Personhood law could outlaw birth control

[Hemingway]

Whenever I read about issues like this, I can't help but wonder what the real motivations of these people are. The U.S. tops abortion statistics, and it should be obvious to anyone with even a rudamentary grasp on reality that the reason for that is not the open and liberal attitude of the American public toward abortions. Countries with far more liberal laws and attitudes have fewer abortions per capita. That doesn't necessarily imply that liberal laws and views lead to fewer abortions, but whatever else it might imply, it certainly does not suggest that more restrictive laws reduce abortions in any way. In other words, anyone who is actually concerned about lives and people should be looking at other options, at better education and access to birth control. It's not exactly rocket surgery.

Now, from that, I think it's fair to assume that the people in question are either a) too stupid to realize they're wrong, b) outright malicious or c) have other motivations.

[Callie Del Noire]

Now, from that, I think it's fair to assume that the people in question are either a) too stupid to realize they're wrong, b) outright malicious or c) have other motivations.

I think it's a bit of A, a LOT of B and a bit of C. Some folks have an Agenda. (not the capitalization) and want to be sure to deprive 'those people' (pick your ethnic, regional, religous and/or income level group) of what they can.

It's a lot of people not thinking things through and pandering to the commited groups they think they might lose.. though for the life of me I don't see how.

Of course the loudest tool gets heeded. A lot of stuff has changed of late (just look at the over turn of the 'Personhood' laws and the total dickslapping some of the anti-union laws got recently) and it's clear that while the majority might be quiet, they aren't completely asleep anymore.

[Torch]

Whenever I read about issues like this, I can't help but wonder what the real motivations of these people are. The U.S. tops abortion statistics,

Err....no.

The world leader in induced legal abortion is China, with approximately 9 million annually.

The number of abortions in the US is about 1 million a year, give or take.

Here's a good page on worldwide abortion stats:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html


Edited to add: It's actually amazing any abortions are performed in the US, considering that 88% of all counties in the US have no abortion providers. In rural areas, that number rises to 97%. The state of South Dakota has exactly one abortion provider for the entire state.

[Hemingway]

Err....no.

The world leader in induced legal abortion is China, with approximately 9 million annually.

The number of abortions in the US is about 1 million a year, give or take.

Here's a good page on worldwide abortion stats:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html


Edited to add: It's actually amazing any abortions are performed in the US, considering that 88% of all counties in the US have no abortion providers. In rural areas, that number rises to 97%. The state of South Dakota has exactly one abortion provider for the entire state.

It was my mistake. I was looking specifically at teen abortions, not for all age groups.

Edit: Here we go. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib_0599.html ( chart D )

The U.S. does rank higher than western Europe - the countries listed, anyway. I stand corrected - but my point still stands.

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

There is a huge stigma attached to abortion no matter what the country. I got taught sex ed in both New Zealand and the UK and in neither of these countries was I told anything about abortion. Heavy on how pregnancy occurs, what STIs you can get and how to put on a condom, but nothing about alternative contraceptives, abortion or the consequences of a teenage pregnancies. Is it any wonder that there were five teen pregnancies at my NZ school in the 5 years I was there? Actually, there were probably more and I just didn't know about them.

My best friend, I love her, but she's a bit... loose and she is completely clueless when it comes to protecting herself for anything. At high school she had two pregnancy scares, and as an adult she's had two STIs. I heard on the radio this morning that there has been a resurgence of syphillis in teenagers in the UK. Syphillis. Seriously...

If organisations really want to minimise abortion (and I emphasise minimise because there will always be situations that cannot be avoided such as rape or simple mechanical failures etc) then sexual education needs to be upped. Kids have no idea how to protect themselves from pregnancy or STIs and this is the biggest issue really.

[Iniquitous]

I agree on sexual education needing to pushed to the forefront, however, I do not believe it should fall all to the schools. I believe the brunt of the weight should fall on the parents. If you have a child then you are committing yourself to raising and educating that child. Part of educating that child is teaching the child about sex and everything that goes with sex.

I did not wait for my kids to start learning about sex, procreation and contraceptives in school. I’ve always been open with them about it and pushed to make sure that they would feel comfortable talking to me about it. I’ve also made sure that they understand the consequences of sex and not protecting themselves. When my son came to me to ask me how old was old enough to have sex, I sat him down and went through medical books and pictures to show him what sexually transmitted diseases look like, what they do to the body and how they can be caught as well as transmitted. I also explained that just because his body was ready for sex did not mean his mind and his emotions were ready. I’ve let them babysit (with me in the house) infants so they could begin to understand what having a child was like. Needless to say, both of my children knew more about sex and contraceptives than their classmates when they had sex ed class.

I think if all parents were as open and honest with their kids it would help, however, as you said there will always be abortions. And it is not the prerogative of everyone else to tell someone what they can and cannot do with their body.

[Avis habilis]

I’ve let them babysit (with me in the house) infants so they could begin to understand what having a child was like.

That right there might be the best method of birth control ever invented. A friend of mine had her kids 14 years apart. Her son said that watching them with an infant was the reason he had always taken extreme precautions.

[Callie Del Noire]

I honestly don't think most parents know enough (or are impartial enough with their kids) to do a good job as sex ed teachers. My mom sat my brother and I down and gave us a frank and scarey lecture on sex and STDs.. but she was a labor and delivery nurse for 20 years and this was JUST after the facts with AIDS/HIV came out. And if I recall it was just after she'd delivered the first HIV positive baby she'd helped deliver. The mother was crying as she gave birth, so scared that her boyfriend had 'killed' her and her baby. (Turned out he had catted around and there were something like six other girls he might have infected)

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

It needs to be a balance. As Callie says, most parents don't know enough themselves to properly talk about sex with their children. Not only that, but it's super awkward. I learnt more from my friends and the internet than I did from school or my parents. Sex doesn't ever enter our vocabulary, even now I'm in my 20s.

[Callie Del Noire]

It needs to be a balance. As Callie says, most parents don't know enough themselves to properly talk about sex with their children. Not only that, but it's super awkward. I learnt more from my friends and the internet than I did from school or my parents. Sex doesn't ever enter our vocabulary, even now I'm in my 20s.

It's not taht I mean to be mean to the average parent, but after my mom's talk and the introduction to STDs I got in the Navy. A very very frank presentation. It's not the sort of thing folks would show their kids. It was very scary and terrifying.

[ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut]

My mum is a nurse and couldn't talk to me about it. She showed me pictures of tar filled lungs, but couldn't do the sex talk and even got uncomfortable when telling me about periods. It's an awkward situation.

[Star Safyre]

Best lesson in birth control I ever got was in school when I was 13.

The teacher was given a brand new means of teaching us: a laserdisk!  She had no idea how to work the thing, so after showing us the first live human birth I'd ever witnessed ("Eww..."), she couldn't find a way to get back to the main menu, so she simply ran the chapter in reverse in slow motion ("GAH!  NO!  Stop!  Oh God, never ever!").  I wonder if any of the girls in that room ever had children.

[Callie Del Noire]

Best lesson in birth control I ever got was in school when I was 13.

The teacher was given a brand new means of teaching us: a laserdisk!  She had no idea how to work the thing, so after showing us the first live human birth I'd ever witnessed ("Eww..."), she couldn't find a way to get back to the main menu, so she simply ran the chapter in reverse in slow motion ("GAH!  NO!  Stop!  Oh God, never ever!").  I wonder if any of the girls in that room ever had children.

Oh good lord.. I nearly sprayed my soda over all my monitors. That was just.. so so so wrong. I can imagine what ssort of fun the teacher got for that. Hell my teacher in history got in all sorts of trouble for showing some of the cleaner images of the Nazi death camps.. (including one old prick who claimed it was alla  damn lie)

[Oniya]

I'd put the coffee down first, thankfully.

I like this method of teaching.  I can see it being really effective in some places.

I'm not sure what's funnier:  The visual imagery (including the students' reactions) or the fact that she was trying to rewind a laser disk.

[Iniquitous]

In all honesty, I had no issues with showing my kids the gross, nasty, disgusting pictures of sexually transmitted diseases. I WANTED them to see it so it stuck in their minds. Considering that for two years I worked in a nursing home and I had to take care of a 40 year old man with syphilis who could no longer take care of himself and was dying - I wanted to drive it home to my kids. Now, I did not require my son to sit and watch a birthing video (he chose to on his own thinking it would be cool) but I did make my daughter. Naturally, her response was “thanks Mumma, I’m never, ever having kids” - a sentiment repeated after spending five hours tending to a teething seven month old baby.

Yes, my mom says I am scarring my kids for showing them ‘disgusting’ things and she thinks I am going ‘overboard’ but I know one thing for fact. Neither of my kids are willing to chance getting diseases now. I also know now that my kids are not going to believe the crap that other kids come up with (if you go sit on a toilet and let a man’s stuff drip out after sex you wont get pregnant - or the one that really had me blinking - if you put a rubber band around the base of a guy’s penis he can’t get off and you won’t get pregnant).

[Torch]

after showing us the first live human birth I'd ever witnessed ("Eww...")

Demon spawn #1 was in the delivery room when I gave birth to demon spawn #2. She was six years old.

To this day she complains that we scarred her for life, but the friend I had taking care of her during the delivery (a neighbor who worked as a NICU nurse) reported that she merely looked over a couple of times and said "Eww, gross", and then went back to her coloring books. 

[Lilias]

also know now that my kids are not going to believe the crap that other kids come up with (if you go sit on a toilet and let a man’s stuff drip out after sex you wont get pregnant - or the one that really had me blinking - if you put a rubber band around the base of a guy’s penis he can’t get off and you won’t get pregnant).

So McGyvering a condom out of a crisp packet bag hasn't reached the other side of the pond yet? No wonder the UK is top of Europe in teen pregnancy...

The Monster and the Spawn are 14 years apart as well, and although she wasn't present at the delivery (she first saw him when he was about 8 hours old), she experienced his care firsthand - they still share a room. 'He's adorable, I'm going to keep him for myself!' - 'Hey, get your own baby!' - 'I'll pass' used to be a frequent conversation between us.

[TheVillain]

>Came in here to raise a little hell.
>Read Thread.
>It's pretty much covered.

Heh.

Thought I do think I should point out that if you read Leviticus Chapters 3 and 27 with Numbers Chapter 5 you find that the Biblethumpers are wrong. They base their entire argument on one verse, biblically speaking. But in those three chapters we see that-

A.) God is not only cool with Abortion but insists that it's Mandatory in some circumstances, most commonly if a married woman is pregnant from cheating on her husband.
B.) God has a preferred method of performing Abortions, which is not pleasant as it's supposed to be a punishment for Adultery as well.
C.) That the traditional Biblical Punishment for doing anything to a pregnant woman that causes her to terminate the pregnancy early is. . .

A Fine. The same god who nuked Sodom and Gomorrah for supposedly having too many homosexuals thought that if you terminate a pregnancy you owed her husband or a male relative some money, whichever was closer.

So why do you suppose these people are defying God's Will in the name of God's Will?

>Used to be a Presbyterian Fundamentalist.

[Oniya]

Actually, homosexuality wasn't the real issue with Sodom and Gomorrah, according to John Boswell's 'Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality'. 

Ezekiel 16:49 - 50, "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good." 

So - pride, possibly gluttony, sloth, and a lack of charity.  'Committed abomination' is rather unspecific, and could be something as off-the-wall as serving shrimp cocktails.  There are other references, all the way through the Gospels, and they focus on pride and inhospitality (which was a very big deal in the Middle East at the time).  It's not until you get into much later books (specifically 2 Peter and Jude) that sex comes into it at all.

>watches way too many weird documentaries, and actually read the whole thing - unlike the 'Thumpers.

[TheVillain]

Right, forgot that part. Now that you mention it though I remember making in argument in my teen bible reading class that taking an anti-homo sex stance from the story was ridiculous as the only time anything sexual is even really mention is hinting at gang rape, regardless of the genders of the people involved.

Stirred a few bits of shit with that one, as you might of guessed.

[Oniya]

I'm the one that freaked out my catechism teacher by putting down the story of 'the woman clothed with the sun' as my favorite part of the Bible.

She claimed she couldn't find that one.

[Iniquitous]

I just have to say this….

I <3 Oniya. She is a font of endless knowledge! I’d claim her so I could mine all the information out of her but I don’t think anyone would let me lol.

[TheVillain]

I know, Revelations is still my favorite book too. Some prime apocalyptic scat beat, man.

[Callie Del Noire]

I'm the one that freaked out my catechism teacher by putting down the story of 'the woman clothed with the sun' as my favorite part of the Bible.

She claimed she couldn't find that one.

Ah Catechism Class.. how I remember you.. taking it in a Church of Ireland church, then going to an Irish Catholic school. Confusing and weird. St. John's Battery Rd. Longford.

It's kind of scary that I can remember the address soooo many years later.

[TheGlyphstone]

Best lesson in birth control I ever got was in school when I was 13.

The teacher was given a brand new means of teaching us: a laserdisk!  She had no idea how to work the thing, so after showing us the first live human birth I'd ever witnessed ("Eww..."), she couldn't find a way to get back to the main menu, so she simply ran the chapter in reverse in slow motion ("GAH!  NO!  Stop!  Oh God, never ever!").  I wonder if any of the girls in that room ever had children.

Huh. They did something almost identical in our High School health class (15-16ish) when teaching Sex Ed, but it was deliberately featured once each year. The 'baby born in reverse' segment was considered the highlight of the entire class, and people looked forward to it.