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Author Topic: Should teen tweeter apologize?  (Read 3840 times)

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Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2011, 07:09:30 PM »
While you've every right to set your hiring standards, BM, this sort of comment unnerves me, because it sounds very much like the way people with criminal records are treated in the professional world. Far too often, simply having any sort of criminal history, no matter how minor, is an automatic rejection on a job application. That's a topic that deserves its own thread,  but my point is that speaking out, no matter how rudely or crudely or disrespectfully, should never be a criminal act, socially or legally.

It isn't the speaking out that's in question.  It's the fact that she's a loose cannon with a now proven record of a lack of self-control and any organization that handles sensitive material or has a public face to protect shies away from people they can't trust to act in the best interests of the the company/group/organization.

The contempt she showed for an elected official and doing it in a public forum could easily translate to a boss or a company.  She did nothing to show respect of any kind and if at 18 she is to be considered an adult with all the rights and privileges of an adult then she needs to accept the responsibilities too.  I feel bad for her but not bad enough to want her sort working for me.  Actually, a criminal record that could be discussed would be more acceptable that what she's done. 

It's also common practice for companies to Google prospective employees and do social media searches along with criminal records searches when hiring for certain types of jobs or levels of exposure to clients.  I know of a religious organization who found out the hard way that the person they hired to manage their fund raising had an online site for prostituting herself.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2011, 08:49:51 PM »
  I know of a religious organization who found out the hard way that the person they hired to manage their fund raising had an online site for prostituting herself.
...That had to be embarrassing, for everyone involved.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2011, 09:26:17 PM »
Every prospective employer who uses Google to search applicants for jobs will find it as will any professional organization and school she applies to.  Forever.  Forever!  FOREVER!  Until the internet dies.

I would never hire her and neither would anyone in charge at my company.


 Are you serious?  Goddess I hope not...
 
 Basing a hiring on what people say (and isn't even threatening or such) in tweets and such to friends would stop you from hiring her? Really? She didn't do anything criminal. nothing more than an off-hand comment that nearly everyone makes. A little lie. It was nothing big and truthfully, I would expect someone her age, clear up to 21, to say something like that.

 If you're going of petty criteria like that, better fire yourself. I don't think there is probably a person alive that hasn't said something like that before. 

Offline Torch

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2011, 09:40:22 PM »

 Are you serious?  Goddess I hope not...
 
 Basing a hiring on what people say (and isn't even threatening or such) in tweets and such to friends would stop you from hiring her? Really? She didn't do anything criminal. nothing more than an off-hand comment that nearly everyone makes. A little lie. It was nothing big and truthfully, I would expect someone her age, clear up to 21, to say something like that.

 If you're going of petty criteria like that, better fire yourself. I don't think there is probably a person alive that hasn't said something like that before.

We've all said things we shouldn't have at one time or another.

The difference is, most of the things we say aren't recorded for posterity. This is the point BeMi is trying to make.

Once something hits the intarwebz, it cannot be erased. Ever.

The bell cannot be unrung. Ever.

This is what young people do not understand about social media sites. There is no Shift/Alt/Delete.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2011, 11:45:40 PM »
I think my stance on this is…

She’s 18. In a time where it is common to voice your opinions on mediums that reach out to millions of people in a manner that the older generation would not do.

Do I think she needs to learn the lesson about how she voices her opinion? Most definitely. Do I think she needs to apologize? Hell no. Do I think she needs to have people holding it over her head forever and ever amen? No.

She’s a kid. She made a mistake. We all make mistakes and to hold it over her head for the rest of her life is just flat wrong. Kind of reminds me of that old adage “people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.” Not a one of us is perfect so who are we to judge a childish action made by a childish teenager? She’ll grow up, she’ll learn to temper what she says online. If she doesn’t, then you penalize her.

Offline Zeitgeist

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2011, 12:15:50 AM »
Let me add my (conservative) voice to those that say she should not apologize for voicing her opinion. One might wish she did it a bit more eloquently perhaps, but nevertheless it is free speech. The only thing worse would be to offer up an insincere apology.

And in truth, they lost a possible opportunity to win her over, contact the young woman directly after discovering the tweet, and ask how she thinks the Brownback administration might do better in the future. Rather than reacting the way they did.

Offline Wajin

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2011, 02:29:01 AM »
Why would she need to apologize? In my opinion it's just about the Gov. wanting to look all big and important.... I say screw him and don't write the friggin' letter

Offline Brandon

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2011, 03:14:28 AM »
http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/27/3289038/teen-tweeter-wont-apologize-to.html

Personally, I fail to see why a legal adult needs to apologize for expressing her political beliefs in a non-disruptive way.  She has no reason to be sorry.  It's a shame politicians and school administrators have enough time to browbeat young people's freedom of expression and instead turn that energy into enlivening political debate and addressing the issues students like her want.

I dont see why an apology is needed but I can see why one is desired.

Heres the thing Im seeing as I watch our culture change. Apologies are becoming more of a device to get out of trouble then to admit genuine remorse. This is where my conservative side comes in and says keeping an apology as a genuine sign of remorse is the way to go. By demanding insincere apologies we ultimately devalue what an apology really is

I also see this idea used in parenting and when I see an adult disciplining their child and sa something like "Say your sorry" I just feel disgusted that sorry and apologies have become this get out of trouble act rather then a meaningful act of the human will.

ANyway, if they do try to punish her she has grounds of a lawsuit against the school and possibly the governor as well if he uses his power to have her punished for her comments.

Offline Caela

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2011, 08:09:06 AM »
I dont see why an apology is needed but I can see why one is desired.

Heres the thing Im seeing as I watch our culture change. Apologies are becoming more of a device to get out of trouble then to admit genuine remorse. This is where my conservative side comes in and says keeping an apology as a genuine sign of remorse is the way to go. By demanding insincere apologies we ultimately devalue what an apology really is

I also see this idea used in parenting and when I see an adult disciplining their child and sa something like "Say your sorry" I just feel disgusted that sorry and apologies have become this get out of trouble act rather then a meaningful act of the human will.

ANyway, if they do try to punish her she has grounds of a lawsuit against the school and possibly the governor as well if he uses his power to have her punished for her comments.

I agree that no apology (especially an insincere one) is needed and that an apology shouldn't be a "get out of jail free" card. I don't quite see the correlation though between this and teaching small children to apologize. I make my daughter apologize to people if she does something wrong but it doesn't get her out of trouble for the actions committed. Small children have to be taught to apologize. If I didn't make her say sorry (at least now while she's little) how else would she learn to do it? Kids don't learn by osmosis, they learn by being taught. I also make sure that when I do something wrong, even if accidental, she sees me apologizing.

It's all part of teaching them manners.

In the instance of an 18 year old shooting her mouth off, I think the biggest problem is that teenagers just don't get how very PUBLIC their FB, tweets, etc. really are. They think they are saying something to their friends and suddenly there is this feeding frenzy over something they considered inconsequential. Hopefully this will teach her to be more mindful of what she puts out there for other people to read and notice. If I were a perspective employer, especially years from now, I might look at this incident and then look to see if there have been any similar incidents since then. If not then it would be clear that she'd learned her lessons and someone who can learn from their errors and improve their behaviours, or how they represent themselves, should be someone worth considering for a job. If more of the same was found to continue over time, then certainly I would agree that she wouldn't be likely to be the type of person you'd want representing the public face of a company to clients.

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2011, 08:34:23 AM »
The little Oni has this thing (I'm not sure where she learned it) where she'll 'machine-gun' an apology:  'I'msorryI'msorryI'msorryI'msorry!'  We've actually been working on getting past the words and getting her to understand the 'why' of an apology.  Why should one be sorry about running through the neighbor's flowers?  Running through the flowers squishes them, and makes them look yucky.  Mr(s). Neighbor did a lot of work to make the flowers look pretty.  That way, the 'I'm sorry' is more genuine instead of something Mommy (or Daddy) makes her say.

Offline Torch

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2011, 09:09:39 AM »
The little Oni has this thing (I'm not sure where she learned it) where she'll 'machine-gun' an apology:  'I'msorryI'msorryI'msorryI'msorry!'  We've actually been working on getting past the words and getting her to understand the 'why' of an apology. 

Yeah, we've had that around here, too.

I call it the "You aren't sorry you did something wrong, you're sorry you got caught" apology. And then we discuss a sincere apology and why it needs to be given.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2011, 09:31:44 AM »
Some of my friends with small children have developed a system where after the time out is over they ask the child if they know why they were giving the time out and then they discuss how the child feels.  The next step is to ask how the child thinks the other person feels and quite often that is followed by a totally voluntary apology or one following a simple prompt.  These kids apologize to each other when playing if one does something that upsets or hurts another and they kids are also comfortable expressing displeasure with each other without hitting or retaliating - most of the time.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2011, 10:38:41 AM »
We've all said things we shouldn't have at one time or another.

The difference is, most of the things we say aren't recorded for posterity. This is the point BeMi is trying to make.

Once something hits the intarwebz, it cannot be erased. Ever.

The bell cannot be unrung. Ever.

This is what young people do not understand about social media sites. There is no Shift/Alt/Delete.

 I can understand that, but still, to base a hiring on something as petty as that? It was an off hand comment by a young woman. It shouldn't be taken seriously. Now if she'd said she wished she had shot/stab/kill him if she'd been able to stand in front of him, that's something completely different. Was what she did petty? Yes, but the youth do a lot of petty things because they are young. It's certainly not worthy of using as a decision to not hire someone.

 That was my issue with that BiMi said.

 I do agree that a lot of people don't realize the sheer openness of the internet. That once you post something there, it's pretty much there forever.  That's one reason I don't tweet or have a facebook page or anything like that. I like my privacy and I know on social sites like there, there is none.

Offline Torch

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2011, 10:52:57 AM »
  I do agree that a lot of people don't realize the sheer openness of the internet. That once you post something there, it's pretty much there forever.  That's one reason I don't tweet or have a facebook page or anything like that. I like my privacy and I know on social sites like there, there is none.

I agree. I don't use Twitter or FB either, for the exact same reason.

My older daughter has a FB page and I check it regularly (I know the password) to keep tabs on her and her friends.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2011, 11:48:04 AM »
I can understand that, but still, to base a hiring on something as petty as that? It was an off hand comment by a young woman. It shouldn't be taken seriously. Now if she'd said she wished she had shot/stab/kill him if she'd been able to stand in front of him, that's something completely different. Was what she did petty? Yes, but the youth do a lot of petty things because they are young. It's certainly not worthy of using as a decision to not hire someone.

 That was my issue with that BiMi said.

 I do agree that a lot of people don't realize the sheer openness of the internet. That once you post something there, it's pretty much there forever.  That's one reason I don't tweet or have a facebook page or anything like that. I like my privacy and I know on social sites like there, there is none.

I'm not saying it to be mean.  I'm saying it because that is real life hitting people in the face.

Social media today is taking the place of what used to be the permanent record in school.  A single infraction can ruin a person's chances of getting all they want out of life.  When a limited number of openings are available and there are more good candidates than enough I don't want to waste time on someone who makes that sort of ill-considered remark about a public figure, Tweets about it and lies, then acts all "too bad, so sad."  Maybe she'll grow up and maybe she won't. 

Do I want her identity as that person to be the focus of client meetings, presentations and sales calls?  NO!  Do I want to have to worry every time she opens her mouth?  NO!  Do I need a disruptive influence in my workplace and among the people I'm responsible for motivating?  NO!  When our deprtments merged a year go I inherited staff from the other department.  Several were young women who have since left because they weren't promoted.  They showed up late at least once a week, called off sick 2-3 days a month, disrespected the break and lunch schedules and talked about fellow workers behind their back.  They were rude and disrespectful to clients, as well.  When the case was being made to deny promotion HR Googled them.  One man refused to handle the files because he said their facebook pages looked like porn.  That wasn't held against them and neither were the remarks they made on their pages about co-workers and bosses, myself included.  What we did take exception to were the remarks they made about clients and their companies. 

I literally don't care what type of person Ms. Sullivan might turn out to be.  I don't have the time or desire to put up with worrying about what she'll do next and frankly quite a few companies and employers think that way.  They would rather have people they can count on.

If that's a hard pill to swallow I can't do anything about that.  You either act like an adult or you take your lumps.  She made a choice.  Now she has to live with it.  Also, it would have all blown over much more quickly if whoever tipped it to the media about the apology and made a big deal out of it had kept their mouth shut.  They did her no favors either.

Their 15 minutes of fame can very well translate into a long term smudge on their record.

Offline Will

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2011, 12:49:33 PM »
A Facebook page is constantly updated; what is said there is current and relevant to the applicant/employee's character.  It's not at all the same as denying them a job or promotion based on something they tweeted when they were 18.

Offline Caela

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2011, 04:27:54 PM »
The little Oni has this thing (I'm not sure where she learned it) where she'll 'machine-gun' an apology:  'I'msorryI'msorryI'msorryI'msorry!'  We've actually been working on getting past the words and getting her to understand the 'why' of an apology.  Why should one be sorry about running through the neighbor's flowers?  Running through the flowers squishes them, and makes them look yucky.  Mr(s). Neighbor did a lot of work to make the flowers look pretty.  That way, the 'I'm sorry' is more genuine instead of something Mommy (or Daddy) makes her say.

Mine hasn't started the machine gun apologies yet. She has started automatically saying it when she does something wrong, thinking it will get her out of trouble. I thank her for apologizing (if it's me she's saying sorry to) and then she still gets her punishment for whatever she did wrong. When her time out is done we talk about why what she did was wrong, and how she would feel if the same thing was done to her. This, usually, elicits a much more sincere apology, without any prompting, and then she gets hugs and we move on.

If she really doesn't feel she did something wrong, you won't get her to say it no matter how much trouble she's in though. Example, one of the girls at her daycare pulled her hair and wouldn't let go, so she turned her head and bit the girl...hard. We tried to get them to apologize to each other since they were both wrong but she just dug in her heels and said, "But SHE hurt me FIRST Mom!"  She got into trouble for biting and we've been reenforcing the rule that if one of the other kids touches her in a mean way she needs to tell C and let them get into trouble instead of her. lol

A Facebook page is constantly updated; what is said there is current and relevant to the applicant/employee's character.  It's not at all the same as denying them a job or promotion based on something they tweeted when they were 18.

Except that this IS who she is right now. Granted in a couple of years I would agree and hope that she has grown up and that employers will look past one stupid tweet when she was younger. Some may not though, and it's on parents to try and make their kids realize that what they put out on the internet is not like a note passed in class. It can't be thrown away or hidden and could have far longer reaching consequences then they think.

I have a FB page and am very careful about what I put on it. I use it mostly to keep in contact with friends and family out of state so it is mostly just updates about the munchkin and general life stuff. IF I put anything on there about work, the worst I let it get is that 3, 12hr shifts in a row is tiring, or that it was a long day and I'm ready to relax. I make sure to NEVER actually say anything negative about my job, patients, management etc, even if I think it at times. I may tell my friend such things privately, or on the phone, but never in a public forum that a new potential Boss could see and have it come back to bite me in the ass!

Offline Zakharra

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2011, 04:36:59 PM »
I'm not saying it to be mean.  I'm saying it because that is real life hitting people in the face.

Social media today is taking the place of what used to be the permanent record in school.  A single infraction can ruin a person's chances of getting all they want out of life.  When a limited number of openings are available and there are more good candidates than enough I don't want to waste time on someone who makes that sort of ill-considered remark about a public figure, Tweets about it and lies, then acts all "too bad, so sad."  Maybe she'll grow up and maybe she won't. 

Do I want her identity as that person to be the focus of client meetings, presentations and sales calls?  NO!  Do I want to have to worry every time she opens her mouth?  NO!  Do I need a disruptive influence in my workplace and among the people I'm responsible for motivating?  NO!  When our deprtments merged a year go I inherited staff from the other department.  Several were young women who have since left because they weren't promoted.  They showed up late at least once a week, called off sick 2-3 days a month, disrespected the break and lunch schedules and talked about fellow workers behind their back.  They were rude and disrespectful to clients, as well.  When the case was being made to deny promotion HR Googled them.  One man refused to handle the files because he said their facebook pages looked like porn.  That wasn't held against them and neither were the remarks they made on their pages about co-workers and bosses, myself included.  What we did take exception to were the remarks they made about clients and their companies. 

I literally don't care what type of person Ms. Sullivan might turn out to be.  I don't have the time or desire to put up with worrying about what she'll do next and frankly quite a few companies and employers think that way.  They would rather have people they can count on.

If that's a hard pill to swallow I can't do anything about that.  You either act like an adult or you take your lumps.  She made a choice.  Now she has to live with it.  Also, it would have all blown over much more quickly if whoever tipped it to the media about the apology and made a big deal out of it had kept their mouth shut.  They did her no favors either.

Their 15 minutes of fame can very well translate into a long term smudge on their record.

 
The problem is though you are basing your hiring off of a petty thing. Almost ALL teenagers are somewhat disrespective of their elders. So what if she lied about saying it to the governor's face. I would list that under 'inconsequential' at the most and leave it at that. She's still a kid. Kids do stuff like that. It certainly shouldn't hurt her chances three, four, five years down the road after she has finished collage.  By that time, any perspective employer should be looking at her grades and any work experience she has. Not some stupid thing she tweeted when she was 18, for the Goddess's sake. If that is the only thing that keeps her from getting a job, your standards are too bloody high.

 If she had a criminal record, that would be something, but a stupid tweet? Please....

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2011, 05:08:34 PM »
A criminal record can be discussed and evaluated.  A criminal record is an issue that has many aspects to it and can be more than a black and white situation.

And since when is the opinion of an employer any less important than her opinion of an elected official?  If she has a right to her opinion then I have the same right.  She chose to express her opinion with a falsehood, on a public forum and using derogatory personal terms and language I find beyond the pale.  I choose to express my opinion by saying she is not the type of person I want in my workplace. 

Immaturity, a lack of respect for authority, lying and laughing about it and expecting to be able to say and do anything you want without facing consequences is not my idea of qualities I want in any employee and the sooner people realize there are consequences to their actions whether they like them or not the better off we'll all be.  As I said earlier, if she had admitted in any way that what she did was inappropriate I'd be looking at her differently. 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 05:09:53 PM by Beguile's Mistress »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2011, 05:18:24 PM »
And what if, 5-6 years down the line, she has since changed her attitudes? That's part of what growing up entails, after all - becoming more mature. Just because 18 is the legal age of adulthood doesn't make everyone worthy of the title 'adult', as we can clearly see here.

She is not the type of person you would want in your workplace now. Is it not unfairly judgmental to prematurely condemn her for the rest of her natural life based on her actions in high school?

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2011, 05:30:27 PM »
First of all, she condemned herself.  She is not beyond redemption but that redemption comes at a price she must want to pay.  To satisfy me she needs to take responsibility for her actions and at least admit that the way she expressed her opinion might have been inappropriate.  An inability to do that will color any future accomplishments she might have.  I've done things in my life that I'm ashamed of and have owned up them, apologized for them and tried to make amends whenever possible. 

It's not impossible for her to do that, too.  She has that power.  The measure of her worth in this instance is not what else she does with her life but what she does to show a sense of maturity and respect about this situation.  Sweeping it under the rug or running away from it by pretending everything is fine doesn't cut it with me.

She feels that apologizing would be insincere.  That tells me that she thinks what she did was right and excusable and justified.  I don't see that at all and I don't see her as being a part of my circle of friends or an employee.  I don't approve of her or her attitude.

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2011, 06:25:33 PM »
She condemned herself? She needs to seek redemption for her words?  She spoke out in a disrespectful way to a state official; she didn't set a church full of children on fire and dance around the ashes.  I think some folks are taking this entirely too strongly than it needs to be taken.  She was disrespectful yes, but the governor's office's own actions speak of just as much dishonesty and disrespect.  Bullying her school into making her issue an apology speaks louder to me than some 18 year old's white lie to her Tumblr followers and her rude opinion on a state official.  There is a big difference between an 18 year old and an experienced adult who has a great deal of public responsibility.

Am I saying that the blame lies entirely outside of her? Not at all. She did this in a way that could have been done a great deal better and a great deal more constructively.  Do I think she should be judged solely by this action and made to "seek redemption" for her remarks? No.  Her entire life and professional reputation is not going to hinge on this single instance.  I think it is being a little extreme here.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 06:28:41 PM by Silverfyre »

Offline Zeitgeist

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2011, 06:26:03 PM »
Forgive me if this angle has been covered already, but was it not the school that demanded the apology? Perhaps it doesn't matter who demanded the apology but the gist of the stories written about this has largely been admonishing the Brownback administration for 'over-reacting'. And maybe they did by calling the school in the first place.

But the way I read it, it was the school principal that demanded an apology.

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Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2011, 06:31:09 PM »
According to the news stories, it was the governor's office that called the school as well as the "Youth in Government' program and demanded that some action be taken, even though the school had no involvement in this situation since the student in question was part of a city-run program that had nothing to do with her representing her school.


Offline Zeitgeist

Re: Should teen tweeter apologize?
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2011, 06:34:03 PM »
According to the news stories, it was the governor's office that called the school as well as the "Youth in Government' program and demanded that some action be taken, even though the school had no involvement in this situation since the student in question was part of a city-run program that had nothing to do with her representing her school.

Then why did the school principal butt in and demand an apology of the girl? Because that's what the reported story says.