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Author Topic: Dark Heresy gone  (Read 2472 times)

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Offline HairyHereticTopic starter

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2008, 07:20:25 PM »
The nice thing about Apocalypse is you can justify pretty much anything. We had a small Apoc game a few months back, with about 12,000 points and 3-4 players each side. My chaos army had the vindicare assassin squad (3 Night Lords snipers), and my Ork Big Mek, Wazdreg (my signiture character in my current army).

The assassins I took because I really like snipers, and feel that they're something chaos should have, especially Night Lords. The Ork I took for pure amusement value. With his Shokk Attack Gun he became priority target number 1 for the Tau, had 2 railguns bounce off his head, and was then taken down by massed burst cannon fire. Just cos he sprayed pureed snotlings all over the front of a hammerhead.

It was fun though.  ;D

Offline Kazyth

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2008, 02:37:23 PM »
Woo, the gaming supplier for the shipping/online sales company I work for is already almost out of Dark Heresy books, and they are one of the largest suppliers in this hemisphere.  Get them while you can, folks.

Offline kongming

Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2008, 10:40:32 PM »
*coughs*InternetPiracy*coughs*

"I do not condone illegal practice."

Wink wink.

That being said, if they're not producing any more, they clearly don't want to make a profit and don't want people buying them. As a result, we can assume that, as piracy won't hurt their sales (you can't buy it), and they don't even want a profit (it's GW, they hate making money. The only logical explanation for their business practices), you can go ahead and pirate it.

Or they're just being a bunch of dicks, and deserve it. But you're STILL not hurting their sales.

I swear, the day people make plug-in replicator devices where you download a "replicate code" and produce items is the day that GW learns how much their business practices suck, when everyone in the world just downloads and creates their own sprues etc.

Offline Kazyth

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2008, 11:01:50 PM »
Bahahaha, you very much have the right of it.  We have a physical storefront as well, with a large GW crowd who plays every Wednesday and Saturday.  With the restrictions on selling their products online, the constant changing of Codex's (with the usual invalidation of entire lists and models), the way they price models according to how strong/vital they are, and the poor business decisions (Projecting huge sales for the Lord of the Rings strategy game for a year after the last movie came out?  WTF?)  As well as limited support for their spin off games (I am a die-hard Bloodbowl fan.  Chaos Dwarves Rule!), it is sometimes surprising that anyone still buys their stuff.  Ah well.

Offline kongming

Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2008, 11:51:14 PM »
Not that there are really any good alternatives for tabletop wargaming, unless you want to make your own (one person is making rules for tabletop LEGO wargaming. EPIC WIN).

I mean, the closest is Warmachine, by Privateer Press. It isn't that great, and the company have some truly bad policies, just like GW. From their somewhat sexist introduction ("This is a game for MEN. You need to grow a pair to play this."), to their insistence on crappy metal (hint: plastic is better), to the fact that they associate themselves with their message boards, which are even worse than the WotC ones.

So what we need is for someone to make something that could be a serious alternative to GW.

Offline Kazyth

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2008, 11:56:24 PM »
I agree.  The problem is, everything that comes out that tries to rival GW tanks, either because it is a bad system, or people refuse to leave GW to try it and it has no support.  I did hear that Confrontation was recently bought and is being revamped, with pre-painted plastic figures and unpainted metal available.  There's quite a lot of buzz about it.

Offline HairyHereticTopic starter

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2008, 02:34:31 AM »
I play Warmachine (Cryx) and Hordes (Legion of Everblight). I think the games are actually quite good. The sexist introduction I found funny, as I presume its supposed to be stupidly over the top.

As for the use of metal, IIRC the infrastructure for plastic moulding costs about 10 times that of metal, so unless you're producing similar volumes you're going to cost yourself more in the short term.

And there's nothing wrong with associating yourself with your message boards. Getting feedback, and listening to it, from the people who play your games isn't a bad thing.

Offline kongming

Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2008, 03:17:44 AM »
In general I'd agree. Except, this is the Privateer message boards. Which are worse than the WotC ones. I didn't think that was possible until seeing them.

Bring up inconsistencies in their setting info?
"Stop nitpicking, you're just too stupid to understand what's written right there!"
"Simple. They left things obscure as plot-hooks. Play the game, so your DM can answer it!"

"That's not a plot-hook, it's a plot-hole. What if I AM the DM?"
(repeat of the above answers. Or thread locked. Seriously.)

I think it was Cryx that had the model for the tortured elephant? Some people start complaining because the model looks ugly and stupid (amongst the rest of the army, which looks really cool - I won't argue there). And in fact is a crap unit to include in your army. The responses quickly lead to "You're too much of a baby, just because you don't like the idea of tortured animals!" and people talking about how they'd like to torture real elephants and set animal rights activists on fire. By this point, actual "It's animal cruelty to depict that unit!" people have shown up, too.

In the end, everyone except the "I love torturing real animals! *fap fap fap*" crowd are banned, and the mods make fun of the "We don't like that mini for aesthetic/mechanical/ethical reasons" crowd by releasing a cafepress badge related to it.

Basically, by choosing to associate themselves with that kind of message board, they are giving out a message. That message is "Be a dick. We are."

Which is a pity, because I really like Iron Kingdoms. One of my favourite games was that.

Offline Kazyth

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2008, 08:18:58 AM »
Actually, it's Skorne that has the tortured elephant men and babies.  But yeah, I saw those message boards.  Made me sad and kind of tired.  I like the game, I have an Everblight army, but the crowd that I was playing with... not so much.

I did love the Iron Kingdoms setting too, and in my own way I prefer the open plot.  I like to make my own reasons and such up.  But, in the end, I think I'll stick to Ebberon, Exalted, or Shadowrun 4th Ed, and avoid wargaming for a while, until something new comes along.

Offline HairyHereticTopic starter

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2008, 11:42:18 AM »
Well, I don't hang around forums for the games I play very much, so can't comment on the likes of what you've seen. All I know is that Warmachine has a decent following in my local games group, and we get some fun games out of it. We're also looking at running a Warhammer 30,000 campaign, fighting the Heresy using the campaign set from Bell of Lost Souls.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2008, 12:03:30 PM »
So now I know Iron Kingdoms probably isn't worth my interest. *shiver*

Offline Kazyth

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2008, 12:04:52 PM »
Good System, but I prefer Ebberon... or Exlated... or Scion... or Shadowrun 4th Ed...

Offline HairyHereticTopic starter

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2008, 12:06:32 PM »
IK is supposed to be a good enough RPG setting. Some of my group played in it, til the GM moved back to Sweden.

For my own RPGing, Exalted or L5R by preference, with another handfull of games I'd like to play if someone would run them :)

Offline kongming

Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2008, 06:53:13 PM »
Iron Kingdoms is pretty good. Sure, it has inconsistencies here and there, but you only notice them because you actually read through the setting book - which is more than I can say I've done for most settings. In the beginning, it only had three books: Monsternomicon (MM by any other name - and even had a list of core monsters that work just fine in the setting), Player's Guide (or whatever it was called. Half of that is art and descriptive info.) and the World Guide (an inch-thick book of nothing except setting info. Everything from currencies to crime & punishment to holidays).

Now, unfortunately, it has a few issues: a lot of these monsters will seriously own your party. This is because you just don't get magic items (protip: This is D&D 3.5. Like it or not, a character has to have their wealth-by-level, until you get to the Wish Economy, where they are assumed to have anything worth 15K or less), and also because, well...

I'm going to tell you something unpopular yet true: If your class doesn't have 9th level spells listed somewhere, you won't make it. Fighters, monks and all of those guys are in fact underpowered after a certain low level, and that's all there is to say about it. The fighter and monk are especially bad. A rogue is good as long as they have plenty of magic items to abuse, in effect pretending to be spellcasters.

Iron Kingdoms makes half the monsters outright immune to magic, or even magic-absorbent. This means there is no-one around who is able to effectively hurt them. When I played it, I was really lucky: I played a Warlock, a class that is normally underpowered, but took a feat to make Eldritch Blast 'Supernatural' instead of 'Spell-like'. So between flying and being able to hurt things with spell-immunity, I could actually deal the damage and not get hurt. Yeah, the Warlock was the most useful.

Also, I recommend not getting the supplement magazines unless you have a hard-on for guns. I think guns suck, unless we're talking 40K with its rule of cool. If the gun isn't an automatic rocket launcher or a flamethrower, I don't want to hear about it. In core IK, you have pistols (single-shot, needs a round or so to reload, deals something like 2d10 damage), double-barrelled pistols (2 shots), rifles (4d10, takes even longer to reload) and double-barrelled rifles. That's it. High damage, range, but you just won't be shooting very often.

The gun-mage is cool, though. They have guns, but fire spells out of them instead.

The supplements introduce grenade launchers and gatling guns. Suddenly the spellcasters all suck, the melee fighters still suck, and ranged fighters, well, they can do heaps of damage to enemies in your standard boring-ass way of the US revolution or WW1, but they still can't do anything useful.

So there you have it. Avoid the supplements. Be aware that the core thing has issues. It's generally very good though. Shame about the company, too. Oh, and the Witchfire trilogy is a wonderful campaign for it. When was the last time you felt sorry for the main villain before you even met them, and wanted to help redeem them?

Oh, also, if your DM suggests mixing it with Eberron, you should probably stab them in the face. With a chainsaw. Failberron is bad enough as it is (to be fair, there aren't many settings I do say nice things about, but Eberron is particularly worthy of scorn, and the "It's better than Failgotten Realms, so it's perfect!" crowd anger me more), but mix it with IK and insist that you need Failforged in it? Yuck.

Offline HairyHereticTopic starter

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2008, 07:34:13 PM »
No knocking the Realms .. I spent several happy years wandering round there in 2nd ed AD&D time  :D

Offline kongming

Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2008, 07:46:04 PM »
I actually like the Realms. I mean there are people who believe there are two settings: Eberron and FR. And they like their stupid robots and "X sexed up Y. IT BREEDS TRUE!" races, therefore they automatically hate FR, automatically love anything Eberron and ignore any flaws in it, and basically they're tools.

I'm not saying FR is perfect. It has things I don't like. But I haven't encountered them in my play experience - indeed, I think it's great for "Pick a deity - you'll actually find one you like here!" (a major failing of many settings. They have a small pool of deities to worship, and none of them are interesting, therefore it's hard to play a cleric and really get into the role of such a zealot), and even just using the maps and some organisations if you want to be lazy.

Alternatively, you can go the full thing and make it grounded in the history and events of the Realms. Or you could cross your fingers and hope 4E won't utterly ruin the Realms. Apparently most of the cool gods are dying, and all of the NPCs we hate (Elminster, Drizzt etc.) somehow survive.

On the plus side, they have a rule of "if it's published, it's canon". So if I ever get something published by them? It'll be canon that Drizzt gets eaten by a small lizard and permanently killed, and Elminster contracts syphilis from the goddess he's been knocking up and also is permanently killed, and the new cool thing will be a sorceress who flies by standing on a pair of dragons, playing an electric guitar in the process.

The guitar shoots out bolts of lightning that turn people into ravers.

Offline HairyHereticTopic starter

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2008, 06:45:10 AM »
Well, back when I ran the Realms we started with the Avatar trilogy of adventures (don't know if you know those ones or not) and by the time we finished up that campaign, we had a bunch of 20th+ level adventurers settling in ... Daggerdale I think it was, pushing the boundaries of civilisation outwards from our fortified keeps (earth elementals make create construction crews :) ) and skirmishing with the Zentilar and their allies.

Fond memories  :D

Offline kongming

Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2008, 06:54:27 AM »
Haven't heard of those adventures, but I know what you mean - all it takes is just one good campaign to leave fond memories, and suddenly it doesn't matter about any problems in it, you can still enjoy it just because of the good memories.

Oddly enough, my favourite FR NPCs are from the Bioware games - Minsc and Boo, followed by... I can't remember her name. The female human bard from NWN1. I kept her with me all throughout the regular campaign, then in the very first part of Hordes of the Underdark, she developed a crush on my character, which was an awesome win.

Offline HairyHereticTopic starter

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2008, 07:28:31 AM »
The Avatar trilogy forms part of the FR history. Basically 3 of the evil Gods, Bane (general nastiness), Bhaal (assassins) and Myrkul (death), steal the Tablets of Fate, on which are inscribed the Gods names and dominions, thinking they'll gain power. Ao, the overgod tells whoever stole them to own up. No one does so, and all the Gods and Goddesses are banished to the Realms.

So, clerics prayers are no longer being answered, and magic goes haywire. The PCs get involved with this, and over the course of it deal with a Zhent invasion of Shadowdale, are accused of murdering Elminster, and at the end there's a big fight in Waterdeep that sees Cyric, Kelemvor and Midnight (NPCs) rising to become new Gods.

I think the three modules (and novels, now I think about it) were Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep.

I never really got into NWN, because something in my machines hardware really didn't get along with it, and it would crash with depressing regularity. After a while I just gave up on it.

Offline HairyHereticTopic starter

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Re: Dark Heresy gone
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2008, 05:57:25 PM »
Well, looks like Dark Heresy isn't as gone as was feared.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/PDF/pr-2008-GamesWorkshop-Sabertooth.pdf

Fantasy Flight Games to Exclusively Publish Board Games, Card Games, and Roleplaying Games based on Games Workshop properties.
Second deal to include Sabertooth Games' Universal Fighting System CCG

Roseville, Minnesota (February 22, 2008) – Fantasy Flight Games (“FFG”) and Games Workshop (“GW”) jointly announced today that they have reached an agreement for Fantasy Flight Games to become the exclusive publisher of board games, card games (including collectible card games), and roleplaying games based on Games Workshop’s family of renowned intellectual properties including Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Warhammer 40,000. Additionally, the deal will grant FFG the exclusive rights to publish new versions of the classic board and card games titles published by Games Workshop over the last 25 years.

Additionally, a second agreement between the parties will transfer the publication rights and system of the Universal Fighting System CCG, formerly published by Sabertooth Games, to FFG.

“We are just so thrilled to partner with Games Workshop in such an encompassing deal,” said Christian T. Petersen, CEO and founder of FFG. “Not only will we be able to continue the publication of some phenomenal roleplaying, card, and board games currently on the market, but we look forward to creating new games for the popular GW universes!”

"In Fantasy Flight Games, we’ve found a partner who shares our passion for gaming and our dedication to producing the highest quality products,” said Andy Jones, Head of Legal and Licensing for Games Workshop. “!e legacy of our board, card, and roleplaying games is in the best possible hands with them, and we are extremely excited about the prospects of seeing some fabulous new games set in our universes as well. ”

"!is is the beginning of an exciting new era for the Universal Fighting System," said Stephen Horvath, CEO of Sabertooth Games. “Fantasy Flight Games are the perfect choice to carry on the UFS line, and fans can expect great new content and more fantastic events supporting their favorite CCG going forward.

FFG will take over the production of Talisman, and plan to produce a new printing and expansions for the 4th edition of this ever-popular classic board game. Further, FFG will continue production and new-product support for the Universal Fighting System CCG, the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay RPG, and the new smash-hit Dark Heresy RPG. More details on FFG’s publication plans for these titles will be provided in the weeks to come. !e agreement does not include certain GW titles in which miniatures feature as the predominant component of the game, such as Space Hulk and Blood Bowl.

!e Universal Fighting System CCG will continue to be sold as starter and booster packs in a traditional CCG format. FFG has no current plans to adopt the game to its LCG™ (“Living Card Game”) sales model.

- - - - -

Hopefully they're just going to take the existing stuff and continue it, rather than try a rebuild from scratch.