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Author Topic: [Interest Check] Bleach d20  (Read 4855 times)

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Offline Jefepato

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2008, 01:50:38 PM »
I thought the Quincys just got hunted down due to having far less fighters in total, not because they were necessarily worse. 

Besides, even if they are, it's kinda problematic for a game to have some characters be straight-up better than others at the same level.  If Quincys are supposed to be weaker, it makes better sense to say "Quincys are, on average, lower-level than shinigami" rather than actually having the class be weaker.

Offline Serenity Vixen

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2008, 01:56:27 PM »
It really shouldn't matter overall anyway, since any character should be an exceptional version of whatever race/class they are anyway, a player-run Quincy should be as strong as a Shimigami...

Well, in my opinion...

even if the race was generally weaker, just like in the show

Offline Hunter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2008, 02:48:41 PM »
Hm...I need to read through the rules more before deciding on a character.  Augmenters and Materializers don't seem to have HD or skills listed for the classes...

Also, is it just me, or do Quincys kinda suck compared to shinigami?

It's not you.  Everything except a Hollow sucks compared to a shinigami.

Hollows seem to be a template (like half-dragon, etc).  Any perceived power issues can easily be corrected by uping the hit dice that they have.  (Like turning a quincy into a d12, for example.)

I've got the numbers crunched out (I'll type him up soon) and I'm waiting for the atmosphere.  :D
« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 02:49:55 PM by Hunter »

Offline Jefepato

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2008, 02:54:46 PM »
What kind of character are you making, Hunter (and whoever else is in for the mid-level game)?

Offline Hunter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2008, 06:12:54 PM »
What kind of character are you making, Hunter (and whoever else is in for the mid-level game)?

Spellcasting Shinigami.

Offline Jefepato

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2008, 06:30:55 PM »
Hm.  I may go for a warrior shinigami then, though the huge amount of skills the expert has are tempting.

Offline Hunter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2008, 06:34:14 PM »
I noticed that.  But I passed in favor of a more balanced build.  *eyes SV*  I'll write something up soon, I hope we actually get this one going.

Offline Serenity Vixen

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2008, 06:35:37 PM »
I have no idea what I want to play, and I am really bad at making characters *Sigh*

Offline Jefepato

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2008, 06:40:12 PM »
Once you decide what to play, I can help you make the character if need be.

Offline Serenity Vixen

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2008, 06:42:17 PM »
Maybe I will play the expert, just to be different :P

although I usually like to play a sorceress

Offline JeramiahhTopic starter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2008, 10:38:35 PM »
Yeah... *looks over the rules again* That is a good point... the shinigami have a fairly significant advantage over almost everyone else. And, yeah, the spiritually awakened humans aren't finished, yet... the whole thing's still a work in progress. Actually, I think the last edition of it I DL'd didn't even have them. Or maybe I'm crazy and missed it.

I don't want to mess with any of the rules, as written, to avoid confusing people further, so I'd rather give it a playtest, first, then start fiddling with things that need fiddling with. Remember, for those that follow the series, the characters *started* around 8th level, judging form their powers, and have only grown stronger. At the current anime arc, they're all 14th-16th level. Most captains aren't much above 14, if at all.

Of course, what edges they have stat wise can be fairly easily compensated for; remember, teaming up on an enemy is mean, and your enemies will always be appropriate for their victim. =P The overpowered shinigami fights a Hollow, it'll be tougher than if the Quincy gives a go at it... in theory, anyway.

Offline Ryvaken

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2008, 12:54:55 AM »
Dude, I want in. I'm reading the rules and I'll get back to you with the details, but I want in.

And I have a variety of ideas in my head. Half are Quincy because I really, really like bows.

Offline JeramiahhTopic starter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2008, 01:19:13 AM »
Hehehe... always open to more! And, while I haven't read the manga, uhh... isn't she supposed to be, like, 6? Or do they do something like Midna at the end of the last Zelda game, with a midget under an eeeevil magic spell, suddenly becoming the hot girl? Either way, ewww, unless it's got a REALLY good explanation.

Offline JeramiahhTopic starter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2008, 01:28:19 AM »
Nah. I figure they'll get there soon enough. Soon enough, potentially, being months away. I'm working on the manga, bit by bit... but the site I get it from is awful. =P

Offline Ryvaken

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2008, 01:48:29 AM »
Try http://www.maximum7.net/?page=member/projects&action=view&id=1174159024
It's worked well for me. And yes, Nell is extremely hot.

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Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2008, 01:55:46 AM »
So are we doing both the low level game and the mid level? 

Offline JeramiahhTopic starter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2008, 01:57:40 AM »
Ahh, the same question plaguing me for days.

At the moment? I don't know. I would *like* to only run a single game, although running two in not out of the question. I'd like to see what characters I actually get, first, before declaring one way or the other; I wouldn't like to declare one game, and find I only have one person who'll actually play it, and I hate turning people away.

Offline Ryvaken

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2008, 03:07:41 AM »
I'm building a Quincy and...well...I have two choices. Put everything into my bow and die horribly, or just die horribly. This is insanely poorly conceived. The hitdie needs to be boosted a level, the bow needs constant bonuses rather than transient ones, the full-round charge action should do more than simply double the results of a move action, all the numbers need a boost, the web type bow needs to be brought down to multishot, the Crossbow needs a penalty that's actually meaningful (rather than simply ruining the feel by being a crossbow), and the attack bonus needs to be kicked up to the good progression. And those are just to make it VIABLE.

Offline JeramiahhTopic starter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2008, 03:17:13 AM »
Hehe... yeah, I didn't design the system, it's player-designed, so I *know* there are going to be balance issues. And, yes, the Quincy, Augmented Human, and Shinigami class will share a lot of the same abilities, because they're mutually exclusive; a Quincy is a special type of Augmented Human, but you must be born into it... and Shinigami aren't human, by definition, they're souls. (Although Ichigo is an exception. A very, very big exception.) In fact, the Augmented human is probably based off the Shinigami, but, since they can't access certain abilities, like shunpo, they need other things, in place.

The other thing about the shinigami; they're incredibly easy to customize. In the source material, most shinigami share only a few basic traits; most of their abilities and skills are unique to them, and bound to their sword. This is reflected in the insane number of feats they gain, as they progress. The sample characters, a second document, in the thread this is found in, shows how the system can be used to create some of the characters from the show, and quite accurately. It's also, really, not intended to be perfectly balanced; shinigami are to augmented humans and Quincy what wizards are to sorcerers... highly trained and skilled, as opposed to guys who just discovered their abilities by luck, or natural aptitude.

I'd *love* to run it in another system, except there's one problem; I don't know any systems besides d20, nor do I have a convenient rules conversion on hand for another system I don't know. =P

In short, you're not supposed to multi-class, only take a prestige class... and even then, the requirements are extremely restrictive, to the point of, "Only if the DM wants you to have it."

EDIT: Yeah, I agree... they really do get the short end of the stick. I'd say they were more fair, if their weapon did more damage than anyone... but it actually does very little, as much as the spellcaster shinigami's weapon. Their one advantage is the series is mobility; Ishida is routinely shown dodging, constantly... but the charge system seems to shoot that in the foot. I think they were designed earlier in the process, and haven't been revamped, yet, leading them to be in the vastly underpowered stage, right now. I'll have to do some thinking on ways to eliminate that charge system, yet still keep their flavor... maybe down to "Uses per day/encounter/at will" on their abilities.

Offline Ryvaken

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2008, 03:29:11 AM »
I have ideas on that. Specific changes, not generalities.

First, give them a bonus feat progression. Archers burn a lot of feats.
Second, boost that hitdie to AT LEAST d8 and chuck out the Human Body thing. Ishida currently has several bones and organs splattered in the latest chapters and he's no worse off than Renji.
Third, give them all the charging abilities at level 1, including the one that increases their supply every turn. This can happen inside or outside of combat, so most likely they'll always start an encounter at full rather than empty.
Fourth, lose the concentration checks. It's not even very well defined.
Fifth, the whip and crossbow types are overpowered relative to the others. Lose them. Give the Whip's ability to perform AoOs to the Bow Attributes. Additionally the Soul Synthesized type is utterly pointless.
Sixth, increase them to a full attack progression and give their bows a constant enhancement bonus equal to half (round down minimum zero) the column A value.
Seventh, bump the damage, range, and critical values of the bow to Composite Longbow. Allow bonus damage based on a mental stat rather than Strength. I suggest Charisma.
Eighth, choose a stat to make the preq for Quincy feats that have an ability preq. I suggest Charisma.

Offline JeramiahhTopic starter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2008, 03:39:59 AM »
I said that I acknowledge there are balance issues with the player made material, yes, but I didn't say I want it to be unbalanced for the players. I understand the balance issues, and I will work with people to correct them. At the same time, for all we know, it's entirely possible that characters are closer to balanced than we think; maybe the Quincy's ability to fight at range, while the Shinigami need to be in melee is a huge asset in a lot of fights? I don't know, I haven't tested it yet.

And I've seen plenty of parties where the players aren't balanced for combat ability; have you ever played a bard? I have. And, despite the fact that the rest of the party was combat monsters, I still had plenty of valuable things I added, and enjoyed myself. On a side note, the game is not solely combat focused. In the series itself, despite being an action anime, each character engages in remarkably few fights. In the first major arc, the hero, despite, effectively, fighting the entire opposing force, for the most part alone, only engages five opponents. A lot of the time was spent avoiding fights, talking their way through things, tracking down objectives, and supporting one another, in what ways they could. Don't assume that, just because something isn't a combat monster, it isn't viable.

EDIT: I agree with a lot of those proposed change, Ryv... I actually think I want to eliminate the whole charge system, since it's overly complicated, and interferes with movement. Bow damage progression also needs a LARGE boost; it should be at least equal, if not surpassing, the Warrior Shinigami's. Ishida's bow, at the beginning of the series, was easily equal in power to Ichigo's sword. I don't agree with the bows performing AoOs... but I'll have to run some numbers. I just haven't had time, yet. Last thing I want to do is make any change I'll regret later... I did that in one campaign, and the player ran with it like a dog with a bone.

Offline Ryvaken

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2008, 03:52:54 AM »
Oh also, as shown in chapter 259, Seele schnider used as arrows are clearly recoverable. While it's atypical for D&D to consider 'magic' ammo as reusable, typical D&D assumes that it's relatively simple to restock. Not so with the case of a Quincy's arsenal. Unless they can be built with the Craft skill.

I don't think the system is particularly complicated, it just needs to be streamlined. Making charges gained reflexively rather than consciously, and giving Quincy viable standard weapons, makes the points similar to how Kido works, except replenishing faster and having a much lower cap. Actually, that cap needs to be, like, doubled to make a lot of their high level abilities viable. Hirenkyaku, for example, burns over half the Quincy's max to keep up with Shunpo on the first use.

Offline Hunter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2008, 04:13:41 AM »
The rules as written seem to be designed for play as a shinigami, and a warrior one at that.  Warrior Shinigami = Fighter, Expert Shinigami = Rogue, Spellcasting Shinigami = Sorcerer.  I've designed a Spellcasting Shinigami but I'm giving serious thought to scrapping him in favor of someone who can actually handle a fight.

Are we going with a mixed or non-mixed party?  We really either need to be all Shinigami or none of us.  Just my thoughts.

Offline Ryvaken

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2008, 04:20:10 AM »
Do we? Do we really? The animosity between Quincy and Shinigami is far diminished since the golden era of the quincy. Uryu's original hatred was a personal matter. His father's animosity stems from the same source as his distaste for his own Quincy powers. His grandfather held no animosity. As for the Shinigami, other than their arrogance only Mayuri showed particular attention either way towards Quincy.

Offline Hunter

Re: [Interest Check] Bleach d20
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2008, 04:35:43 AM »
Do we? Do we really? The animosity between Quincy and Shinigami is far diminished since the golden era of the quincy. Uryu's original hatred was a personal matter. His father's animosity stems from the same source as his distaste for his own Quincy powers. His grandfather held no animosity. As for the Shinigami, other than their arrogance only Mayuri showed particular attention either way towards Quincy.

*gnaws on his liver*  From an rp perspective, no.  From a party balance persective.....