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Author Topic: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss (closed FULL)  (Read 25196 times)

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Offline Karasu

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #250 on: December 11, 2011, 10:52:06 PM »
I'd be happy to help. ^^ What sort of a character would you like to try and build?  Something that's tough in melee?  Something with casting abilities?  Would you like to go for a larger number of HD, or something more template-based?  I can offer plenty of options, either way...

If you have an IM we can discuss there, as i'm not exactly sure besides a basic RP wise of how my dragon might play XD

Offline ShadowFox89

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #251 on: December 11, 2011, 11:02:58 PM »
Dracominocon has a nice section about dragon personalities. But generally, since we are making unique creatures, it is up to you.

Offline Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #252 on: December 12, 2011, 03:07:39 AM »
Hi guys, I try tackle quite big pile of questions here. But first to address; Kunoichi, if your base creature does not have undead subtype and being outsider already (not sure is there 'undead outsiders' in hell/abyss), you cannot get undead subtype through template. Your 'immortality' as demilich is based on other methods (otherwise you can get too cheapily big pile of immunities). I think most issue is that true outsiders cannot be undead as their body and soul are one and the undead is rotting corpse with animated spirit in it.

But one way go around the situation is that you have base undead which had been cast fiendish undead spell (or which ever is the spell which transports outsider's spirit inside undead corpse). So that way you could be undead outsider but it's to already exchisting undead which needs to be made from a base creature (meaning you do not gain undead base creature traits, just the undead traits plus being outsider). Also even if demilich is usually floating skull but you can be anything you like to be; you can have a humanoid form and still got vorpal immunity.

As note the above also applies to any subtypes gained through templates, your treated as the subtype when it comes gaining feats but you gain none subtype traits if they are not already part of your base race. Also I want remind everyone that you get Baatezu or tana'ri subtypes for free when monster is complete legally.

Also note that Speed enchants do not stack with each other nor they do not stack with haste (3.0 edition allowed it to happen but it was removed in 3.5 dnd if there is some missleading information somewhere).

Uhm...  Why? ^^;

Because I say so :P. But overall is meant to choose between a good template or more HD basically.

Yes, you do. But if my character doesn't count as a true dragon anymore, it's a moot point. Better off going with my far more insane idea.

If your base creature is a dragon, then you are a dragon. But you need stick in some template which gives it native outsider or outsider subtype to qualify. Or PrC which gives it outsider subtype. But as note templates which would not normally apply to dragons they do now in this game.

Zaer - since Creatures of Legend are all over the place, would you let us customize the three domains we're allowed to draw spells from instead of being stuck with Protection, Strength, and War?

Yes, you can choose from whole domain list instead three. But as house rule of mine regarding reflective hide or similar abilities; your spell turning you need to roll for each battle. During each battle you reflect that many spells until it 'wears out'. It is renewed for next battle and so roll again to see how many spells you deflect back automatically. Just to avoid you have perfect immunity vs magic.

Urge...to..combo...Starmantle Cloak...with...Evasion...rising....

No! Bad Glyphstone! Bad! Less Cheese! *newspaper smack*

*picks newspaper maul and crunches Glyphstone under it*

I got GM once who allowed that combo and did not know it until he tried kill my 21 level char who had evasion and high reflex save with a god slayer (CR 34 mob).

Should I get Ulitharid Illithid (Lords of Madness) and make it 3-4? Dragon might end up being tricky to work around with how I initially wanted to go...

Step 1: Ulitharid Illithid (CR 12 base)
Step 2: Pseudonatural Creature Template (CR +2) Gotta drop this, realized it drops intelligence to 3. Maybe replace with half-Farspawn to increase total CR to 27 at the end.
Step 3: Shadow Template (CR +1)
Step 4: This depends. If allowed, Unholy Scion (which is usually restricted to humanoids) or Half-Fiend if not. +3 CR either way
Step 5: 8 levels of Warblade (effectively a +8 CR). Up to CR26 at this point.

 Gives me a nice little nightmarish creature. Unfortunately, no way for immortality at this point. Maybe sucking out the brain of Boccob ^_^'

Unholy Scion would be allowed to illithids. As said template restrictions are off.

Character concepts at this point:
Base of Skullcrusher Ogre, add in Unholy Scion, levels of some melee class (likely Warblade)
Base of Tarterian Dragon, add in Dracolich, a couple levels in a class (do Dragon PrC's count?)
Possibly some other character ideas, depending on how much time it will take to make them work.

Dragon prC's do count to class levels.

One of my templates (Vampire Lord) gives me leadership as a bonus feat as well as wildshape as a level 12 druid. Since I can't actually use either one despite them both being very versatile abilities that probably play into the CR adjustment I'm willing to trade them for...

- 1 cr to the template (sure to take the bite out of the +6 cr for my vampireness), or

Summon monster IX 1/day (versatility and servants, exactly what the template originally offered), or

2 extra feats (not my Favorite, but very simple)


PS: Can I take corpsecrafting feats and have them apply to my spawn rather than raised undead?

Sorry, you cannot use corpsecrafting feats expect to undead which you create with animated dead, create undead or greater create undead etc. Also indeed Wild Shape and Leadership feats you can replace with 2 feats. Or change wild shape to something else, like, grant some your abilities to your spawn? Like spell-alike ability or give your spawns ability to wild shape. Or you could choose instead leadership to get Skeletal Guard (7th level wiz/sorc spell from spell compendium). Gives some lovely minions on fly if got bodies around you.

33 isn't to bad.

You could always play a Half-Farspawn Colossal Monstrous Crab Were-Battletitan and hit 84 HD (all of which are now outsider HD) at CR 22. CR is funny like that.

OMG! How you got so many HD! But indeed, as you can see in this game you can go pretty nuts :P.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 03:39:35 AM by Zaer Darkwail »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #253 on: December 12, 2011, 06:04:53 AM »

Yes, you can choose from whole domain list instead three. But as house rule of mine regarding reflective hide or similar abilities; your spell turning you need to roll for each battle. During each battle you reflect that many spells until it 'wears out'. It is renewed for next battle and so roll again to see how many spells you deflect back automatically. Just to avoid you have perfect immunity vs magic.


Spells, or spell levels? If it's spell levels, I'll probably want to replace Reflective Hide entirely, because at our CR anything lower than 8ths and 9ths isn't worth paying attention to, and one 8th-9th level spell will burn out the hide's protection for the entire fight.  Besides, Spell Turning doesn't block AoE or Effect spells (like Rays), or any Touch-range spell, so I'm far from magic-proof even if you leave Reflective Hide entirely as it's written.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 06:06:39 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #254 on: December 12, 2011, 06:46:57 AM »
It's the spell levels what are rolled for. But feel free replace it.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #255 on: December 12, 2011, 07:19:30 AM »
Yeah, that really does make Reflective Hide ineffective at the levels we're playing at. I'll trade it out for some extra Immunities then...Mind-Affecting and Polymorphing, I think. That'll free up a huge chunk of cash for me to spend on more items, since I don't need a Third Eye Conceal anymore.

Offline Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #256 on: December 12, 2011, 07:38:08 AM »
Yeah and no one can go to you and do 'polymorph other' spell-alike ability with infinate save DC on you :P. Or deity for that matter. They would need go another way around your polymorph immunity.

Anyways consider some demon players could be interested; You can use obyrith subtype instead tana'ri if you want but you need explain how hell you survived the purge and where you had been in coma past aeons.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #257 on: December 12, 2011, 07:47:57 AM »
Definitely interested - the Obyrith type is very nice, and fits pretty well with my theme of TENTACLES.

Quote
Today, the obyriths are a defeated force, a dying race shuddering
toward extinction. Those who maintain some shred
of influence do so by the tacit approval of the tanaríri (such
as Pazuzu and Pale Night) or because they claim extremely
remote or inhospitable layers (as in the case of the wretched
Obox-ob).
From Fiendish Codex 1. Is that good enough to explain why we're still alive? (the 'claiming an inhospitable layer', in this case).

Offline SomeGuy

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #258 on: December 12, 2011, 07:57:36 AM »
Updated my character sheet a bit, dropped speed entirely and switched greater damage for haste. Got amulet of mighty fists +5, fanged mask, buffeting wings graft (after dropping wings of flying)

Offline who149

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #259 on: December 12, 2011, 09:03:15 AM »
O.o Red Dragons are pretty overpowered...

Quick Question, do I still get spells as a Dragon even if I'm a fighter?

And would I have a Non-Combat Human form? He's a big eater, and needs a way too get pray XD
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 09:37:46 AM by who149 »

Offline Kunoichi

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #260 on: December 12, 2011, 10:32:40 AM »
Hi guys, I try tackle quite big pile of questions here. But first to address; Kunoichi, if your base creature does not have undead subtype and being outsider already (not sure is there 'undead outsiders' in hell/abyss), you cannot get undead subtype through template. Your 'immortality' as demilich is based on other methods (otherwise you can get too cheapily big pile of immunities). I think most issue is that true outsiders cannot be undead as their body and soul are one and the undead is rotting corpse with animated spirit in it.

But one way go around the situation is that you have base undead which had been cast fiendish undead spell (or which ever is the spell which transports outsider's spirit inside undead corpse). So that way you could be undead outsider but it's to already exchisting undead which needs to be made from a base creature (meaning you do not gain undead base creature traits, just the undead traits plus being outsider). Also even if demilich is usually floating skull but you can be anything you like to be; you can have a humanoid form and still got vorpal immunity.

The thing is, though, the Demilich template grants undead traits separately from the undead type.  So even if I stay an outsider, I still get undead traits from the template, without changing my type.

Quote
Because I say so :P. But overall is meant to choose between a good template or more HD basically.

In my experience, it's not really forcing that sort of choice on people, though.  All it's really doing is making things rather annoying when a person has 1 point of CR left over, and not much in the way of things to spend it on.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #261 on: December 12, 2011, 10:52:08 AM »
The thing is, though, the Demilich template grants undead traits separately from the undead type.  So even if I stay an outsider, I still get undead traits from the template, without changing my type.


Likewise...Air Elemental Creature has a specific Special Quality it grants called 'Immunities': "Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning. Not subject to critical hits." Incidentally, this is actually different (weaker) than the actual benefits given to an Elemental typed creature (it can still be flanked, a true Elemental cannot), so it should stand as distinct on its own.

Offline Kunoichi

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #262 on: December 12, 2011, 11:00:07 AM »
If you have an IM we can discuss there, as i'm not exactly sure besides a basic RP wise of how my dragon might play XD

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't. ^^; Perhaps PMs would work?

O.o Red Dragons are pretty overpowered...

Quick Question, do I still get spells as a Dragon even if I'm a fighter?

And would I have a Non-Combat Human form? He's a big eater, and needs a way too get pray XD

Yep, you keep your innate draconic spellcasting.  No shape-changing allowed, though.

Offline Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #263 on: December 12, 2011, 11:16:44 AM »
The thing is, though, the Demilich template grants undead traits separately from the undead type.  So even if I stay an outsider, I still get undead traits from the template, without changing my type.

In my experience, it's not really forcing that sort of choice on people, though.  All it's really doing is making things rather annoying when a person has 1 point of CR left over, and not much in the way of things to spend it on.

Well, undead template gives lots of immunities so I would dislike even allow one subtype allowed from template or else folks would start hunt templates based on what subtypes they give. If they want some specific subtype they need to start as base race which has those subtypes. Even then they would need have template which gives them outsider type to be allowed.

Same way vampire, lich or demilich all given undead subtype but I do not allow the undead subtype taken but I allow otherwise take the template as it's written. The demilich has all undead traits listed because it's from 3.0 DnD book where even subtype stuff was listed in special section when nowadays it's expected GM know out of memory what 'undead subtype' gives or able quickly check it.

Also if person has 1 CR left before meet the line for 23 he can take extra class level instead. Or if person has already max 8 class levels and misses 1 CR from something is what you likely mean. So far I think folks had got no problem fill that CR 1 with something. But I would prefer keep the CR 2/4 outsider HD locked still. Once there is such issue I will talk to the player and give suggestions how cover up CR 1.

Edit;

Likewise...Air Elemental Creature has a specific Special Quality it grants called 'Immunities': "Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning. Not subject to critical hits." Incidentally, this is actually different (weaker) than the actual benefits given to an Elemental typed creature (it can still be flanked, a true Elemental cannot), so it should stand as distinct on its own.

If they are disntinctively given then you can keep those qualities. So it's kind of semi-elemental. If Demilich does give all listed traits sepparately from undead subtype she can keep them. Then it means they are not tied to subtype then.

O.o Red Dragons are pretty overpowered...

Quick Question, do I still get spells as a Dragon even if I'm a fighter?

And would I have a Non-Combat Human form? He's a big eater, and needs a way too get pray XD

You get spells only based on your HD as dragon or outsider this case.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #264 on: December 12, 2011, 11:37:15 AM »
Types, or Subtypes? Undead is a Type, with specific traits and abilities. Something like 'Aquatic' is a Subtype, with different abilities that tend to modify existing traits rather than replace them (as in all your examples).

Offline Kunoichi

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #265 on: December 12, 2011, 11:47:28 AM »
Well, undead template gives lots of immunities so I would dislike even allow one subtype allowed from template or else folks would start hunt templates based on what subtypes they give. If they want some specific subtype they need to start as base race which has those subtypes. Even then they would need have template which gives them outsider type to be allowed.

People are already selecting templates based on what other abilities they give, though.  We've got at least two people with the Half-Farspawn template, simply because they want the extra tentacle attacks, for example.  It just seems like a really arbitrary, pointless restriction, given all the other things you're allowing. ^^;

Quote
Same way vampire, lich or demilich all given undead subtype but I do not allow the undead subtype taken but I allow otherwise take the template as it's written. The demilich has all undead traits listed because it's from 3.0 DnD book where even subtype stuff was listed in special section when nowadays it's expected GM know out of memory what 'undead subtype' gives or able quickly check it.

Also if person has 1 CR left before meet the line for 23 he can take extra class level instead. Or if person has already max 8 class levels and misses 1 CR from something is what you likely mean. So far I think folks had got no problem fill that CR 1 with something. But I would prefer keep the CR 2/4 outsider HD locked still. Once there is such issue I will talk to the player and give suggestions how cover up CR 1.

Edit;

If they are disntinctively given then you can keep those qualities. So it's kind of semi-elemental. If Demilich does give all listed traits sepparately from undead subtype she can keep them. Then it means they are not tied to subtype then.

The Demilich template doesn't actually change your type to undead.  It just grants 'undead traits' without changing your type.  Admittedly, normally it can only be applied to a Lich, but if they listed the traits of a given type back then, then wouldn't the undead traits have already been given by the Lich template?

To give an example, the Spellstitched Creature template from MMII, also a 3.0 product, can only be applied to undead, but doesn't have undead traits listed as part of the abilities it grants.  This leads me to believe that the undead traits granted by the demilich template actually are entirely separate from the undead type.

Offline Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #266 on: December 12, 2011, 12:14:31 PM »
Types, or Subtypes? Undead is a Type, with specific traits and abilities. Something like 'Aquatic' is a Subtype, with different abilities that tend to modify existing traits rather than replace them (as in all your examples).

I mean the Types (the big ones like undead, magical beast etc).

People are already selecting templates based on what other abilities they give, though.  We've got at least two people with the Half-Farspawn template, simply because they want the extra tentacle attacks, for example.  It just seems like a really arbitrary, pointless restriction, given all the other things you're allowing. ^^;

Hmmm, point taken. But what I recall there is template which provides tentacles in savage species (or do I mix it up on something there). But overall I want that the the undead type at least does not provide it's immunities as many of them are plainly said powerful and you can get them very cheap CR cost. But then again we are talking in CR 27 game where you create unique monster which has truly monstrous powers/abilities. So meh, I let you gain all subtypes but you start get vulrenabillities also from said subtype or being specific creature.

Meaning your able to be turned/rebuked by cleric who can surpass your turn resistance + HD twice (or egual with specific PrC, feat or domain), vulrenable to positive energy and vampires case they cannot survive under moving water (would mean example that Paleenchantress char would not work as vampires cannot be under ocean even if aquatic subtype).

So shortly said; consider all numerous immunities the outsiders do not benefit from undead type or subtype at all. But rest are fair game. But as you said the demilich has undead listed traits specifically you get them what is listed in demilich.

Offline Kunoichi

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #267 on: December 12, 2011, 12:25:42 PM »
Hmmm, point taken. But what I recall there is template which provides tentacles in savage species (or do I mix it up on something there). But overall I want that the the undead type at least does not provide it's immunities as many of them are plainly said powerful and you can get them very cheap CR cost. But then again we are talking in CR 27 game where you create unique monster which has truly monstrous powers/abilities. So meh, I let you gain all subtypes but you start get vulrenabillities also from said subtype or being specific creature.

Meaning your able to be turned/rebuked by cleric who can surpass your turn resistance + HD twice (or egual with specific PrC, feat or domain), vulrenable to positive energy and vampires case they cannot survive under moving water (would mean example that Paleenchantress char would not work as vampires cannot be under ocean even if aquatic subtype).

So shortly said; consider all numerous immunities the outsiders do not benefit from undead type or subtype at all. But rest are fair game. But as you said the demilich has undead listed traits specifically you get them what is listed in demilich.

Actually, PaleEnchantress added on the Vampire Lord template as well, which gets rid of a lot of the weaknesses of being a vampire for CR +3.  Of course, depending on what order she applied the templates in, she may well have lost her undead traits anyway, due to the rules on how templates stack...

I'm fine with having undead weaknesses in addition to strengths, though.  It's what I was expecting to have going in, anyway.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #268 on: December 12, 2011, 12:30:58 PM »

The Demilich template doesn't actually change your type to undead.  It just grants 'undead traits' without changing your type.  Admittedly, normally it can only be applied to a Lich, but if they listed the traits of a given type back then, then wouldn't the undead traits have already been given by the Lich template?

To give an example, the Spellstitched Creature template from MMII, also a 3.0 product, can only be applied to undead, but doesn't have undead traits listed as part of the abilities it grants.  This leads me to believe that the undead traits granted by the demilich template actually are entirely separate from the undead type.

Pretty sure that is, as you mentioned, specifically because Demilich and Spellstitched (which was reprinted in Libris Mortis) are Undead-specific templates, so it'd be redundant to reprint Undead traits. Demilich is, evidentally, a happy exception.

@Zaer: Is ruling over a particularly nasty and inhospitable abyssal layer, as described in the FCI quote, sufficient explanation for why an obyrith lord is still alive?

Offline PaleEnchantress

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #269 on: December 12, 2011, 12:38:54 PM »

Meaning your able to be turned/rebuked by cleric who can surpass your turn resistance + HD twice (or egual with specific PrC, feat or domain), vulrenable to positive energy and vampires case they cannot survive under moving water (would mean example that Paleenchantress char would not work as vampires cannot be under ocean even if aquatic subtype).

Well for one vampires with a natural swim speed never are in danger of taking damage from running water, so aquatic vampires can and do survive under the ocean. Even if they did though the Vampire lord template removed that. Also it's running water that repels vampires "still water" such as indoor pools and possibly a powerful outsider's demiplane doesn't hurt vampires. An important thing to consider since my minions will have vampire weaknesses even if i don't.

The one vampire weakness that isn't diminished for me is entering a private residence uninvited. The sun weakens me but doesn't harm me. Also most outer planes (lower especially) don't have a legitimate sun. Some, like Shendalavri, go so far as to point out that they look like they have a sun but don't actually have one.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #270 on: December 12, 2011, 12:43:30 PM »
Do you have immunity to acid, Pale? Part of my idea for a plane so rotten and unpleasant that I get to keep it is the same storm-wracked ocean, but with acid rain instead of water.

If not, we can always be 'neighbors' instead of sharing an abyssal layer.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 12:44:31 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline PaleEnchantress

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #271 on: December 12, 2011, 01:10:27 PM »
Im pretty sure I'm on the Baatezu side of things

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #272 on: December 12, 2011, 01:16:49 PM »
Who was I going to originally be sharing a plane with then?

Yeah, it was you originally, in the water while I had the skies. If you've jumped the fence, though, I guess I've got the layer to myself.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 01:19:52 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Kunoichi

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #273 on: December 12, 2011, 01:22:33 PM »
Pale, I believe, but only if there wound up being too many devils or we wound up with a solely-demon game. ^^; Neither of which is looking to be the case, at the moment...

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: A interest call: 3.5 DnD Unique Devil/Demon Campaign in Hell/Abyss
« Reply #274 on: December 12, 2011, 01:25:44 PM »
Am I the only demon, then (or obyrith, as is the case now)?