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Author Topic: Fair and Equal Justice  (Read 6576 times)

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Offline Zeitgeist

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2011, 05:37:09 PM »
No.

I can get in serious shit if I let Elliquiy's servers get compromised. It's my responsibility to keep this site secure. In first-world countries, it is not the rest of the Internet's responsibility to put up with people who don't have the knowhow to maintain and secure a webserver.

As I mentioned, three billion dollars is the life product of several hundred American's lives. You can put a year number on that. But you aren't convincing anyone with any sense that his negligence was less disruptive than the guy who turned himself in.

Roy Brown's story, and his sentencing is indeed troublesome. I'll grant you that. However the graphic as posted (I know that Pumpkin Seeds didn't put the collage together, I've seen it elsewhere), cherry picks two cases to highlight a contrast.

But as we know, the mastermind of the $3B fraud wasn't Paul R. Allen, it was someone else. And that person did receive a appropriate sentence. Thirty years in fact. Twice as much as what Roy Brown received.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/06/30/mortgage-executive-receives-30-year-sentence/

No, the point of the graphic as assembled is meant to chafe our sensibilities on race, and class.  It does this in an irresponsible manner by leaving out key details (see above).

Roy Brown's story, as it stands on its own is indeed troublesome. I suspect because it was a federal crime (bank robbery) he had limited options to plea bargain down. Also, we don't know what if any of his priors were.


Offline LustfulLord2011

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2011, 05:41:18 PM »
See now, in my book, the guy ripping off a hundred bucks would have been sentenced to a couple days of forced labor at a construction site, with his wages to be paid back to the bank. Instead, what we have is a man in jail for years, costing many times the hundred he originally stole to the taxpayers, and the bank is still technically out a hundred bucks. Plus, who knows? Maybe if he did a good job during his days of work, he might even get a job out of the deal, thus giving him the means to support himself.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2011, 05:45:05 PM »
Roy Brown's story, and his sentencing is indeed troublesome. I'll grant you that. However the graphic as posted (I know that Pumpkin Seeds didn't put the collage together, I've seen it elsewhere), cherry picks two cases to highlight a contrast.

But as we know, the mastermind of the $3B fraud wasn't Paul R. Allen, it was someone else. And that person did receive a appropriate sentence. Thirty years in fact. Twice as much as what Roy Brown received.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/06/30/mortgage-executive-receives-30-year-sentence/

No, the point of the graphic as assembled is meant to chafe our sensibilities on race, and class.  It does this in an irresponsible manner by leaving out key details (see above).

Roy Brown's story, as it stands on its own is indeed troublesome. I suspect because it was a federal crime (bank robbery) he had limited options to plea bargain down. Also, we don't know what if any of his priors were.

Dude, do you think 30 years is remotely appropriate either?

Imagine if someone destroyed not only everything you built, but also everything everyone you ever met built. This will probably include a few dozen millionaires.

Everything they've ever made, stolen or destroyed. Everyone you've met.

That's the level of economic disruption this guy caused. Is thirty years justice?

Offline Oniya

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Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2011, 05:50:40 PM »
See now, in my book, the guy ripping off a hundred bucks would have been sentenced to a couple days of forced labor at a construction site, with his wages to be paid back to the bank. Instead, what we have is a man in jail for years, costing many times the hundred he originally stole to the taxpayers, and the bank is still technically out a hundred bucks. Plus, who knows? Maybe if he did a good job during his days of work, he might even get a job out of the deal, thus giving him the means to support himself.

Actually, he brought the $100 back.  So, I agree, 'sentencing' him to some form of occupational training and job placement would benefit all parties.

Offline Zeitgeist

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2011, 05:52:40 PM »
Dude, do you think 30 years is remotely appropriate either?

Imagine if someone destroyed not only everything you built, but also everything everyone you ever met built. This will probably include a few dozen millionaires.

Everything they've ever made, stolen or destroyed. Everyone you've met.

That's the level of economic disruption this guy caused. Is thirty years justice?

I stand behind the gist of my reply. Roy Brown's story is indeed troublesome, but the graphic as presented is misleading. And it's intentionally misleading.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2011, 05:54:35 PM »
I'm with Zam here - while there is injustice all around here in numerous places, justice should be earned by open debate and facts, not intellectual dishonesty and emotion-mongering. The graphic is very much the latter.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #56 on: October 10, 2011, 05:56:21 PM »
Hello, debate.

It seems fairly clear to me that this Brown character did commit a fairly serious crime. I'm not sure if it's 15-years-in-prison serious. It's not really necessary to compare it to the other case, either. I mean, I hate seeing people get off easy because they're wealthy, or because they're politicians, or they're the police, or whatever - and that does happen - but it also highlights some deeper issues. I'm sure some people will question the honesty of his claims, but if he is to believed, then he was essentially driven to crime by sheer desperation.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if ever a crime is justifiable, morally at least, it's in a situation like that. Of course he could have done things besides go into a bank and act like he had a gun, but his legal options were certainly limited. This idea that people can pull themselves up by the bootstraps is ... well, this is what it leads to.

I'm certain it would've cost less to somehow help this guy out than to keep him locked up for 15 years, too.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2011, 06:03:50 PM »
You want to talk inequities. What about the ABUSE of the Sex Offender listings that is going on in the last few years.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/03/sex-offender-databases/

This one is about a guy who kept a minor hostage for a while after a soured drug deal went south. No sexual assault or such simply kept her as a hostage. Other cases of people going on the list for kidnapping (which is a whole different sort of crime..equally dire in my opinion)

Then you are getting more and more cases of MINORS being put on the registery for 'hooking up' like we did as kids. Consensual (that is.. both parties agreed) between two minors. Granted under the law they CAN'T consent, but explain to me how stimgatizing a kid and killing their chances for a normal life for the same sort of experimentation we did as kids is fair. (And some of them were only at '2nd base', so to speak)

Offline LustfulLord2011

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #58 on: October 10, 2011, 06:06:39 PM »
You want to talk inequities. What about the ABUSE of the Sex Offender listings that is going on in the last few years.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/03/sex-offender-databases/

This one is about a guy who kept a minor hostage for a while after a soured drug deal went south. No sexual assault or such simply kept her as a hostage. Other cases of people going on the list for kidnapping (which is a whole different sort of crime..equally dire in my opinion)

Then you are getting more and more cases of MINORS being put on the registery for 'hooking up' like we did as kids. Consensual (that is.. both parties agreed) between two minors. Granted under the law they CAN'T consent, but explain to me how stimgatizing a kid and killing their chances for a normal life for the same sort of experimentation we did as kids is fair. (And some of them were only at '2nd base', so to speak)

Please tell me that last paragraph is just your idea of a sick joke and that this kind of shit isn't really happening. I would feel morally obligated to start picketing and yelling the most obscenely filthy insults I could come up with on the lawns of the morons responsible.

Offline Oniya

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Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #60 on: October 10, 2011, 06:13:45 PM »
Please tell me that last paragraph is just your idea of a sick joke and that this kind of shit isn't really happening. I would feel morally obligated to start picketing and yelling the most obscenely filthy insults I could come up with on the lawns of the morons responsible.

You've honestly never heard of Romeo + Juliet Laws? They're what's intended to fix that sort of thing.

Offline LustfulLord2011

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #61 on: October 10, 2011, 06:14:03 PM »
I would comment on this, but I don't feel I have the self control to keep myself from exploding so savagely they would be forced to ban me from the site. Have a good night, all... That's about as much of our legal system's complete and abject shamefulness as I can take for one night.

Offline Pumpkin SeedsTopic starter

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #62 on: October 10, 2011, 06:15:37 PM »
I am not certain how the article is making use of emotion mongering to drive forward a point.  Maybe the facts of the case are simply unfair and highlighting a flaw in the justice system.  A man that stole 100 dollars received 15 years in prison while a man took part in one of the largest fraud cases in U.S. history received 3 years, not even the maximum mind.  The man that masterminded the fraud received 30 years.  Which means 100 dollars got the homeless man HALF the sentence of the man who stole billions.  The math does not quite work out.  Facts are simple that the man who participated in this crime got a much lighter sentence for something much more damaging than a man who did comparatively little. 

The two articles are from what was printed in a paper from two separate areas.  Someone just stuck them together. 

Offline LustfulLord2011

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2011, 06:16:12 PM »
So at least there is proposed legislation to try to mitigate these abominations. That's good.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2011, 06:20:51 PM »
I am not certain how the article is making use of emotion mongering to drive forward a point.  Maybe the facts of the case are simply unfair and highlighting a flaw in the justice system.  A man that stole 100 dollars received 15 years in prison while a man took part in one of the largest fraud cases in U.S. history received 3 years, not even the maximum mind.  The man that masterminded the fraud received 30 years.  Which means 100 dollars got the homeless man HALF the sentence of the man who stole billions.  The math does not quite work out.  Facts are simple that the man who participated in this crime got a much lighter sentence for something much more damaging than a man who did comparatively little. 

The two articles are from what was printed in a paper from two separate areas.  Someone just stuck them together.

That's what we/I meant. The articles are explanatory and at least full disclosing the facts, fairness aside - the graphic is what's 'emotion-mongering' by deliberately misrepresenting the situation.

So at least there is proposed legislation to try to mitigate these abominations. That's good.

Indeed. And if you do sign off for the night, go to bed with the thought that for any situation, particularly one as pervasive as this one, there is rarely if ever a 'simple fix' - anything that proposes to be so will likely just cause more problems. In the now-thoroughly-picked apart law code you had suggested at the very beginning of this, for example, those R+J teens would be having their naughty bits cut off for fooling around with each other, which I can't see anyone counting as 'fair'.

Offline Pumpkin SeedsTopic starter

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #65 on: October 10, 2011, 06:23:00 PM »
So if you have two articles that disclose the facts in a satisfactory fashion.  Then put those two fact sufficient articles together.  Suddenly they are misleading?  The graphic simple puts the two stories next to each other.

Offline LustfulLord2011

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2011, 06:25:25 PM »
I'd also redefine the whole law that way. Statutory rape is a RIDICULOUS concept in and of itself, at least, outside of certain obvious parameters. When I refer to sexual offenders, I'm not talking about consenting minors who decide to have a romp at prom. I'm talking about genuine rapists and molesters. That said, I understand what you are saying. My purpose was not to try and propose a perfect solution to our legal woes (I'm not even sure I could be convinced that there IS one), but rather, to come up with a diametrically opposed system, and to spark debate on the relative merits/demerits of various alternatives... a goal in which I believe I succeeded. Thank you all, by the way, for remaining respectful even in your disagreement. With such loaded topics (and me purposely proposing loaded solutions to incite discussion), it's easy to let emotions run high.

Offline LustfulLord2011

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2011, 06:28:39 PM »
So if you have two articles that disclose the facts in a satisfactory fashion.  Then put those two fact sufficient articles together.  Suddenly they are misleading?  The graphic simple puts the two stories next to each other.

The reason it becomes misleading is the same reason that a graph becomes misleading if you use any number but "zero" for the apex of the graph. It will still be honest data, but visually creates a contrast that doesn't necessarily exist. HOWEVER, in this instance, I do have to say that I fall pretty firmly on the side of those who think that (depending on your point of view) the homeless man got shafted or the white collar criminal got off too easy. Not for the reason that the white collar criminal's act was greater (I don't, after all, know EXACTLY what his role was, and therefore, what level of the total guilt for the act can be assigned to him), but because 100 dollars is simply not worth 15 years of someone's life in any way, by my estimation. Just my two cents on that.

Offline Jude

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2011, 06:29:57 PM »
The graphic puts the two stories together while omitting pieces of information that mitigate just how much of an abomination of justice this is.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who agrees with those decisions in their entirety by comparison, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who agrees that the truth is as bad as the graphic makes it out to be too.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2011, 06:31:16 PM »
So if you have two articles that disclose the facts in a satisfactory fashion.  Then put those two fact sufficient articles together.  Suddenly they are misleading?  The graphic simple puts the two stories next to each other.

No, it's putting the first few paragraphs of each story, which also tend to be the most summarizing ones which leave out the key details we're highlighting.

 For the CEO, that's two paragraphs of a 17-paragraph article - it's not until about 2/3rds of the way in that you learn what his actual role in the entire scheme was (defense says he was a patsy, prosecutors say he was sticking his head in the sand and ignoring the problems his underlings tried to bring up). For the bank robber, I can't actually find the 'real article', but the snippet doesn't mention stuff like his prior convictions, which would play a big role in said harsh sentencing...ever heard of the 3-strikes laws some states have, for instance?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 06:33:29 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Zeitgeist

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2011, 06:39:37 PM »
So if you have two articles that disclose the facts in a satisfactory fashion.  Then put those two fact sufficient articles together.  Suddenly they are misleading?  The graphic simple puts the two stories next to each other.

With the rather obvious implication of comparing them, and inviting (or rather inciting) the person viewing/reading the representation to draw a conclusion, a predetermined conclusion, a conclusion the originator had already come to.

It wasn't by chance, mistake, or fate that Roy Brown was chosen because he was black, nor the other because he was white, nor that the two were separated by economic class.

Point is, each story stands on it's own. By representing them the way they were, together, the intention is to incite ill feelings between the races and economical classes.

Yes these things already exist with, or without the graphic. But in my opinion it is gratuitous to combine them, and oh so transparent.

Offline Pumpkin SeedsTopic starter

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2011, 06:44:39 PM »
The full page article presented in the post details that Allen tried to weasel out of responsibility for his part in the scheme by stating he was “not really the CEO.”  The article also states that he received “time served” for cooperating with the police.  Honestly the full article when compared to the homeless man’s article seems far worse than the graphic suggests.  The homeless man’s article was actually presented in its entirety.  There is no mention of a previous record in the article nor of him receiving any leniency for his actions.  I suppose we are free to assume in the case of the homeless man, but not in the case of the CEO.  Need to make sure all of Mr. Allen’s facts are presented so everyone can fully understand his side.

Also, people are not free to make the comparison between a crime committed by a black man to one committed by a white?  To my knowledge this discussion has not invoked the race card.  I might also state that you are assuming that Mr. Allen is white from the graphic.  Which is once more a humorous thing to notice.

Offline Brandon

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2011, 06:48:32 PM »
I would like to ask for those who would answer. What is, in your opinion, the appropriate prison sentance for the CEO? Were getting focused on the amount so Im curious how the amount stolen translates into prison time

Offline LustfulLord2011

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2011, 06:50:14 PM »
I would like to ask for those who would answer. What is, in your opinion, the appropriate prison sentance for the CEO? Were getting focused on the amount so Im curious how the amount stolen translates into prison time

First, is there anyone here who took the time to read the whole article and so knows what his role in the crime actually WAS? I wouldn't, myself, feel comfortable passing judgement that way until I had that piece of info, and while I will dig it up myself if I must, I am not going to if someone else already has an answer, LOL.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Fair and Equal Justice
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2011, 06:56:05 PM »
I'm not entirely sure either. Almost all of the articles I can find are copypastes of each other - the only detail different I could determine was that he (the CEO under discussion) pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit bank and wire fraud, and one count of making false statements.


So, at minimum, he knew what was happening (the company selling the same mortgages to multiple sets of investors) to some degree, and either kept his mouth shut or actively lied to investigators sniffing around the mess before it imploded. Since the other article said the scheme was already in progress and underway when he came onboard, it smells more like he didn't want to upset the gravy train rather by whistleblowing, making him an accomplice to conspiracy.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 06:57:11 PM by TheGlyphstone »