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Author Topic: Should there be a parenting license.  (Read 2646 times)

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Offline Trieste

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Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2012, 04:07:05 AM »
Erm...

The point of my post is over here ---------------> .

X <--------------------------------- You are here.

You can say it is an inalienable right all you would like, but I disagree with you strongly. That's okay, it may just be a fundamental disagreement. If your goal is to justify your stance, however, that has not been accomplished.

Using "people would fight tooth and nail" as a justification is not strong supporting evidence. There were people who fought against desegregation in this country, violently so. There are people who violently oppose the openly gay and transgender. Violent opposition alone does not a justification make.

Scientists are still unsure of precisely how to define life, or species, or several other basic scientific words that one would think would be easy to define. The ability to reproduce is still considered part of it, last I knew, but the use of that ability - especially to the detriment of the larger species - is not included. The further lack of classifying men with vasectomies as no-longer-alive also suggests that the ability to reproduce is not, in fact, fundamentally necessary to be alive.

And I believe I addressed that food is not the issue. In fact, I'm fairly certain I said very clearly that food is not the issue.

Offline adeleturner

Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2012, 01:25:13 PM »
You can say it is an inalienable right all you would like, but I disagree with you strongly. That's okay, it may just be a fundamental disagreement. If your goal is to justify your stance, however, that has not been accomplished.
It seems to not only be a fundamental disagreement, but even the issue of who is responsible for "justification" is a fundamental disagreement.

Either you believe that the State should be persumed to have authority to regulate certain personal decisions unless individuals provide justification for self-determination, or you believe that individuals have the authority to regulate their own personal decisions unless the State can provide justification for restricting it.

I'm personally big into the idea of self-ownership.  If the State or any other authority wants to regulate the actions of individuals, they are the ones who have to justify their actions.  I occasionally fool myself into believing that the alternative theory died during the Enlightenment.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2012, 01:33:02 PM »
Either you believe that the State should be persumed to have authority to regulate certain personal decisions unless individuals provide justification for self-determination, or you believe that individuals have the authority to regulate their own personal decisions unless the State can provide justification for restricting it.

Was addressed in an earlier post. :)

I would say I disagree with this. I would hesitate to give anyone power to say definitively who can have children, but not everyone should have children. It is not an inalienable right, and is in fact inadvisable given that we have a population that we can feed (if we would stop incinerating perfectly good crops to keep prices high) but which we may not be able to provide clean water and housing to in the forseeable future. Even if you want to insist that it's someone's right to pass their genes along - which is arguable - there is still an argument that past the first child, every additional one is excessive and environmentally decadent.

I personally don't feel that people who can't take care of their kids should have them, and I think that extremists of any kind should be sterilized. ::) I would never legislate that, however. Not in a million years.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2012, 02:11:57 PM »
It seems to not only be a fundamental disagreement, but even the issue of who is responsible for "justification" is a fundamental disagreement.

Either you believe that the State should be persumed to have authority to regulate certain personal decisions unless individuals provide justification for self-determination, or you believe that individuals have the authority to regulate their own personal decisions unless the State can provide justification for restricting it.

I'm personally big into the idea of self-ownership.  If the State or any other authority wants to regulate the actions of individuals, they are the ones who have to justify their actions.  I occasionally fool myself into believing that the alternative theory died during the Enlightenment.


Then does that extend to young people I for one saw a good reason for K-8 formal education looking back but when I hit High School age opted out and my parents and school didn't get it but I did point out - how the hell are they going to make me do the work if I don't care to? I did go to class, sat in back quietly reading or doing some other things I wanted to do, refused to take any tests or do homework and this was in 9th grade. In the end I was let free to educate myself. I find it ironic on the one hand people want rights for parents and the educators and then when it comes to the oppressed teenager its not okay to let them be free to choose.

Not that I would say not offer options I would lower the working age to 14 for full-time work, offer more options for self-education and do things along those lines but if the student wants to go to school for a class or something that is fine. Treat High School like college more if one went just to take a class in something or get a certification. But I've always been one to go against the grain and ask why to much or see potential for doing things in a new way.

The only issue with the license idea it takes the power from parents to the state, but I would ask by what right the state has as the government to control me once I'm older and out of eighth grade. The only reason that is the cut off is K-8 is where someone gets exposure to lots of things and learns the basics of being a citizen its the classic view that is general preparation.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 02:55:31 PM »
Wait...

Ruby you are saying that a 14 yr old child should be allowed to make decisions concerning his/her life instead of the parents? Do you HAVE children? There is NO way a 14 yr old child understands the world enough to make a decision that will better his/her life. The vast majority would make an asinine decision that would negatively affect them  for the rest of their life. I know at 14 I certainly did not have a clue (despite my thinking I knew it all) and neither of my children could have made a well informed decision that would BETTER them for the rest of their lives at 14. Hell my son just turned 18 and I still worry over the decisions he makes.

As for lowering the full time working age to 14 - uhh. No. A child needs to be allowed to be a child, to learn, to grow before being thrust into the world of an adult. At 14 they are not mentally, emotionally or even physically ready to be turned into adults.


Now then. OT: While it sickens me to see the things happening to children by people who obviously should have never had children, trying to police such a thing as reproduction would be impossible. Not too mention, I protest the government being in my uterus already - I sure as hell would not agree to something like this.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 03:15:58 PM »
Yes but if the mentors and parents are doing their jobs and being supportive most would seek out advice when needed, but I see High School as largely a waste of time as it is now.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2012, 03:26:18 PM »
Most?  Are you serious?

The place where they would 'seek out advice' in 90% of the circumstances would be their peer group and the Internet - both of which are incredibly well-known for their lack of accuracy.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2012, 04:46:58 PM »
+1 to Oniya's reply. I can certainly say for myself that when I needed advice, it was not my parents I turned to despite the fact that both of them constantly told me I could talk to them and come to them about anything. I also know for a fact that my kids talk to their friends about 99% of their issues and only come to me when they have nowhere else to turn or have already screwed up - and I have a very firm rule of talking to my children about everything on a damn near daily basis.

Not all children are the same, some actually do turn to their parents. But I can tell you true that by the time a child hits the age of 11 or so (younger in some, older in others) parents become 'the enemy'. Parents are embarrassing, parents are stupid, parents just want to ruin your life. And it isnt till they are in they are older that they realize their parents actually knew what they were talking about. I was 31 when I looked at my mom and told her the older I get the smarter she gets because it was then that it dawned on me that everything my mother had told me when I was a teenager was true.

You want 14 yrs old to be able to make adult decisions? You are going to end up with more cases of children having children and MORE cases where people start thinking the government should decide who has kids and who doesn't. This isn't the 1300's where schooling was obsolete and the only thing children had to learn was how to plow the field, herd the animals or whatever trade their parents did.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 04:52:05 PM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Offline Caelic

Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2012, 07:57:14 PM »
(clip)
You can say it is an inalienable right all you would like, but I disagree with you strongly. That's okay, it may just be a fundamental disagreement. If your goal is to justify your stance, however, that has not been accomplished.
(clip)

And I believe I addressed that food is not the issue. In fact, I'm fairly certain I said very clearly that food is not the issue.
 

Well, would anything at all constitute an inalienable right, in your view?  Keep in mind you are either supporting mandatory abortions without government approval with this stance, or mandatory removal of children from parents. 

Offline Oniya

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Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2012, 08:03:47 PM »
I believe that was covered by Messrs. Jefferson, Hobbes, Locke, Paine, et al.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2012, 08:05:44 PM »
I'm supporting neither; just because I don't think something should be done doesn't mean that I think the government should legislate it. *shrug* And this thread isn't about what I think are inalienable rights. It's about whether people have a right to give birth as they choose. I do not believe that is an inalienable right, for the reasons stated above.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2012, 03:21:57 PM »
Sorry, but the U.S. government already has fubared family law in this country beyond recognition.  For example, divorced fathers get such a raw deal I'm surprised they haven't joined the Occupy movements en masse with Molotov cocktails in one hand and Kalishnikovs in the other.  Yes, it's that bad.  I knew a guy a couple jobs back who had his driver's license taken away because he couldn't pay $600 a month in child support to his crackhead of an ex-wife.  He's ex-Special Forces too, so if he ever goes off the deep end and decides to settle accounts with the State, I'll just grab a bag of popcorn because it'll be quite the scene.

Trust me when I say that making parents get a license from the U.S. government or state government would turn into a first-class clusterfuck, and that right quickly.  I'm not saying that to be a jerk or to impugn the motives of the OP and Co. who have the idea--as with Marxism, decent-minded people can come up with some pretty serviceable arguments why licensing parents is a good idea.  We've all seen enough jag-offs mis-raising their kids to think "there oughta be a law" at one point or another--likely several points.  It's an understandable sentiment, especially when you've been jabbed in the knee for the third time by some spoiled brat in the supermarket check-out lane whose parent is obliviously jabbering away on a cell phone.

However, good sentiments often make bad policy, and this is one such time.

For starters, this idea would require a huge, new, invasive bureaucracy to enforce.  Think the DMV is bad?  The Bureau of Reproductive Licensing would be an order of magnitude worse.  Funding?  We're already living in an era when over 1 out of every 4 dollars the federal government spends is borrowed, and state governments are slashing everything from highway maintenance to schools to welfare to balance their budgets.  Where would the money for this come from?  Charging fees for a parenting license?  That would open up an epic can of worms.  Believe me when I say you don't want to go there. 

Second, we live in a country where a significant percentage of the population actually believes government-assisted health care is some communist conspiracy to destroy America.  I can guarantee you a parental licensing scheme would bring the tinfoil-hatters, militias, white racial chauvinists and fundies out in force.  To quote a movie title, "There Will Be Blood."  A couple posts back, someone said that this is irrelevant to whether or not parental licenses are a good idea, but I disagree emphatically.  When a policy would be so hated by such a significant percentage of the population that we would see regular, ongoing incidents of social violence from arson to assassinations to truck bombs from sea to shining sea, that has to be involved in the decision-making calculus for the Powers That Be.  That reality cannot be ignored.  Telling naysayers "let them eat cake" doesn't turn out very well.  We're seeing this right now in Greece, where bankers and government planners are in ivory towers doing what looks great on paper while hungry mobs gather and their country teeters on the edge of collapse.

Third, we would see corruption on a scale unheard of since Prohibition and Tammany Hall, if not longer.  People would beg, bribe, and fake their way around this.  I'd be shocked if a cottage industry worth billions, even tens of billions, didn't arise in a few short years, catering to would-be parents who wanted to expunge or remove whatever it was in their records preventing them from getting a license.  The rich would buy their way past this.  As for the rest...

Fourth, quite a few people would simply drop off the grid entirely to get around this.  We'd see poor kids (because, after all, it would be the poor who would bear the brunt of this, I don't care what anyone says, that's how it would turn out in the real world), raised in secret in the backwoods and wilderness across the land.  Hundreds of thousands of kids with no access to health care, education, or other social services.  Look at the experience of undocumented aliens in America today for an idea...only more would be in this new underclass of "undesirables."

This is definitely not a road I want to see America travel down.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Should there be a parenting license.
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2012, 03:46:25 PM »
Personally, given the amount of outright fucked up kids out there, I honestly think psychological testing to be a parent is nearly mandatory nowadays.

HOWEVER, the most we should do to prospective parents is to tell them honestly that A) Parenting is not going to be easy.  B) it's not always going to be fun.  And C) assuming they do go with the psych testing, and they fail, we should just tell them, "Hey, if you want to have kids, that's fine, but there's a good chance they'll be class A screwjobs."

Because, really, every kid is going to be different, not every parenting situation can be covered/explained/expected, but a few things do crop up time and again.

To be a good parent you must have a sense of humour, mental endurance, a willingness to compromise and, most importantly, a willingness to communicate.  That's both time to sit down and listen, as well as to explain to your little people.  It's not always going to be fun, but if you can tough it out, it can be among the most rewarding experiences of your life.  Or so my parents say, and you know what?  I think they may be on to something.