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Author Topic: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions  (Read 56318 times)

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Online Chrystal

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #600 on: December 26, 2012, 10:00:52 AM »
I think Fuzzy Time requires a thread all by itself... I've just started a new sandbox using the principal, and I'd love to have a thread where I can ask questions about how to sort out the continuity errors that are bound to arise...

So far, I have put a "Time" tag in the post header that I have asked people to use, and I've given folks a nudge in the OOC thread that if they post that they do something that takes a couple of minutes, in their next post the time has got to be at least a couple of minutes later...

But some simple, easy to understand instructions on how best to handle Fuzzy Time would be very helpful, especially in a dedicated thread that I could link people to?

Offline Devil's Advocate

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #601 on: December 26, 2012, 10:16:54 AM »
Fuzzy time?  Well, that's an interesting term for non-linear posting but I would be happy to give detailed instructions on how I use it.  I don't think it is that complicated but I have been using it for the better part of ten years, so....

Online Chrystal

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #602 on: December 26, 2012, 10:34:36 AM »
Non-Linear time, yes...

Fuzzy gives it a nice, cuddly sort of feel though. Like fuzzy logic. Or fuzzy headedness. Or the fuzzy side of a strip of velcro®...

Offline Devil's Advocate

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #603 on: December 26, 2012, 10:45:20 AM »
Non-Linear time, yes...

Fuzzy gives it a nice, cuddly sort of feel though. Like fuzzy logic. Or fuzzy headedness. Or the fuzzy side of a strip of velcro®...

I prefer fuzzy navels.  :)

Online Chrystal

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #604 on: December 26, 2012, 11:10:46 AM »
Yo, bartender? Two fuzzy navels over here, please?

Offline AndyZ

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #605 on: December 26, 2012, 11:20:20 AM »
The bartender, a bear named Fuzzy Wuzzy, walks in.  At first he seems very happy, until he realizes that he has no hair, and is therefore not fuzzy.  After setting down the drinks, he runs away in tears.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #606 on: December 26, 2012, 12:13:46 PM »
I take "fuzzy" to mean "not entirely clear" in English. If so, non-linear posting requires the absolute opposite, if anything.
I don't require time for postings, but there's a physical paper of relative times for all the PCs in the games I'm running, right next to my bed >:).

Offline Devil's Advocate

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #607 on: December 26, 2012, 12:39:23 PM »
The bartender, a bear named Fuzzy Wuzzy, walks in.  At first he seems very happy, until he realizes that he has no hair, and is therefore not fuzzy.  After setting down the drinks, he runs away in tears.

Gladly accepts the Fuzzy Navel from Fuzzy Wuzzy and hands the second drink to Chrystal.  *Raises his glass to toast her.*

I take "fuzzy" to mean "not entirely clear" in English. If so, non-linear posting requires the absolute opposite, if anything.
I don't require time for postings, but there's a physical paper of relative times for all the PCs in the games I'm running, right next to my bed >:).

You understood the meaning of "fuzzy" correctly.

Offline alxnjshTopic starter

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #608 on: December 26, 2012, 05:27:58 PM »
Ya'll are funny!

I was in a game GMed my Mith that used fuzzy time. It was both interesting and difficult - my character could be all over the place depending on the time in the thread, LOL.

Offline Josietta

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #609 on: December 26, 2012, 05:40:31 PM »
As for the "fuzzy time" bits... the games I have been in that have ran sandbox with multiple days/times allowed, have always had a strict rule on the exactly spanse of time allowed. IE You start posting Dec 15th but are not allowed to post past January 1st.   And we've always had a steadfast rule of watching for time paradoxes. If you run into a time paradox then you have to sort it out yourself. Its made very clear that if one chooses to play multiple time frames with the same character that the time paradox rule applies in force. If you go outside of that force of nature your character will implode. :P  >.<  okay maybe not really.. but its a mess we don't appreciate and the players have to sort out themselves.  At least thats how it is in our games. I've never seen anyone screw up the time and space paradox thingie yet.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #610 on: December 26, 2012, 05:47:40 PM »
As for the "fuzzy time" bits... the games I have been in that have ran sandbox with multiple days/times allowed, have always had a strict rule on the exactly spanse of time allowed. IE You start posting Dec 15th but are not allowed to post past January 1st.   And we've always had a steadfast rule of watching for time paradoxes. If you run into a time paradox then you have to sort it out yourself. Its made very clear that if one chooses to play multiple time frames with the same character that the time paradox rule applies in force. If you go outside of that force of nature your character will implode. :P  >.<  okay maybe not really.. but its a mess we don't appreciate and the players have to sort out themselves.  At least thats how it is in our games. I've never seen anyone screw up the time and space paradox thingie yet.
Quoted because this part is worth to be repeated.

Online Chrystal

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #611 on: December 26, 2012, 06:24:58 PM »
Good advice.

That said, I do have a one-on-one request available called "Paradox"  if anyone is interested.... *giggle*

No but seriously, I do appreciate the advice and hints here. Non-linear time does require people to keep track of where they are when, and I think Josietta's advice to make people keep track themselves and sort out any paradoxes themselves is a good idea. Of course the GM is there to give advice on what to do should it be required...

Thanks guys and gals. Any more tips on the best way to make it work? - Or for that matter on the worst way to make it not work? Anyone had any really bad experiences with non-linear time posting that they care to share, and let others learn from their mistakes?

Offline Josietta

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #612 on: December 26, 2012, 07:14:02 PM »
I think one way that it could go bad would be to allow the players to spread themselves out too thinly. I'd limit the amount of time spanning they could do.

We actually nearly ran into a paradox in the Hogwarts game. We had started playing a Christmas Day morning scene when someone later started a Christmas Eve party.  We really didn't know what had happened the evening prior when we started the morning scene and we subsequently had to leave gaps and holes in our posts for the morning to avoid paradox and in some cases end the scene more quickly than we would have liked. This comes from playing a scene out without preplanning.   I'd high suggest that player plan out big events and work in the "side fuzzies" around the bigger group events.

Offline Devil's Advocate

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Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #613 on: December 28, 2012, 12:07:51 AM »
As for the "fuzzy time" bits... the games I have been in that have ran sandbox with multiple days/times allowed, have always had a strict rule on the exactly spanse of time allowed. IE You start posting Dec 15th but are not allowed to post past January 1st.   And we've always had a steadfast rule of watching for time paradoxes. If you run into a time paradox then you have to sort it out yourself. Its made very clear that if one chooses to play multiple time frames with the same character that the time paradox rule applies in force. If you go outside of that force of nature your character will implode. :P  >.<  okay maybe not really.. but its a mess we don't appreciate and the players have to sort out themselves.  At least thats how it is in our games. I've never seen anyone screw up the time and space paradox thingie yet.

Totally agree, Josi.  When I run non-linear time it has to be very specific time frames, otherwise it is more difficult to guide plot or set events.

Offline Moraline

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #614 on: December 28, 2012, 07:53:08 AM »
How well do free-form games with random tables work? How much interest do you find people have in those types of forum rp games?

Example:

All free form accept every time someone leaves the safe city zone for any reason they roll on a percentage table that will tell them how safe/successful their trip is? (Then it's up to them to write how it plays out and what they encounter, etc..)

Sample table:
%
1-30     = Safe and successful trip/travel
31-65   = Trip successful but have a minor encounter
66-97   = Complete the trip/travel but have a major dangerous encounter
98-100 = Trip is a disaster and you sustain possible major injury
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 07:54:15 AM by Moraline »

Online Chrystal

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #615 on: December 28, 2012, 08:04:08 AM »
How well do free-form games with random tables work? How much interest do you find people have in those types of forum rp games?

Example:

All free form accept every time someone leaves the safe city zone for any reason they roll on a percentage table that will tell them how safe/successful their trip is? (Then it's up to them to write how it plays out and what they encounter, etc..)

Sample table:
%
1-30     = Safe and successful trip/travel
31-65   = Trip successful but have a minor encounter
66-97   = Complete the trip/travel but have a major dangerous encounter
98-100 = Trip is a disaster and you sustain possible major injury

That seems to be the basic premise of the forthcoming Shadowrun game?

Also of Ciosa's "Evil Genius" game.

 Except that it's the GM doing the dice rolls in both cases, so far as I can tell.

Offline LunarSage

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #616 on: December 28, 2012, 10:02:22 AM »
That seems to be the basic premise of the forthcoming Shadowrun game?

Except that it's the GM doing the dice rolls in both cases, so far as I can tell.

Yep yep!  That's the basic idea.  :-)

We shall see if the idea ends up working well or not in the long run.

Online Chrystal

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #617 on: December 28, 2012, 11:39:25 AM »
*grins* I'm glad I actually got that right! Proves I've been "listening"... Actually, no, more to the point, it means that what I thought you meant was what you actually meant!

Offline Moraline

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #618 on: December 28, 2012, 12:57:59 PM »
Yep yep!  That's the basic idea.  :-)

We shall see if the idea ends up working well or not in the long run.

Ah, I had seen your thread but I thought it was going to be a simple system game.

Are you getting a lot of interest in it? Have you played those types of games before/do they seem to work out well?

Offline LunarSage

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #619 on: December 28, 2012, 01:20:04 PM »
Ah, I had seen your thread but I thought it was going to be a simple system game.

Ah, nope.  It's going to be what I like to call "semi-freeform".  There are very simple stats, but no player dice rolls.  Stats are there to aid in the RP and if combat should break out, make it easier to freeform it.

Quote
Are you getting a lot of interest in it? Have you played those types of games before/do they seem to work out well?

We are getting a good amount of interest, but I suppose we'll see for sure come Tuesday.  :-)

I've done successful semi freeform games before, but nothing as in depth as what we've created here in terms of information on the setting and creating a very simple set of stats and diceless rules. 

The game will be quite focused on resources and management of them.  In Shadowrun, that means nuyen, which are roughly equivalent to a dollar in our time.  I personally love that aspect of the game... being able to go shopping and make decisions of what and what not to buy based on how much money you have at your disposal. 

Online Chrystal

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #620 on: January 21, 2013, 01:27:22 PM »
*Saunters in and orders a large glass of something strong*

Seriously, I need a drink!

I have a question regarding dropping out of a group game. Let me first of all, present my argument:

This is a hobby. It's supposed to be fun, right? If it's not fun, if it has turned into a chore, then it's time to stop. I'm sure everyone would agree? So, if you start a one-on-one role-play with someone, and after a while you realise that, actually, you really aren't enjoying it, the sensible thing to do is to PM your partner and apologise, tell them you don't wish to carry on, and see what they say. Of course it pays to discuss it first because there may be something the two of you can do to save the story, but at the end of the day, no-one who is mature and reasonable objects if you say "I'm really sorry, I'm not enjoying this as much as I thought I would, can we do something else, please?"

Yes, I know there are some immature players out there who do throw a hissy-fit if you say that, but in all honesty, they deserve what they get...! And of course we all know that the most common way to drop a game is to simply stop posting in it... (Guilty of this myself, to my shame).

But this particular thread isn't about one-on-one games, it's more about group games.

So, the same rule applies, really, doesn't it? If you join a game and then either don't have the time, or find that you aren't enjoying it, or someone else joins whom you absolutely cannot stand (That hasn't happened yet, but there's always a first), the thing to do is to either PM the GM, or post in the OOC, to say that you will be dropping out, and why. Okay, so it's not as easy to do that in a group, especially when people say stuff like "Aww, we're sorry to see you go, we'll miss you"... But generally no-one objects, everyone understands, because we've all been there.

All that to say this (Yes, my actual question):

What if you are the GM?

Seriously: You start a game that seems like a great idea and you have some really good plans for it, but as can happen in group games, especially sandbox games, it goes off in a totally different direction. Suddenly it's no longer the game you set out to run, other players seem to have taken over and are making their own plots.

Don't get me wrong, please, there is nothing whatever wrong with that - in fact in a sandbox it is the way it is supposed to work! But if the poor old GM suddenly isn't enjoying the game anymore, why should they not be allowed to drop out, the same as any other player?

See, the thing is, if a player says "I'm dropping out", unless he/she is a player in a critical role - and in a sandbox there shouldn't be any critical roles - or is the last player, the game can actually carry on, and usually does, and the GM can often recruit more players. But if the GM says, "I'm dropping out", every other player in the game goes "Oh... oh well, it was nice while it lasted", and drops out too! No matter how much they were enjoying it up to that point!

Personally I don't think that's fair. What do others think?

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #621 on: January 21, 2013, 03:13:16 PM »
*Saunters in and orders a large glass of something strong*

Seriously, I need a drink!

I have a question regarding dropping out of a group game. Let me first of all, present my argument:

This is a hobby. It's supposed to be fun, right? If it's not fun, if it has turned into a chore, then it's time to stop.
Yes. If that happens, drop. I'd rather have you announcing it in the OOC, but whatever works for you.

Quote
What if you are the GM?

Seriously: You start a game that seems like a great idea and you have some really good plans for it, but as can happen in group games, especially sandbox games, it goes off in a totally different direction. Suddenly it's no longer the game you set out to run, other players seem to have taken over and are making their own plots.

Don't get me wrong, please, there is nothing whatever wrong with that - in fact in a sandbox it is the way it is supposed to work! But if the poor old GM suddenly isn't enjoying the game anymore, why should they not be allowed to drop out, the same as any other player?

See, the thing is, if a player says "I'm dropping out", unless he/she is a player in a critical role - and in a sandbox there shouldn't be any critical roles - or is the last player, the game can actually carry on, and usually does, and the GM can often recruit more players. But if the GM says, "I'm dropping out", every other player in the game goes "Oh... oh well, it was nice while it lasted", and drops out too! No matter how much they were enjoying it up to that point!

Personally I don't think that's fair. What do others think?
If you're no longer enjoying the game and can't find a compromise, well, drop it! Seriously, are you getting paid or something? (On a tangent - if you are, you're awesome and I suggest we start a syndicate :P! But I still doubt that's the case, and not because you're not awesome or something >:)!)

The problem is, as you observed, it would effectively end the game (unless someone steps up to take the diceroller...no, it's not that... GMing mantle... screw that, too role of the Referee). So, could you go for a solution?
A good rule of thumb is, as always, address OOC issues OOC and IC issues IC (although when someone is using the IC as a venue for OOC trouble, that's an OOC problem despite the IC element). So, could you post in the OOC of your game and give it a chance?
I've actually seen what people post when they agree to run four-colour supers and the players go all Punisher on the villains.
"Guys, that's not the game I had agreed to run. Can you please stop doing problematic things X, Y and Z which are subverting the tone we agreed on at the start?"
I don't remember what your game is, and even if I did, I can't guess why you're no longer enjoying it. But I'm sure you know. So, point it to the players, and explain why.
"Guys, some of your actions are making the game less fun for me. Can you please stop doing problematic things X, Y and Z which are making it un-fun for me because of X1, Y1 and Z1? Pretty please with cherries on top?" (Fine, I admit, the last sentence is one you're better off skipping ;D!)
Then discuss OOC. If you can't reach a compromise?
"It was good while it lasted!" 8-)

So, that's my advice. Maybe it's not the best, but at least it's free :P!

Online Chrystal

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #622 on: January 21, 2013, 03:47:53 PM »
Hey, advice from a mentat is not to be dismissed lightly! Thanks, Thufir.

The game in question is one that I stared fairly recently, a post-apocalyptic setting where some sort of virus has turned all men into zombies and the only survivors are women with enough butch to kill the men, or enough mousie to successfully hide until they are rescued by the first lot... It seemed like a good idea. But I've already had two incidents, one of a character apparently committing suicide, and another of a character shooting a NPC dead when they were told to disarm them.

It's partly my fault, because, in order to give the impression of a dog-eat-dog world, I had the group leader execute a NPC out of hand in my opening post. I think that was a bad mistake, now and if I could change it I would.

The thing is, these are IC issues and as you say, shou;ld be dealt with IC, but I just don't have any desire to do so. I have PMed both players. The first (apparent suicide) was actually a lack of communication between her and the player who was supposed ho have her character rush in to see if the first character was okay, complicated by a comment from someone saying "We'll miss you".

The other issue was compounded by someone else posting after the NPC was killed, creating panic and havoc. And then it was too late.

And the whole thing is made impossible for me to track by the fact that it's in a single thread and we're using that rubberised time keeping. That was another mistake that I shan't make again.

Seriously, if I was just a player, I would have dropped out weeks before I actually said anything in the OOC about wanting to quit.

Offline AndyZ

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #623 on: January 21, 2013, 06:12:45 PM »
Every game you run, you learn something not to do next time.  That's just the "hard knock" lesson.

As far as games, games can keep going as long as either someone is moderating them or they're designed to be completely sandbox without plot.  Abducted by Tentacle Monsters doesn't require anything from me because the game revolves entirely around girls getting abducted, tentacled, and then left in the dormitory again for the next monster.  Rinse and repeat.  Even that has people leave and come in on a fairly regular basis (and has a built-in way for players to disappear for a while).

If you want a game to continue without you while still having a plot, you have to get someone to take over.  Even then, half the players usually drop because the vision isn't shared and it isn't always what people signed up for.

Offline Moraline

Re: GM Lounge - Bartenders Answer All Your Questions
« Reply #624 on: January 22, 2013, 10:49:55 AM »
Everyone has the right to drop out of any game that they feel like.

You as a player or even GM are not responsible for other peoples feelings. You're only responsible for your own. They should suck it up and get on with their lives.

Now with that all said, I would suggest just simply telling the GM. "I'm dropping out of the game, how would you like me to handle my characters departure?" IE: Should I get my character killed, or just disappear? etc...

Personally, in an adventure game, I think it makes the RP more exciting if the character is killed or some other action happens to them to take them out of the game.

I also don't like it when a player just simple stops playing - at least write yourself out with a post or tell the GM to feel free to write you out of the game. That way the players have a continuity to the game. Or if you're the GM then send everyone a PM explaining that halting the game (or optionally allowing them to continue it without you.)

PS: If the GM tosses a hissy fit then I'd just send a PM to the other players and advise them that you told the GM you were leaving and because of personally differences with them you're leaving it up to them to resolve the departure.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:52:04 AM by Moraline »