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Author Topic: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far  (Read 4756 times)

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Offline Haloriel

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Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2011, 08:44:06 AM »
National Identification system?  I'm all for it.  But it could be done better than this.  Then again - lots of things can be done better.  ;)

Offline RubySlippersTopic starter

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2011, 09:38:16 AM »
When they came for the Jews
I did not speak out I was not a Jew ...

It gets longer but this famous poem in forms by Martin Niemöller is the same thing here at some point the government will pick off liberties, pick of all protesting groups until what is left is them doing something using ID you find offensive. When will that be they decide its easier to chip citizens like cattle on the grounds of convenience to the state, will that hit your button of anger. If so will anyone back you up when that day comes?

It sounds nice it helps with certain classes of criminal, it fights illegal immigration and its easier for the government well I'm not concerned if things are easier for them, that is not a good reason to surrender ones liberty. I'm sure Hitler, Stalin and Mao all loved papering everyone and having everyone have to show papers and be documented for police jackboots was a great idea it made things easier. The modern age equivelant could be so much worse. And many will likely figure out its a good idea like the sheeple now.

I pointed out the two major issues what if you can't get an ID and/or opt out of participation as in not allowing documents to be copied for a file somewhere in cyberspace or openly rufusing to use ID at all.

Like I pointed out its just odd for over two centuries things were fine you maybe had to show your basic birth documents but overall you were trusted to be who you are, social security came in and okay its just for social security and secret and look at how that is used now and now they want a national ID card and that was offensive to many so did this Real ID act that is the same thing! When is enough going to be enough?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2011, 09:57:18 AM »
When they came for the Jews
I did not speak out I was not a Jew ...

It gets longer but this famous poem in forms by Martin Niemöller is the same thing here at some point the government will pick off liberties, pick of all protesting groups until what is left is them doing something using ID you find offensive. When will that be they decide its easier to chip citizens like cattle on the grounds of convenience to the state, will that hit your button of anger. If so will anyone back you up when that day comes?

It sounds nice it helps with certain classes of criminal, it fights illegal immigration and its easier for the government well I'm not concerned if things are easier for them, that is not a good reason to surrender ones liberty. I'm sure Hitler, Stalin and Mao all loved papering everyone and having everyone have to show papers and be documented for police jackboots was a great idea it made things easier. The modern age equivelant could be so much worse. And many will likely figure out its a good idea like the sheeple now.

I pointed out the two major issues what if you can't get an ID and/or opt out of participation as in not allowing documents to be copied for a file somewhere in cyberspace or openly rufusing to use ID at all.

Like I pointed out its just odd for over two centuries things were fine you maybe had to show your basic birth documents but overall you were trusted to be who you are, social security came in and okay its just for social security and secret and look at how that is used now and now they want a national ID card and that was offensive to many so did this Real ID act that is the same thing! When is enough going to be enough?

I fail to see how a properly thought out nationaL ID compares to the lead up to the holachaust

Online Oniya

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Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2011, 10:18:52 AM »
I fail to see how a properly thought out nationaL ID compares to the lead up to the holachaust

Does that count as a Godwin?

Offline RubySlippersTopic starter

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2011, 10:44:34 AM »
It simple at what point is a loss of ones self to the government for the cause of safety and ease of their paperwork a bad thing, when they jam a tracking and id chip into you to be able to do anything at all? Its simple its gotten out of hand just look at how they use social security numbers it used to be for vital taxable records to now you need it for everything almost. Once you go this way its the slippery slope until its as pervasive as that or worse.

State ID worked and was fine just the way it was, if criminals are a concern have a database for them while they are on probation and such and remove them when its done in a state. Then check drivers license applicants against that for an example of a case brought up earlier then it would be fine by me due process is served. Not this which is adversely affecting a core group that either can't meet the requirements, opt out of meeting them and in two years I will fit both groups. And its sad for the government I was happy getting a regular state ID under the old rules it required an officer of the state visually verify my documents and hand them back, and under oath sign I gave truthful information. Not this, the second they ask to get my documents to copy for the database they can go to hell assuming I can get them and that is very unlikely.

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Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2011, 10:51:37 AM »
The problem is that the database for criminals would have to be accessible between states - i.e., a national database.  There were numerous cases of people slipping by on fingerprint identifications in the days before AFIS was nationalized.  Once you have a national database, you have to make sure that each entry has a unique identifier.  Oh hey - that would be a national ID, wouldn't it?

Offline RubySlippersTopic starter

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2011, 11:02:38 AM »
Criminals are not citizens who are disadvantaged or executing their free choice to opt out they had a court hearing, were found guilty of a charge and for the duration of the sentence and probation have to be in this database to be removed when the period is over. If it was kept forever I would have the same equality issues in place that due process and justice are not met.


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Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2011, 11:16:37 AM »
No - but as you can't tell from Day 1 who is going to commit a crime, and since you'd presumably have people entering records in every jurisdiction (ever posted a response and gotten a message that X responses have already been made?) you'd have to have a unique identifier in place before the person was entered into the database, so that you don't accidentally file two people with the same identifier.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2011, 11:25:09 AM »
Criminals are not citizens who are disadvantaged or executing their free choice to opt out they had a court hearing, were found guilty of a charge and for the duration of the sentence and probation have to be in this database to be removed when the period is over. If it was kept forever I would have the same equality issues in place that due process and justice are not met.

So, you'd rather have an insecure system that lets crooks, deadbeat spouses, license revokees and such continue on, rather than work up a system that closes loopholes and can be engineered (with time and thought) to re-enfranchise the homeless and such?

Never mind that some state IDs cand be duplicated with something like 4,000 bucks worth of gear? 


Offline RubySlippersTopic starter

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2011, 04:49:23 PM »
http://youtu.be/u8yoSAiwY18] [url]http://youtu.be/u8yoSAiwY18[/url]

Here is what this is likely to come to tattooing people into a central database the end of the clip would be your average persons reaction - your unscannable!!! Okay not terribly serious but this puts a light on the issue in the movie they could track you by your tattoo even walking in a mall. I for one think this is likely how this will end up in time. Unless we move to stop it now.

As for the above comment the cost of liberty is the acceptance of risks to live in a state (nation) of liberty that you will have some people doing bad things with the freedom you have while most do good things with it.

Sic semper tyrannis! If the government becomes a tyrant and demands obediance to injustice then the government is no longer worthy of support and I have the duty to refuse them. I will simply refuse to get any ID and live as they wish I'm not a violent woman so will choose this as a protest if I must.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2011, 08:05:26 PM »
Okay.. you didn't answer my question and clearly you're feeling strong on this. So, to avoid me blowing my stack.. or saying something that will further annoy/irratate you, I'm bowing out of this discussion.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2011, 08:35:45 PM »
 The problem is Ruby, that one way or another, a national ID system will come into being. It has to. Before the age of computers, it could be ignored or not heavily pushed, but now it's damned near a necessity. Of only to 1, keep track of criminals and citizens, 2 help prevent ID theft, 3, allow ease of movement by citizens around the nation and records if they need to be accessed.

 I can see how it could be abused, but in this case, it's going to have to be tolerated and that chance taken. The best we can hope for is to find ways to keep the politicians and bureaucrats (who would be the more dangerous ones) under control.  It's best for everyone if a system that people can agree on (mostly) is put in place with some form of control, otherwise it will be rammed onto us and we'll have much less control and say on how it's implemented.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2011, 10:00:46 PM »
Quote from: RubySlippers link=topic=121913.msg5548878
x etc

Here is what this is likely to come to tattooing people into a central database the end of the clip would be your average persons reaction - your unscannable!!! Okay not terribly serious but this puts a light on the issue in the movie they could track you by your tattoo even walking in a mall. I for one think this is likely how this will end up in time. Unless we move to stop it now.


Not really. What this kind of centralized crime/offences register (and other registers) would need to start with, in order to work effectively interstatewise, is a preset, unique numeric identifier, unique for every person resident in the nation for more than short-term, whether it's the president or an El Paso cleaning lady, a Puerto Rican job seeker or an institutionalized loonie - as Oniya was on to. Everyone would get a unique number code, shortly after birth or when they enter the U.S.. No tattoo, the number would just serve as a link between different registers where this person might turn up; like the SSN, but more generalized. And it would probably be included on an ID card, next to the name.

Many countries have this kind of thing. You are not required to carry your ID card with you, or to show it to the cops because you have been, let's say, at a late-night bar when the police made an arrest of a few others. Or to state your personal number in a shop, or even if you buy anything online (the number of your visa card is enough).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identification_number
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 05:26:15 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2011, 11:06:02 PM »
I simply don't want the government having any more knowledge about me or control over me than it already does.  Government at all levels here in America has gone way, WAY beyond the bounds the Constitution set for it.  About every third politician and Congressman and whatnot really ought to be wearing an orange jumpsuit.  Either that, or a clown outfit.

Rather than me have to carry a national ID card with my complete personal information...how about Congress balance its own budget and get its own act together before trying to tell me how to live me life?

Offline RubySlippersTopic starter

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2011, 12:24:34 AM »
Okay.. you didn't answer my question and clearly you're feeling strong on this. So, to avoid me blowing my stack.. or saying something that will further annoy/irratate you, I'm bowing out of this discussion.

I thought I did, yes I am for such a system that allows for the odd abuse. Its a simple matter you can have liberty or give that up for security and then you deserve neither. In a free nation you accept that most people will do the right thing and some people will do the wrong thing, and have what fair and equal measures you can have for the criminals and threats.


Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2011, 05:30:14 AM »
I simply don't want the government having any more knowledge about me or control over me than it already does.  Government at all levels here in America has gone way, WAY beyond the bounds the Constitution set for it.  About every third politician and Congressman and whatnot really ought to be wearing an orange jumpsuit.  Either that, or a clown outfit.

Rather than me have to carry a national ID card with my complete personal information...how about Congress balance its own budget and get its own act together before trying to tell me how to live me life?

Fine, but with the current system ("we don't want no number or no registers, and we're only interacting with police on a nationwide level when we feel like it") you're clearly helping the criminals, big and small. All they have to do is to jump to a new state and start again.

Offline RubySlippersTopic starter

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2011, 10:03:02 AM »
What about a Constitutional Defense the 14th Amendment, Clause One states no state can have a law that infringes on the rights to life, liberty and due process it doesn't say if that is implimenting a Federal Law. The REAL ID provisions required my state passing a law and with the Federal government fighting a secondary tier ID, in New York State they had that in the works until Washington came down on them hard to not do so. The state I live in is violating my rights as a citizen to function if I cannot have an ID card - I can't vote, bank, access government and charity services, have a library card, hold employment with an employer, go to school and more. The state is in fact violating my rights as a US citizen and a state citizen by having this law. I may choose not to do some or all of these things but taking away my rights to them is not acceptable at all.

So I have a simple defense if caught using a fake ID and arrested, and I cannot get any ID legally the state forced me to do so by not making ID a citizen with little means can access. That by doing so they left me as a citizen no other choice but to to protect my rights under the state and Federal constitutions by getting one so I can execute my rights and function as a citizen.

No one has even made this case yet and its likely the most powerful.

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Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2011, 10:12:34 AM »
I'm getting the distinct impression that you're not looking for discussion or debate on this matter - you're looking for people to say you're right.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2011, 10:24:13 AM »
 I think you're right Oniya.

 Ruby, you cannot have it both ways. Either there has to be a ID system like what we have now, that allows a LOT of people to slip through the cracks, criminals and such, allowing ID theft on a massive scale, or you have an ID system that can cover almost everyone.  Your example works only on the state level, in that state,. Outside of the state, it's worthless. The US needs some sort of ID system.

 That being said, I understand how such a system could be abused, but realistically, there has to be some sort of ID system put in place nationwide. It's better if we have a say in it now, than later if it's just rammed into place. It should be easy for the poorer people to get an ID, but there should be some actual people involved so hopefully ID theft or something like that happens less.

Quote
So I have a simple defense if caught using a fake ID and arrested, and I cannot get any ID legally the state forced me to do so by not making ID a citizen with little means can access. That by doing so they left me as a citizen no other choice but to to protect my rights under the state and Federal constitutions by getting one so I can execute my rights and function as a citizen.

No one has even made this case yet and its likely the most powerful.

 UUmm.. that would be shot down in court. Because having a fake ID always looks bad (breaking the law) and you're not the one that gets to determine what laws you can and cannot follow. That method of defense, I believe, does very badly in state and federal courts.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2011, 10:34:47 AM »
Fine, but with the current system ("we don't want no number or no registers, and we're only interacting with police on a nationwide level when we feel like it") you're clearly helping the criminals, big and small. All they have to do is to jump to a new state and start again.

Perhaps.

Then again, one could argue this isn't entirely negative.  The American "justice" system makes rehabilitation next to impossible.  Once you are convicted of a crime, you pretty much wear the "criminal" label for life.  Anytime you apply for a job, even many years after you have "paid your debt to society," as that old saying goes, there it is, staring you in the face.  I know someone who did something dumb when he was 19 or so: he boosted a car.  It was partly a crime of passion (revenge on an ex).  Pretty soon he regretted it.  Now that he's in his mid-20s, he certainly wouldn't do it again.  And at no time would he have just walked down a street looking for some stranger's car to steal. 

Nevertheless, every time he applies for a job, there it is: grand theft auto.  And even when he's 40, it will still be there.

I have a lesser ball-and-chain around my ankle.  Nothing illegal, thank God, just a financial meltdown I had from late 2008 into 2010.  Well, thanks to the credit scoring system, I'm basically blacklisted from buying a home in the United States until around the end of this decade.  I'm actually looking into emigrating for that reason.

Sometimes we should let people "jump to a new state and start again."  Beats holding some old shit against them the rest of their days on Earth.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2011, 10:38:35 AM »
That being said, I understand how such a system could be abused, but realistically, there has to be some sort of ID system put in place nationwide. It's better if we have a say in it now, than later if it's just rammed into place. It should be easy for the poorer people to get an ID, but there should be some actual people involved so hopefully ID theft or something like that happens less.

Oh, it will be rammed into place, just like the Patriot Act, Citizens United, the credit scoring system, child support wage garnishments, and every other unconstitutional violation of our civil rights over the past couple decades.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2011, 10:44:27 AM »
Perhaps.

Then again, one could argue this isn't entirely negative.  The American "justice" system makes rehabilitation next to impossible.  Once you are convicted of a crime, you pretty much wear the "criminal" label for life.  Anytime you apply for a job, even many years after you have "paid your debt to society," as that old saying goes, there it is, staring you in the face.  I know someone who did something dumb when he was 19 or so: he boosted a car.  It was partly a crime of passion (revenge on an ex).  Pretty soon he regretted it.  Now that he's in his mid-20s, he certainly wouldn't do it again.  And at no time would he have just walked down a street looking for some stranger's car to steal. 

Nevertheless, every time he applies for a job, there it is: grand theft auto.  And even when he's 40, it will still be there.

I have a lesser ball-and-chain around my ankle.  Nothing illegal, thank God, just a financial meltdown I had from late 2008 into 2010.  Well, thanks to the credit scoring system, I'm basically blacklisted from buying a home in the United States until around the end of this decade.  I'm actually looking into emigrating for that reason.

Sometimes we should let people "jump to a new state and start again."  Beats holding some old shit against them the rest of their days on Earth.

That's a social problem though, not a legal one. Prejudice against ex-cons is a huge problem, but not a fault of the justice system. The incredibly high rate of re-offending criminals due to focus on punishment over rehabilitation is the fault of the system, but that's another issue entirely.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2011, 10:52:28 AM »
That's a social problem though, not a legal one. Prejudice against ex-cons is a huge problem, but not a fault of the justice system. The incredibly high rate of re-offending criminals due to focus on punishment over rehabilitation is the fault of the system, but that's another issue entirely.

Except that it is a legal issue as well as a social one.  Legally, thanks to corporatists and statists, we now have no privacy.  Legally, I can be background checked back to the dawn of time for any Tom, Dick or Harry job I apply for.  Legally, the government and the corporations have all the rights, and I have none.  And a national ID system is just going to make this worse.

Offline RubySlippersTopic starter

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2011, 11:27:11 AM »
I think you're right Oniya.

 Ruby, you cannot have it both ways. Either there has to be a ID system like what we have now, that allows a LOT of people to slip through the cracks, criminals and such, allowing ID theft on a massive scale, or you have an ID system that can cover almost everyone.  Your example works only on the state level, in that state,. Outside of the state, it's worthless. The US needs some sort of ID system.

 That being said, I understand how such a system could be abused, but realistically, there has to be some sort of ID system put in place nationwide. It's better if we have a say in it now, than later if it's just rammed into place. It should be easy for the poorer people to get an ID, but there should be some actual people involved so hopefully ID theft or something like that happens less.

 UUmm.. that would be shot down in court. Because having a fake ID always looks bad (breaking the law) and you're not the one that gets to determine what laws you can and cannot follow. That method of defense, I believe, does very badly in state and federal courts.

The Department of Homeland Security although did allow for both a state use only ID both DL and non-DL AND a Federal use one, that is what gets me. If states did both you would have an ID for use only in states which would serve my needs well and even if it limited travel by air or train which I don't do. And they could have the REAL ID used now which would be valid everywhere with the yellow star. So yes you can have both just my state and most others due to Federal pressure is not doing that but a few states did.

This is why the 14th Amendment arguement works best if the state did both versions one under the old rules many people could get ID for use in the state, therefore the state is violating the rights of people by not having both versions. Like I said it has never been used to attack the law in my state or at the Federal level but since the states is in the wording this would end up being a state issue, my state violating equal protection rights.

As for the so-called loopholes its odd for the modern times lets say 1900 to 2011 police and other managed to catch felons without this, had databases and other means get added to the crime fighting arsenal and you know and I know whatever they come up with it can be forged. So again what is the issue here the law doesn't do anything save put crippling red tape in place for some citizens who are simply oddly placed or poor to destitution from vital citizenship access to the system if they want to access it. Just because this ID is easier on the government doesn't make it acceptable. I did note the biggest issue terrorism like 9/11 was largely a Federal failure to act not a state issue, they were here legally for the most part if I recall that means passports and visas.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Identification in America: Has it Gone to Far
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2011, 11:40:24 AM »
Except that it is a legal issue as well as a social one.  Legally, thanks to corporatists and statists, we now have no privacy.  Legally, I can be background checked back to the dawn of time for any Tom, Dick or Harry job I apply for.  Legally, the government and the corporations have all the rights, and I have none.  And a national ID system is just going to make this worse.

And Legally, there is nothing that says your friend with GTA can't be hired for jobs. It's a social issue that causes prejudice against people with any criminal record.