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Author Topic: UK Rape laws to change  (Read 2197 times)

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Offline ElviTopic starter

UK Rape laws to change
« on: November 28, 2007, 05:20:41 AM »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7116336.stm

Rape trial change to help victims

Juries in rape trials are to be given information about the way an attack can affect a victim's behaviour - in an attempt to increase conviction rates.

(Related articals on the right hand side make interesting reading too)


I still find it hard to accept that people believe the old 'they were asking for it' type addage.
I have never been raped, I have never been in a situation where I may have been raped, but for hell's sake, that doesn't mean that I can't imagine the terror of it happening.
So......It's sad that these sort of measures even have to be discussed, but it's good that they are....

Offline Sherona

Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2007, 10:04:09 AM »
unfortunatly victimology is often used by defense attorneys. If they can make even one juror (atleast in the US, not sure how it is in other parts but in US the guilty verdict has to be unanimous) believe that the victim actually WANTED or that the accused truly THOUGHT that she wanted what happened to happen then they have done their job.

As long as there are people out there who believe that when a girl dresses in short skirts or halter tops that means she is looking for sex then this argument will still be brought up time and time again.

That said;

I agree that its good to have measures to try and counteract this addage, to try and raise the conviction rates. If jurors can see how this event can change a woman, both emotionally and mentally as well as any physical trauma then I do believe the old addage of "she wanted it" would be effectively counter acted.

Though trying to convince a jury that she truly is suffering from things such as post traumatic stress disorder might be difficult, but I dont think its actually too much of a stretch.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2007, 10:21:26 AM »
short version: It's like some people would believe that a 'burglary' is only when you wear a pin-stripped suit and a black mask. Otherwise it's just 'borrowing without asking'.
Yeah, sad. And often maliciously used by those who commited the crimes.

Offline Avi

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Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2007, 06:45:53 PM »
In today's world, sadly, women are still seen as weaker than men.  This, unfortunately, leads to situations where things like this have to spelled out explicitly.

It's about damn time someone else realized that "Oh, if a woman is raped, threatened, beaten up, et cetera, she might be unsure of herself and what happened."  It's something I've known for years.  Women are people too, and no one has infalible memory, especially in the light of a massive trauma like being raped.  "Blame the Victim" can kiss my ass... 

Offline Sakujo

Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2008, 02:25:40 PM »
This is one place where it'd be good if Kira existed.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2008, 01:37:59 PM »
I read this thing on this super crazy christian forum once, this girl was talking about how abortion is wrong and that rape babies should still be carried to term, that the girls were asking for it, they shouldn't have been dressed the way they were or in that dark ally in the first place. . .Royally pissed me off!

Offline Moondazed

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Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 10:16:35 PM »
God/Allah, save me from your followers.  I don't know where that came from, but it runs through my mind often ;)

Offline kongming

Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2008, 09:56:41 AM »
He called women dress any less concealed 'uncovered meat', to the cheering of his congregation.

Except he was then criticised all over the country for it. The government took time to speak out against him (it helps that John Howard was appealing to the anti-Muslim crowds in general, but it just so happens that this time he was right to speak out against "one of those crazy Arab Muslim ethnic guys that Georgie says we shouldn't like!"), his speech was put in the headlines, with much ridicule and disgust, other members of the faith distanced themselves from him (although it is sad that there were a number who agreed with him) and the Christian religions sighed a breath of relief that someone else was in trouble for once. They even had a chance to effectively say "get with the times, you ignorant, sexist fool." which isn't something they often get to do.

So at least he didn't get away with that. There was more or less condemnation from everyone.

Still... if "wearing short skirts" is asking to be raped, then is "possessing a television" asking to have it stolen? Would "not wearing a bullet-proof vest" really just be a way of asking to be shot? It's really quite stupid, but at least they're slowly figuring these things out.

Offline BlackRose

Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2008, 11:33:09 AM »
Except he was then criticised all over the country for it. The government took time to speak out against him (it helps that John Howard was appealing to the anti-Muslim crowds in general, but it just so happens that this time he was right to speak out against "one of those crazy Arab Muslim ethnic guys that Georgie says we shouldn't like!"), his speech was put in the headlines, with much ridicule and disgust, other members of the faith distanced themselves from him (although it is sad that there were a number who agreed with him) and the Christian religions sighed a breath of relief that someone else was in trouble for once. They even had a chance to effectively say "get with the times, you ignorant, sexist fool." which isn't something they often get to do.

So at least he didn't get away with that. There was more or less condemnation from everyone.

Still... if "wearing short skirts" is asking to be raped, then is "possessing a television" asking to have it stolen? Would "not wearing a bullet-proof vest" really just be a way of asking to be shot? It's really quite stupid, but at least they're slowly figuring these things out.

I don't think that wearing a short skirt is asking to be raped, no more than I think that owning a car is asking to have it stolen.

If you leave the top down on your convertible with the keys in the ignition as you go for a thirty mile hike in the middle of NYC, you are asking to get it stolen.

If a woman goes out to a bar, gets drunk, tells the guy what she wants, he acts on it, takes her back to his place, and in the heat of the moment she decides no, she doesn't want it. The guy should stop. It would be like, coming back to your car while the thief was about to drive away. If, however, she doesn't tell him no, doesn't make any attempt to tell him no, and just thinks no, how was he supposed to know?

I've seen cases of men getting convicted of Rape because of the trauma that a woman was put through because she didn't want to have sex, but never said anything as to that fact. As a guy, and not a mind reader, especially being into the things I am into, if you don't make it explicitly clear to me that you don't want something, usually through the words No, Don't, or Stop (just not all three in that order), How am I supposed to know that isn't what you wanted?

I've personally been accused of rape once. We had set up safe words prior to anything. I thought it was just play in the heat of the moment. Luckily for me, nothing was ever said to the police, just my family, which was hard enough to deal with. Turned out she was just trying to top from the bottom and get beat for making me angry. Instead, she got dropped.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2008, 10:42:01 PM »
There's actually a thought that comes here, don't have sex with drunk chicks.  Sometimes they think that they said no, they're drunk and really they are not in the right mind to make these decissions.  But to be fair, chicks should not go out and get drunk then go home with some guy that she doesn't want to have sex with.  It's a breakdown in communication.

Sorry about your experience with a stupid bitch.

Offline robitusinz

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Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2008, 04:44:58 PM »
There's actually a thought that comes here, don't have sex with drunk chicks.

Pfft, then I'd be single with no kids, and nowhere near as happy as I am now.

The problem with rape is the fact that there's no empirical evidence.  Guy "rapes" girl, girl complains to cops.  What do the cops do?  Rape kit?  Ok...they had sex, sure.  Is there a difference between "sex" and "rape"?

How do you prove it was rape, when I say it was sex?  How do I know the "victim" isn't lying?  You hear plenty of cases of women falsely accusing men of rape.

And so, it's the victim that stands on trial, because there's ALWAYS a doubt about whether or not she's telling the truth.

Of course, when it's sexual battery or assault, it's different...there's a big difference in walking down the street, getting abducted and raped, as opposed to a case where the victim went out on a date with the accused and "one thing lead to another".

Personally, while I read enough to realize that a rape victim needs time and is under stress, etc. (i.e. I'm not stupid enough NOT to sympathize), it'd be very hard to remove reasonable doubt from my mind unless the case is some sort of violent assault.  I'd be a horrible juror on a rape trial....I'd have too much doubt in a Date Rape case, and too little in an assault case.

Offline Sherona

Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2008, 06:39:23 PM »
Pfft, then I'd be single with no kids, and nowhere near as happy as I am now.

The problem with rape is the fact that there's no empirical evidence.  Guy "rapes" girl, girl complains to cops.  What do the cops do?  Rape kit?  Ok...they had sex, sure.  Is there a difference between "sex" and "rape"?

How do you prove it was rape, when I say it was sex?  How do I know the "victim" isn't lying?  You hear plenty of cases of women falsely accusing men of rape.

And so, it's the victim that stands on trial, because there's ALWAYS a doubt about whether or not she's telling the truth.

Of course, when it's sexual battery or assault, it's different...there's a big difference in walking down the street, getting abducted and raped, as opposed to a case where the victim went out on a date with the accused and "one thing lead to another".

Personally, while I read enough to realize that a rape victim needs time and is under stress, etc. (i.e. I'm not stupid enough NOT to sympathize), it'd be very hard to remove reasonable doubt from my mind unless the case is some sort of violent assault.  I'd be a horrible juror on a rape trial....I'd have too much doubt in a Date Rape case, and too little in an assault case.



The rape kit also looks for abrasions and bruising in the vaginal regions that coincide wth forced entry. Yes the guy can then say 'oh it was just rough sex', but most medical examiners can tell the difference between 'rough sex' and abrasions from fighting back...

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2008, 06:52:58 PM »


The rape kit also looks for abrasions and bruising in the vaginal regions that coincide wth forced entry. Yes the guy can then say 'oh it was just rough sex', but most medical examiners can tell the difference between 'rough sex' and abrasions from fighting back...

I was going to say this too but desided against it.

Offline calamity

Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2008, 08:59:11 AM »
There is an important difference between saying no and regret.  I've known a few women who abused the "rape" card because they were embarassed, ashamed, or regretful.  It infuriated me as a woman who wants legitimate protection from rape.  I don't appreciate other women abusing the word and subsequently making others suspicious of what it means for a woman to say "I was raped".

Rape is a horrifying prospect for any species because it denies an organism its mate choice.  Mating rituals (whether they be dancing, flirting, or frogs croaking across a pond) are incredibly important evolutionary tools designed to guide reproduction by separating genetically unfit organisms from genetically fit organisms.  Messing with that is unforgiveable for a lot of reasons.

Rape is serious and rapists should be punished, but I do understand why sometimes, people doubt a "victim".  Short skirts don't mean you're asking for it, but if you actually ask for it and then regret it later, you were not raped, you silly bitch.

/rant

Offline Kyou

Re: UK Rape laws to change
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2008, 09:15:53 AM »
There is an important difference between saying no and regret.  I've known a few women who abused the "rape" card because they were embarassed, ashamed, or regretful.  It infuriated me as a woman who wants legitimate protection from rape.  I don't appreciate other women abusing the word and subsequently making others suspicious of what it means for a woman to say "I was raped".

Rape is a horrifying prospect for any species because it denies an organism its mate choice.  Mating rituals (whether they be dancing, flirting, or frogs croaking across a pond) are incredibly important evolutionary tools designed to guide reproduction by separating genetically unfit organisms from genetically fit organisms.  Messing with that is unforgiveable for a lot of reasons.

Rape is serious and rapists should be punished, but I do understand why sometimes, people doubt a "victim".  Short skirts don't mean you're asking for it, but if you actually ask for it and then regret it later, you were not raped, you silly bitch.

/rant

Right on!

That's the worst part of the whole thing. Chicks who lie about getting raped. I know a girl who went to a party with a bunch of guys, didn't get drunk, but was doing drugs and stuff and giving head to everyone. When everyone else left, she insisted that she stayed. She said they raped her to the police, but I know personally she's just saying that cause she got pregnant after having an orgy with at least 3 other guys. She was bragging all around school how they were going to get in trouble cause she called wolf.

My best friend was raped - actually raped - by a guy while at school, and she was dressed in jeans and a hoodie. The rate of calling rape when it wasn't was so high in areas around where I live that the police wouldn't even look at the case. She was beaten, cut, and so was her private areas. It's so terrible to see people abuse it. And you know what someone is raped, they don't go around going "haaaa I was rapeddddd" they hide it. They isolate themselves, sink into a little shell, become shadows of the people they once were. My best friend committed suicide, and it was only then that it was confirmed she was raped by the police. *cries* She was so ashamed of herself that she didn't want to live anymore! And she could have been saved if stupid bitches didn't run around accusing every guy they sleep with of rape.