the free market decide for Blue-Ray over High Definition in DVD players- it did? Same thing here just Microsoft really created the industry and so got in there first the time to have stopped them was decades ago. Where was the EU and EU nations back when they were rising and could have developed an alternative? Why blame Microsoft? I would blame your countries for not doing their jobs if they didn't serve your best interests frankly not them, you could have voted for a government that would have maybe acted when it mattered.

In this case the fact is Microsoft is the internet and computer industry, and nothing the EU can do will stop that all your doing is forcing them to raise prices to pay these costs. And you will have to eat them as will I. Short of banning them doing business in the EU and that is not going to happen, you will have to accept this. The entire global economic system is driven by their technology unless I'm missing that so I not unknowledgeable but maybe you are?

Maybe its my working class background I was raised to not look at things all rose-colored what is, is. You may not like Microsoft but since the are the modern economy even if another system that was better came along it would have to compete. Let me ask if you ran a corporation and by getting the Dynatech operating system as an example your company could not talk to another using Microsoft Vista would you switch? What if you couldn't talk to the governement to pay taxes? Or to a company doing background checks? You get the idea I think. It can be twice as good but still not be marketable even if billions were spent promoting it. If a company can then they should take over I'm sensible enough in my views to support that.

Offline Hunter

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2008, 01:47:19 PM »
To be quite honest Kong, it is a pointless exercise in trying to debate anything with Ruby.

About as pointless as trying to debate anything with you, in my experience.  Someone who's convinced that they're right isn't going to listen to a different viewpoint.

I'm not a programmer and I find Linux to be quite a comfortable fit.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 01:56:54 PM by Hunter »

Offline ElviTopic starter

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2008, 06:21:12 PM »
On the contrary Hunter, I am quite willing to be proved wrong.

Though I am not sure where the point about Linux comes in?
If, you are saying that if 'we' don't like microsoft, then change, it is often not that simple.

We have the Linux disc sat here, unfortunately we have found that the internet provider, that we have an 18 month contract with, does not support linux.
Many others also have that problem.

If that is not your point, then would you mind telling us why you made that statement?

 

Offline Hunter

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2008, 06:39:25 PM »
On the contrary Hunter, I am quite willing to be proved wrong.

If that is not your point, then would you mind telling us why you made that statement?

Because I've found you to be as opinionated and stubborn as Ruby.  I've also noticed that you tend to rip anyone (including myself) who doesn't share your viewpoint regardless of any "facts" that they present.  And that's all I'm going to say about it (because no one else will back me up).  And I guarantee that you'll jump down my throat for saying so (calling me a liar and such).


As far as Linux goes, the operating system that you use has no bearing on how you connect to the internet. I  can use the same computer with the same connection with different operating systems without any problems.  The protocol used to connect to the internet is supported by both Linux and Windows systems (point of fact, TCP/IP was ripped off by MS).

My internet provider "doesn't support Linux" either (nor Macs but that's another story).  All the operating system provides is an interface between you and the computer.  Granted, that's a very gross oversimplification.  I have zero problem getting online and doing things using a Linux box.

Offline ElviTopic starter

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2008, 06:44:01 PM »
*chooses to ignore Hunters trolling*

If you really want an arguement Hunter, please go elsewhere. I no longer rise to the bate.
Anything else you have posted after the attempt to goad me has been lost.

Offline Hunter

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2008, 06:44:59 PM »
Congratulations.  You've just proved my point.

Offline strangely made

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2008, 07:08:37 PM »
Well apart from the fact that our ISP is completely Windows based, the internet connection is windows, the email is windows, the router only recognises windows and the customer services can only advise on problems with the broadband service if you use windows.

I've also researched it completely and found that it is next to impossible to use Linux with our ISP, I've talked to other  Linux users and they can not use Linux to get onto the internet with our ISP, I've talked to engineers who work for our ISP and even though they use Linux there is no way that Linux will go through the exchange which is surprise surprise Windows based.

So no, we can not use Linux to get onto the internet.


Now as for Windows and Microsoft, basically I see Microsoft and Bill Gates as dealers, they released a program that while it wasn't great was better than the rest, they got people hooked, convinced every one to use their system so that it infected the world and now we can't (No matter how much we hate the damned thing) do with out it.

Until enough people stand up to Microsoft and say 'We've had enough' then they will continue to churn out program after program that will just make the world more reliant on them and I dread the next Windows program they release, it's bad enough that every move we make is captured by some means but for a company to actually release a OS that can spy on your personal computer, that is way beyond "1984".


Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2008, 10:51:54 AM »
Microsoft actively lobbies to make goverments use Windows formats as the only allowed formats to submit tax forms, also for bussineses.

That's as opposed to competition as possible.

Offline Hunter

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2008, 02:18:07 PM »
Microsoft actively lobbies to make goverments use Windows formats as the only allowed formats to submit tax forms, also for bussineses.

That's as opposed to competition as possible.

They also recently lost the bid to make MS format the standard for office documents.  Which I find quite funny.

Microsoft has a history of either ignoring or suppressing competition.   Or they claim to have invented something that's been around for a while (TCP/IP jumps to mind).

MS is doing a fairly good job of shooting themselves in the foot with Vista.  Expect a sharp growth in open source (Linux/Mac) once XP goes off the market.

Offline Sabby

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2008, 06:28:57 PM »
Vista... *gets out knife and stabs the air* hate Vista...

Offline Hunter

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2008, 08:48:18 PM »
Vista... *gets out knife and stabs the air* hate Vista...

Join the club.  And I have to support that pos.  M$ has already stated that Vista is here to stay.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Not that it'll stop them, but......
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2008, 03:39:18 PM »
There is a free market option for the EU to get into competition. In fact I would use it everytime something has to be developed military technology, space travel and the like. You put out a large some about maybe 50 Billion dollars for any company other than M$ that can develop an alternative operating system that is compatible with their software. With that amount up for grabs some company would likely do so and even if not the pure research might counter M$.

You can likely see something come up with enough to make another M$ if successful. And companies could try for it all over the world even China and India if your really serious about coming up with another competitor. And the country putting up the money could get special access to it for their expense.

You want a missle defense system for example just reward the first company that can make a fully functional and effective system 25 Billion dollars or so and see all those creative juices and innovations go to work. Its a far better and likely cheaper option than trusting a government to do the same project just look at the Shuttle Program for example its never gone near it projections and was far over budget. A private company might have gotten us there cheaper if free market forces were allowed to work for the last several decades.

The government would just offer the money not get otherwise involved or make choices and the companies would have to demonstrate a proven and cost effective goal to get it. Like for a space program launch a plane like craft that is full recoverable, have it enter orbit, deploy a satellite of so many tons and stay up for so long then land safely to Earth at an airport. They do that they get the money. Once could limit it to a US company or assure the US a good access to this technology but any company privately owned could win it anywhere in the world. Then let them go for it.