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Author Topic: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions  (Read 56506 times)

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Offline Moraline

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #725 on: April 27, 2013, 02:22:14 PM »
What keeps a group game going?

Dedication? Communication? A group of people that have shown they never flake, ditch or procrastinate on their posts?
Lots of factors but mostly it boils down to players and leadership.
An active leader is crucial to continued enthusiasm and general direction.  The moment a leader backs off the players feel or perceive a lack of enthusiasm.

Players that are eager and willing to go with the flow are crucial to continued success. If the players can't roll with changes and bumps in the road then they will flake out or drop off entirely and cause hiccups.

A lot of it is perception by both parties I think.

Quote
      Does everyone really need to have the same sense of style, flash and writing competency?
I don't think writing style has much to do with it. The same narrative perspective helps a great deal though (1rst or 3rd person).

Competency or at least tolerance for differing levels of competencies helps.  If you have one person that's a grammar Nazi and someone that makes spelling/grammar errors then you're going to get a conflict. The reverse holds true as well. Basically it boils down to tolerance levels I think.

Quote
      Is it about raw enthusiasm over the idea?
Idea is important but they are a dime a dozen. Enthusiasm is more valuable in my opinion.

Quote
      Is it about having a social exchange beyond the game?
I think that's player specific. Some people neither have time nor an inclination to social exchanges beyond the RP.
I have to say that I like the social exchange beyond the game as long as everyone keeps it positive and friendly. I quickly lose interest in a game when outside of it there is a lot of negativity and I personally find myself susceptible to falling into the negative vibe when I see others doing it.

Quote
      Is it about having the right, high class resources and tools and format?
I think for forum RP the tools and formatting are less important as the ensuring that all the information and writing is presented in an easy manner to digest. 

So if everything is presented in some giant block of text it's going to be more daunting to digest for many. A little formatting makes things more palatable.

The tools become more important the more system built a game is.

Those are just some of my opinions on the subject.

Offline LunarSage

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #726 on: April 27, 2013, 02:28:38 PM »

      What keeps a group game going?

      Dedication? Communication? A group of people that have shown they never flake, ditch or procrastinate on their posts?

      Does everyone really need to have the same sense of style, flash and writing competency?

      Is it about raw enthusiasm over the idea?

      Is it about having a social exchange beyond the game?

      Is it about having the right, high class resources and tools and format?

      Yeah, it's wonky but I'm lookin fer thoughts.  Gimme gimme gimme dem thoughts.

Communication is absolutely critical.  As is patience.  I've seen games die because one player just dropped off of the face of the E with absolutely no word of what was going on... but if they communicate with the GMs and their fellow players that they may be gone for a bit, the game can work around it.  A group game's number one enemy is stagnation, which leads to disinterest.

That said, GMs have to be willing to make a solid effort to keep players interested.  Sometimes this means making NPCs for bored players' characters to interact with.

General question to look for some insight.

What sorts of things do you guys see that works for Super Power progression or character progression in a free-form game?

Any tips for running super hero games? (I'm considering free-form with fast pacing)

I'm considering turning my World Building thread Rock City 2015 (Mutant Super Heroes in the Future)(click to view) into a group RP game.
See here for World Building discussion threadRock City 2015 (Open - Discussion, comment, question, contribute?)

For free form superhero games, the key is to make power level less important in the RP.  This goes for OCs in super games as well as playing canons.  Hawkeye and Thor are in a group game together?  It's best to assume that on some level the two characters are operating on an even playing field.  That said, people can and will come up with ridiculously overpowered concepts.  The GMs' job is to politely say "hey dude, can you tone that back a bit" without putting a person on the defensive.

Super Hero games can be hella fun to run and to play in (you can do both!  ;D) and the number one bit of advice I can give you is this:

Make sure every single character has a chance to feel like a badass.  Everyone wants to do cool stuff and in a superhero game, that becomes very possible.  Let the PCs look awesome, even if they're being defeated.  Make it clear in those situations that being defeated doesn't mean their character is weak (this seems like more of a problem with guy players than female players on average).

All in all, the story is about the adventures of the amazing/uncanny/spectacular PCs.  Make them feel it.

Offline Moraline

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #727 on: April 27, 2013, 02:36:57 PM »
....
For free form superhero games, the key is to make power level less important in the RP.  This goes for OCs in super games as well as playing canons.  Hawkeye and Thor are in a group game together?  It's best to assume that on some level the two characters are operating on an even playing field.  That said, people can and will come up with ridiculously overpowered concepts.  The GMs' job is to politely say "hey dude, can you tone that back a bit" without putting a person on the defensive.

Super Hero games can be hella fun to run and to play in (you can do both!  ;D) and the number one bit of advice I can give you is this:

Make sure every single character has a chance to feel like a badass.  Everyone wants to do cool stuff and in a superhero game, that becomes very possible.  Let the PCs look awesome, even if they're being defeated.  Make it clear in those situations that being defeated doesn't mean their character is weak (this seems like more of a problem with guy players than female players on average).

All in all, the story is about the adventures of the amazing/uncanny/spectacular PCs.  Make them feel it.
I was hoping you'd post. I know you've run one or two super hero games here before.

What I really want to do is to start the heroes with very low power levels because it's just the dawn of the super hero age in Rock City 2015. Then I want to build them up gradually.

I'm looking for some ideas about how to go about doing that. Have you ever done anything like that before? (What worked, what didn't, and what sort of hurdles did you run into?)

Offline LunarSage

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #728 on: April 27, 2013, 02:54:56 PM »
I was hoping you'd post. I know you've run one or two super hero games here before.

Heh what can I say?  It's my favorite genre of all time.  ;D

Quote
What I really want to do is to start the heroes with very low power levels because it's just the dawn of the super hero age in Rock City 2015. Then I want to build them up gradually.

I'm looking for some ideas about how to go about doing that. Have you ever done anything like that before? (What worked, what didn't, and what sort of hurdles did you run into?)

Ok, the first thing I would ask you is whether you want the game to be freeform (little to no stats) or semi-freeform (light stats but no dice).  In a true freeform game, power level means very little aside from a cinematic standpoint.  My Shadowrun game was semi-freeform.  We had stats and karma (xp) and freeformed the fights based on those stats.  My Classic X-men game is freeform.  The only stats per say are Fighting skill (scale of 1 to 6) and physical strength (lift 50 pounds to lift 100+ tons), but again, they're just there to aid to RP. 

I would suggest that if it's to be freeform, you don't sweat the numbers and just RP it out as more "street level", with encounters more along the lines of thugs and bank robbers than actual super villains, at least at first.  Let the players through their characters feel the rush of being so much better than the mooks they're fighting, while still giving the illusion of some risk.  Then, once they feel truly super, drop the first villain or two on them.  Remember as well, villains are often more powerful than a single or even a couple heroes.  There's a reason why supervillains tend to fight superhero teams.  The game is a group game, which means it'd be a team book rather than a solo 'Spider-Man-esque' feel.

If it's going to be semi freeform, have a definite system in mind to resolve conflicts that won't chase away players who prefer non system games.  Above all, avoid allowing characters to overlap their specialties too much.  It sucks being the super smart guy who can design inventions when the powered armor guy who's even smarter and can do a slew of other stuff comes in next.  Players can easily feel alienated by such things in my experience.  They want to be good at something that gives the others a reason to want them on the team. 

That's all I can think of right off the bat.  I'm happy to help however I can, Moraline.  :-)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 04:34:16 PM by LunarSage »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #729 on: April 27, 2013, 05:42:57 PM »
General question to look for some insight.

What sorts of things do you guys see that works for Super Power progression or character progression in a free-form game?

Any tips for running super hero games? (I'm considering free-form with fast pacing)

I'm considering turning my World Building thread Rock City 2015 (Mutant Super Heroes in the Future)(click to view) into a group RP game.
See here for World Building discussion threadRock City 2015 (Open - Discussion, comment, question, contribute?)

For Superheroes Vs. Villains, we went effectively freeform - characters' abilities and traits are firmly defined, but actual conflict is all freeform negotiation - this was an intended aspect of the game premise, since PCs were on both sides of the law and trusted to more or less run their own plots and story interactions while the GMs focused on approving characters and managing the wider setting. Rather than having characters progress or improve, which could lead to power creep in a freeform game (i.e, endless confusion), we settled on characters being submitted/created at their 'peak power level', even if the player's personal story arc would have them starting their hero career at a lower level and building into it.

Pacing's something we are still wrestling with, we've tried a few different systems with varying levels of ineffectiveness.

For general Superhero game advice...two things I'd consider very important to work out early on - power level, and mood. The power level of the players isn't so important as having them all on the same relative power band - it's hard to write a story where Superman and Green Lantern are teamed up with Daredevil or Matter Eater Lad.

Mood is another thing - is your superhero world gritty, idealistic, 90s GRAGLEGRIMDARK, Silver Age goofy...there's almost as many flavors of superhero settings as there are superheroes. Since you've got a setting in place, you probably have this question answered already, but it'll be important to make it very clear to the players. Otherwise you get a Justice League of Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Wonderwoman, and Darkslash Bloodbutcher Grimshadow.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 05:44:31 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Moraline

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #730 on: April 27, 2013, 06:05:30 PM »
I'm not really sure how power creep would be an issue? It's not like any of the content would be replayed.

I was thinking that starting with a weak hero that grows strong would help players feel attached and hopefully enjoy that feeling that they've "come a long way."

Ex Hero:
- starting telekinetic can lift a 10 lbs that that they can chuck at 50mph
- intermediate telekinetic can lift 100 lbs that they can chuck at 200 mph, they can levitate slowly up off the ground a dozen feet.
- advanced telekinetic can lift a 1000 lbs and chuck it at 300 mps, they can also fly at up to 100 mph

So by the time they become advanced they feel like they are a real super hero.

Online Thufir Hawat

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #731 on: April 27, 2013, 06:28:46 PM »
I'm not really sure how power creep would be an issue? It's not like any of the content would be replayed.
Supers is far from being a genre I like, but I'm almost sure that's what LS and TG mean by "give the players a chance to feel badass". That also includes not having another protagonist that's better than you at your chosen speciality, unless he's paying for depth with lack of breadth of ability.
Actually, we have a name for those that are overshadowed in their powers by other members of their team. The name, however, isn't "PCs", it's "sidekicks". Some people can have fun playing the useful sidekick. Much less people would have fun playing the useless sidekick. But unless they explicitly say otherwise, it's safe to assume people that are interested in a superhero game want to play a "protagonist", not a sidekick.

Quote
I was thinking that starting with a weak hero that grows strong would help players feel attached and hopefully enjoy that feeling that they've "come a long way."

Ex Hero:
- starting telekinetic can lift a 10 lbs that that they can chuck at 50mph
- intermediate telekinetic can lift 100 lbs that they can chuck at 200 mph, they can levitate slowly up off the ground a dozen feet.
- advanced telekinetic can lift a 1000 lbs and chuck it at 300 mps, they can also fly at up to 100 mph

So by the time they become advanced they feel like they are a real super hero.
Emphasis mine, so I could ask you a question that applies for both system and freeform games.
Why not let people start at the peak of their abilities? They can come a long way without it contributing to their combat efficiency. Getting new allies, enemies and feats people are talking about is a much more reliable measure IME.

And now, on to why I actually decided to post.

      What keeps a group game going?

Momentum. I'm serious, and not snarky. It's momentum. Lose it and you're likely to fail.

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      Dedication? Communication? A group of people that have shown they never flake, ditch or procrastinate on their posts?
It's the group, IME. You need people as dedicated as to match your level of dedication, and not so dedicated they'd feel like you're not doing enough.
Communication is good for avoiding OOC drama, and for being on good OOC terms. It also helps you be on the same page about IC events. That's about it, though. The rest is about the group.

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      Does everyone really need to have the same sense of style, flash and writing competency?
Not the same, but they need to at least be compatible.

Quote
      Is it about raw enthusiasm over the idea?
That's important, but enthusiasm wanes. I'd much rather have someone who has no emotional enthusiasm but says "your idea looks good enough to dedicate a part of my free time to it", and then proceeds to do so.

Quote
      Is it about having a social exchange beyond the game?
Is it necessary in order to have the group going? If yes, than yes it is.

Quote
      Is it about having the right, high class resources and tools and format?
I'm not even sure what "right, high-class resources" means about a game.
But then, all tools are the same. You can pass without them much of the time, but they make your time easier. And there would be some people that refuse to use the tools they consider "wrong" for that goal.

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      Yeah, it's wonky but I'm lookin fer thoughts.  Gimme gimme gimme dem thoughts.
Here you go ;D!

Online AndyZ

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #732 on: April 27, 2013, 06:34:29 PM »
This is only peripherally pertinent to the conversation, but if someone ever starts up a Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game, please let me know.  I've been aching for another chance to try that again.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #733 on: April 27, 2013, 07:59:02 PM »
Somewhat OT, but I heard the license for that went poof the other day there (assuming you're talking about the current Marvel game that is).

Online AndyZ

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #734 on: April 27, 2013, 08:02:59 PM »
The one with this cover

So what does it mean that the license went poof?  Are they going to stop making it?

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #735 on: April 27, 2013, 08:34:11 PM »
The Margaret Weis Productions one that's been running for the last few years, uses the Cortex system like in Smallville RPG. I don't know if they're going to have to stop selling it, but there defintely won't be any more books.

Online AndyZ

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #736 on: April 27, 2013, 08:42:32 PM »
That is severely unfortunate.  What happened?

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #737 on: April 27, 2013, 08:46:40 PM »
Dunno exactly. I just heard the license had gotten pulled a few days ago.

Offline Roxy Rocket

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #738 on: April 27, 2013, 11:51:03 PM »

      Thanks for them thar replies everybody!

      *waves*

Online Thufir Hawat

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #739 on: April 28, 2013, 04:54:26 PM »
That is severely unfortunate.  What happened?
There is lots of speculation on the reasons. Frankly, it seems that nobody that there is nobody that is a) allowed to speak, b) doesn't has a vested interest in some version of the events and c) knows anything for sure. Most people seem to assume Marvel has pulled the license for their own reasons, but I'm not following it closely. This means I might have missed some revelations :P.

The way I see it is that what this means for MHR games is having to wait a bit for the Cortex+ Hacker Guide. This one would contain the ways to hack the system behind MHR, Leverage and Smallville for different purposes, including for running Marvel games. In effect, the whole MHR game would most likely be contained within, and then more, so you would simply need to choose the options it's using now, and then run it with the Cortex+ Hacker Guide and your own knowledge of the setting ;D.

      Thanks for them thar replies everybody!

      *waves*
You're welcome.
And if you choose to share your conclusions, we'd all try to persuade you that our version is right like to hear it >:)!

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #740 on: April 28, 2013, 07:58:34 PM »
I think you could do a fair Supers game with the Smallville rules alone. Not sure if it would cover every Marvel ability, but I'd say it should do most of them.

Offline Devil's Advocate

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #741 on: April 28, 2013, 08:09:16 PM »
I prefer running my teen hero game that's freeformish....

Offline Moraline

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #742 on: April 29, 2013, 10:53:24 AM »
Question for all the GM'y types:

What are the benefits and drawbacks to allowing players to use more then one character?
(Does that dynamic change if the game is faster paced? = Higher Post Count per day required.)

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #743 on: April 29, 2013, 11:34:54 AM »
Benefits = allowing to pursue multiple plotlines at once, not getting frozen and unable to post if a one-on-one scene gets slow or stuck due to partner inactivity.
Drawbacks = more player responsibility to 1) keep character knowledge harshly separated, 2) keep characters from being forced into situations where they have to interact with each other instead of other player's PCs.

These benefits and weaknesses diminish proportionately to how much plot and structure the game has - a game where the Avengers run around fighting the bad guy of the week doesn't care if Thor and Captain America have the same player, because they're always going to be in the same general place and regularly hanging out/sharing info anyways.

Likewise, they'll grow proportionately if you require multiple posts/day, or just a faster schedule in general. Keeping multiple PCs updated and current to the situation can overwhelm some people, or just make it more complex even if they can handle it, and exacerbates the potential of accidentally causing cross-character contamination or self-referential interactions.


Offline Chrystal

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #744 on: April 29, 2013, 04:31:39 PM »
Question for all the GM'y types:

What are the benefits and drawbacks to allowing players to use more then one character?
(Does that dynamic change if the game is faster paced? = Higher Post Count per day required.)

What glyph said, but there are a few other advantages and disadvantages too.

Advantages: If you insist on one post per character it gets you closer to the magic 1,000 posts and the GM badge that much faster. It allows players to explore different aspects of the game - for example if you are running a BDSM game, it allows players (like me) who are switch to have a Dominant and a Submissive character, or if you are running a PvP good versus evil campaign it allows a player to play on both teams at once. If yiu have an odd number of players, and you want them to pair up, allowing two characters per player can sometimes fix the problem.

Disadvantages: In a "smut" based game, the possible pairings are actually reduced by each player who has more than one character, unless that player doesn't mind playing by him or herself. The other BIG disadvantage is that if a player with multiple characters, each involved in loads of different areas of the game, drops out, it can kill your game totally, where a single player with one character dropping out is less likely too.

Offline Moraline

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #745 on: April 29, 2013, 08:11:12 PM »
What glyph said, but there are a few other advantages and disadvantages too.

Advantages: If you insist on one post per character it gets you closer to the magic 1,000 posts and the GM badge that much faster. It allows players to explore different aspects of the game - for example if you are running a BDSM game, it allows players (like me) who are switch to have a Dominant and a Submissive character, or if you are running a PvP good versus evil campaign it allows a player to play on both teams at once. If yiu have an odd number of players, and you want them to pair up, allowing two characters per player can sometimes fix the problem.

Disadvantages: In a "smut" based game, the possible pairings are actually reduced by each player who has more than one character, unless that player doesn't mind playing by him or herself. The other BIG disadvantage is that if a player with multiple characters, each involved in loads of different areas of the game, drops out, it can kill your game totally, where a single player with one character dropping out is less likely too.
Very thoughtful input and very good points. These have been very insightful.

Online AndyZ

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #746 on: April 30, 2013, 12:51:35 AM »
If you do allow multiple characters, I strongly invest that the person posting is at least X times as fast as their multiple characters.  For example, if someone is twice as fast as everyone else, they might be able to pull off two characters.  If the person is slower than everyone else, letting them have multiple characters will only mean that each character will be even slower yet.

Offline Roxy Rocket

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #747 on: May 02, 2013, 07:34:30 PM »
And if you choose to share your conclusions, we'd all try to persuade you that our version is right like to hear it >:)!

      No conclusions. I'm just thinking about group games and how they work out and how to do em properly.

      
Question for all the GM'y types:

What are the benefits and drawbacks to allowing players to use more then one character?
(Does that dynamic change if the game is faster paced? = Higher Post Count per day required.)

      Big difference between standard writing for multiple characters and the tabletop style writing of characters, isn't there?

      Some people are going to be able to churn out and manage character sheets really easily. Others are going to be able to "write" the characters easily and without delays even if they've gotta animate them in different ways.

      I guess everyone gets used to doing both with practice?

Offline Moraline

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #748 on: May 03, 2013, 11:11:41 AM »
      Big difference between standard writing for multiple characters and the tabletop style writing of characters, isn't there?

      Some people are going to be able to churn out and manage character sheets really easily. Others are going to be able to "write" the characters easily and without delays even if they've gotta animate them in different ways.

      I guess everyone gets used to doing both with practice?
That would all depend heavily on the games and the systems(if any) being used. Which is why I asked in general. Just sorta looking for some feedback.  However, mostly the question pertains to Forum Roleplay here on Elliquiy not so much on tabletop gaming.

Mostly here on E even if a system is being used there's a lot more writing then system playing going on. I have found some of what the others mentioned about players losing track of characters (posting for one but not the other.) I've also seen where it's been a benefit to have multiple characters because if a player has to wait long periods for someone to post it gives them something to do (keeps them engaged in the game.)



Just speaking generally now to anyone reading...

In my past when I've played on other forums and even ran games myself, we never allowed players to have more then one character in a single campaign setting. It was usually a standard rule. The only exceptions to those were co-gm's.

To go even further, I used to run several RP forums(no sexual content) and I only allowed each member of my forum to have one character at a time. Now the forums were different then this one. Each forum was a single "World" and it would contain multiple ongoing campaigns/story lines.

An interesting point about that = We never had to wait a week for someone to post. Sometimes we'd get 5-10 posts from a single character in a single campaign each night (posts would be a couple paragraph's in length) and were a back and forth between groups of usually up to about 5 players. So total post count in a single campaign thread for an evening could be as high as 50 sometimes. It was pretty standard to get a thousand posts in a single thread in just a few weeks. The quality of posts and players was always excellent. (Although we didn't have a lot of those really large 5 paragraph or longer type posts. I know some people love the novel length descriptive posts. So, that's a drawback for some players.)

More importantly, I found when each member of the forum only had a single character they were more actively engaged in both their characters and the ongoing stories. They were also more inclined to post back and forth with other players rapidly. The biggest draw back was the attachment level to some characters, although the emotional investment also made for more robust character development.



Anyone else have a similar experience with only allowing 1 character per game? (Where the players were more engaged and invested in their characters and stories.)

Offline Roxy Rocket

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #749 on: May 03, 2013, 03:42:23 PM »
sn
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 12:50:34 AM by Roxy Rocket »