You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 04, 2016, 04:37:57 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: What has happened to us?  (Read 10971 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline meikle

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2011, 06:55:12 PM »
I closed it after that. If I was already that pissed in the first few paragraphs I couldn't imagine my temper cooling if I read further.

I closed it at "socialism and tyranny are becoming malignant".

Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2011, 07:14:18 PM »
Should have borrowed the title from Sigmund Freud: "A Conversation with the Wolf-Man"  ::)

Offline Chris BradyTopic starter

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2011, 11:21:41 PM »
Yeah, that's what I thought.  The article sounds too...  Pat, too angry to actually be serious, but he did bring up some interesting points.  I personally know of several women (Two of which I worked for) who have done, or are doing, things this blogger claimed.

Thing is Caela, you're a rarity, most women who get divorces, WILL nail the guy for as much as she can for several reasons.  Often the split is not amicable, so one side will want to screw the other side.  Sadly, custody will be the easiest for the woman to do so.  As is alimony.  (Now that isn't to say that the man can't also screw over his Ex-wife, but from what I've seen it's usually more 'immediate'.  Like moving out and cleaning out the house of objects.)  I had a friend who went through a messy divorce, got to see his son for one weekend of a month, and his ex-wife moved away on him.  And she didn't have to tell him.  So not only does he not know where his little boy is (Whom he had the right to see) he's getting nailed as a 'dead beat' because he doesn't know where to send the alimony.  And her lawyer hit him with a restraining order, to keep him from being able to get the information to be able to both pay and see his son.

Of course, this was just one side, his.  Maybe the ex-wife saw something that we didn't, but from what I saw, that seemed a little unfair.

Another woman was hitting on a former friends of mine, while I was working, and it turned out she was staying with her 'boyfriend' because he was loaded.  As in she and her young daughter were living with the guy.  But that didn't stop her from trying to get into the pants of my friend.  That was a bit much.

Those were the two biggest things that I can see (which means that there's a good chance this sort of behaviour isn't unique) where this crackpot could have gotten his ideas from.  Thing is, they seem rather extreme, no?  And frankly, those are the type of things I'd see on T.V. not on people I knew personally.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2011, 02:11:54 AM »
I probably watch too many court shows, but you'd think that her lawyer would be able to act as an intermediary to get the support check to her, and that would give the guy leverage to petition the judge for some kind of visitation arrangement.

Offline Reagan

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2011, 05:09:19 AM »
@Reagan, Castle is an excellant show! Love him and the tension the writers keep between him and Beckett. I don't see her subordinate detectives as less intelligent then her, but not as driven which is for personal reasons relating to why she became a cop in the first place. They're more laid back and are the comic relief to her seriousness.

I agree with you.  I could just see a guy like the one who wrote that article immediately arguing that Ryan and Esposito were examples of henpecked males in the media.  I don't see them that way but then I'm not a guy and a (hetero chauvinist) male perspective might be different.

Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2011, 05:36:34 AM »
I'd admit that courts are not always impartial versus the parents in a legal feud over custody rights and settlement. In many places, the mother will get the main custody rights almost by default, and there's a good deal of baggage in this from the view that only a woman/only the biological mother is able to care for the kids at home. On the other hand a man is very rarely faulted over the kids he is bringing up and few people will take issue openly and say "you're not making the right kind of serious effort to bring those children up, you are not making it a priority". Women (single mothers) are much more targeted with that kind of talk.

 Then again, all sorts of odd things can happen in court sometimes. I remember reading of how Norman Mailer literally bought over his ex-wife's lawyer in the course of a divorce settlement feud. The legal of course knew a lot of the ex-wife's personal and professional situation, things she had told him and shown him in confidence, people and papers from her past, and went on to lambast her in front of the court as a gold-digger: "she tries to pass herself off as a successful professional, but this woman has no career". Amazingly, the court accepted both the heavy personal slander and the fact that the lawyer changed sides between two sessions (this was in the late seventies: would it have worked today?).

Offline Caela

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2011, 09:43:40 AM »
Thing is Caela, you're a rarity, most women who get divorces, WILL nail the guy for as much as she can for several reasons.  Often the split is not amicable, so one side will want to screw the other side.  Sadly, custody will be the easiest for the woman to do so.  As is alimony.  (Now that isn't to say that the man can't also screw over his Ex-wife, but from what I've seen it's usually more 'immediate'.  Like moving out and cleaning out the house of objects.)  I had a friend who went through a messy divorce, got to see his son for one weekend of a month, and his ex-wife moved away on him.  And she didn't have to tell him.  So not only does he not know where his little boy is (Whom he had the right to see) he's getting nailed as a 'dead beat' because he doesn't know where to send the alimony.  And her lawyer hit him with a restraining order, to keep him from being able to get the information to be able to both pay and see his son.

Actually this is very different from my situation. I wasn't married so there was no divorce to contend with and those are often acrimonious because there are so many other issues around them other than just the children. In my case I got pregnant unexpectedly and he didn't want to be a father. Sort of kills seeing him again since I was going to keep the baby. I got any pertinent medical background from him (luckily he has a very healthy family) and left it at that. When my beautiful daughter was born I didn't put him on the birth certificate and so, from a legal standpoint, she simply doesn't have a father.

Granted I still could have nailed him for child support. Could have gone to court, demanded a DNA test (though he didn't argue when I told him he was the father, some guys would have), and then tried to force him to give me money for her. I just never saw the point in putting myself, and my daughter, through the stress and strain. I have enough money to take care of us so I don't need his and, around here, making him pay would give him rights to MY child and I'm not having that. He made his decision so as far as I'm concerned, she simply doesn't have a father, she has a sperm donor.

Now if he ever decides to show up on my doorstep thinking he's just going to get to play Daddy, he'll find out that I have no problem with getting a lawyer and taking him to court...but that's a whole different can of worms and I don't see it happening lol.

Even in my position though I seem to be a bit of a rarity. Most of the women I talk to look at me like I've sprouted a second head when I say I'm not taking him for everything he's got. I've just always thought that if a woman can say she doesn't want to be a mother, that a man should be able to say he doesn't want to be a father. Now if you're married, or you sign the birth certificate that puts you on the hook legally so you're stuck but barring either of those a man should have just as much right as a woman to say he doesn't want to be a parent. So I've respected that decision on his part and left him alone.

Offline Caela

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2011, 09:44:59 AM »
I'd admit that courts are not always impartial versus the parents in a legal feud over custody rights and settlement. In many places, the mother will get the main custody rights almost by default, and there's a good deal of baggage in this from the view that only a woman/only the biological mother is able to care for the kids at home. On the other hand a man is very rarely faulted over the kids he is bringing up and few people will take issue openly and say "you're not making the right kind of serious effort to bring those children up, you are not making it a priority". Women (single mothers) are much more targeted with that kind of talk.

 Then again, all sorts of odd things can happen in court sometimes. I remember reading of how Norman Mailer literally bought over his ex-wife's lawyer in the course of a divorce settlement feud. The legal of course knew a lot of the ex-wife's personal and professional situation, things she had told him and shown him in confidence, people and papers from her past, and went on to lambast her in front of the court as a gold-digger: "she tries to pass herself off as a successful professional, but this woman has no career". Amazingly, the court accepted both the heavy personal slander and the fact that the lawyer changed sides between two sessions (this was in the late seventies: would it have worked today?).

I don't know if this would work today or not. I would think the lawyer that flipped would be in serious breech of lawyer/client confidentiality and that the harmed party could sue him into the ground for it these days.

Offline Reagan

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2011, 10:02:34 AM »
Granted I still could have nailed him for child support. Could have gone to court, demanded a DNA test (though he didn't argue when I told him he was the father, some guys would have), and then tried to force him to give me money for her. I just never saw the point in putting myself, and my daughter, through the stress and strain. I have enough money to take care of us so I don't need his and, around here, making him pay would give him rights to MY child and I'm not having that. He made his decision so as far as I'm concerned, she simply doesn't have a father, she has a sperm donor.

...a man should have just as much right as a woman to say he doesn't want to be a parent. So I've respected that decision on his part and left him alone.

Do you think you would still feel like that if you didn't have enough money to run your home?  If you were really struggling to make ends meet?  I mean obviously I hope that you would but I think there's a big difference between choosing not to fight for money you don't really need versus making harsh financial sacrifices in pursuit of a man's right not to be a father.

I'm not trying to be judgemental or combative here, I just feel that your circumstances may have shaped your viewpoint.

Offline Caela

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2011, 04:40:08 PM »
Do you think you would still feel like that if you didn't have enough money to run your home?  If you were really struggling to make ends meet?  I mean obviously I hope that you would but I think there's a big difference between choosing not to fight for money you don't really need versus making harsh financial sacrifices in pursuit of a man's right not to be a father.

I'm not trying to be judgemental or combative here, I just feel that your circumstances may have shaped your viewpoint.

Circumstances always shape out viewpoints. I don't know how I would feel if I didn't have enough money to keep my daughter fed. In truth I watched my mom spend a lot of time, and money, trying to make my ex-stepfather make payments he owed and when he finally did, she had to use it to pay the lawyer instead of for us. I'm lucky enough to have a VERY helpful family, if I couldn't make ends meet on my own I could likely have stayed with one of them and gone back to school to improve my situation so I like to think I would still feel the same because I would have help.

I think it's one of the larger double standards in our society that a woman, with almost no input from the man, can decide she doesn't want to be a mother and there's nothing he can do about it, but a man isn't supposed to have that same right. He screwed her so he's on the hook if she chooses to keep it. I personally believe that, unless your married (which already makes you legally responsible), until the birth certificate is signed a man should be able to sign away his rights and walk away.

Offline Reagan

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2011, 05:48:39 PM »
Circumstances always shape out viewpoints. I don't know how I would feel if I didn't have enough money to keep my daughter fed. In truth I watched my mom spend a lot of time, and money, trying to make my ex-stepfather make payments he owed and when he finally did, she had to use it to pay the lawyer instead of for us. I'm lucky enough to have a VERY helpful family, if I couldn't make ends meet on my own I could likely have stayed with one of them and gone back to school to improve my situation so I like to think I would still feel the same because I would have help.

I think it's one of the larger double standards in our society that a woman, with almost no input from the man, can decide she doesn't want to be a mother and there's nothing he can do about it, but a man isn't supposed to have that same right. He screwed her so he's on the hook if she chooses to keep it. I personally believe that, unless your married (which already makes you legally responsible), until the birth certificate is signed a man should be able to sign away his rights and walk away.

I agree with you to a certain extent.  The problem I have with the whole double standard thing is that it requires a guy to be honest about what his intentions were when he went to bed with a woman.  Plenty of unmarried couples plan children only for the father to get cold feet once his girlfriend's lost her figure and he's about to be eyeball deep in nappies.  I think that many men are already feckless enough without giving them the option to sign away all responsibility the moment they get buyer's remorse.  There are plenty of men also, who will do anything to avoid barrier contraception because it detracts from their enjoyment.

Then there's the issue of consent and cases where consent may have been dubious, e.g. following a drunken one night stand when a woman may have been taken advantage of only to wind up pregnant, not to mention victims of rape and/or domestic abuse.  Or where a married man is sleeping with a mistress who believes him to be single.  Teenage girls would pay a high price for a failure of contraception, whereas teenage guys would have no incentive to take responsibility for contraception and use condoms.

Not every woman can have an abortion and live with herself afterwards.  It's against many women's religious beliefs.  Adoption is also a hard choice to make and to see through.

I do of course agree that many women seek to entrap men and that many women believe any sperm donor should be made to haemorrhage cash.  I don't condone that behaviour but neither do I think there are enough honourable men for such a system of signing away rights to work.  You wouldn't have much more than the word of a guy regarding whether a pregnancy was the result of a one night stand, brief fling, longer relationship or whether it was in fact planned.

So I admire your independence and your decision not to burden someone who clearly had no interest in fatherhood but I don't see how it could ever really become legally workable for a guy to sign away parental responsibility on a whim.

I completely understand your need for the father not to have any rights over your daughter but at the same time, I wouldn't want to see a system where once a father signed away his rights there was no way back from that.  There are few enough men with an interest in raising children from previous relationships.  I think there would definitely have to be a process through which he could apply for visitation, on the understanding that he would have to start supporting the child financially.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2011, 05:58:30 PM »
So I admire your independence and your decision not to burden someone who clearly had no interest in fatherhood but I don't see how it could ever really become legally workable for a guy to sign away parental responsibility on a whim.

And yet, with the adoption system, men and women sign away their parental rights, since most are 'closed'.

Offline Reagan

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2011, 06:16:02 PM »
And yet, with the adoption system, men and women sign away their parental rights, since most are 'closed'.

Yes but that's hardly comparable to signing away rights and responsibilities to a child that will then be raised by a single mother, knowing the mother and child will likely experience hardship as a result.

Offline Caela

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2011, 07:25:12 PM »
So I admire your independence and your decision not to burden someone who clearly had no interest in fatherhood but I don't see how it could ever really become legally workable for a guy to sign away parental responsibility on a whim.

I completely understand your need for the father not to have any rights over your daughter but at the same time, I wouldn't want to see a system where once a father signed away his rights there was no way back from that.  There are few enough men with an interest in raising children from previous relationships.  I think there would definitely have to be a process through which he could apply for visitation, on the understanding that he would have to start supporting the child financially.

Snipped your post a bit to bring it down to what I wanted to address.

I personally think that if you sign away your rights (male or female) there shouldn't be a way to come back from that. I know it's harsh but people that try to give away a child and then a few years later suddenly want to be a part of their life tend to do nothing but wreak havoc on that child's life. It's not what they intend but it is the consequence of the action. Children need security and safety and a sense that this is their world, not to have adults coming and going as they please and cocking that up.

I can't speak for anyone else but if my daughter's SD tried to come knocking on my door, I'd be sorely tempted to start calling friend to help me dispose of a body. There is no amount of financial resources that can make up for the fact the had had NO interest in being a part of her life for YEARS. And now suddenly thinks he can play Daddy. Nope, sorry, not in my world. She is nearly and is one of the happiest, most well adjusted children you could hope to meet. She has Uncles and her Papa for male role models and sees them all the time. She recognizes that other kids have Daddy's but is so happy in the way her life is arranged that it hasn't occurred to her yet to ask why she doesn't. She doesn't feel the lack of a father figure in her life in the least and I won't let someone try to come in and disrupt her happy little world without a knock-down, drag-out, over my dead freaking body fight.

Offline Missy

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2011, 07:55:40 PM »
I agree, my "old man" decided to actually take an interest in me after years of not caring and only sending child support when it was convenient for him to do so. I figured he made his choice when he cheated on my mother, repeatedly, failed to take any interest in holding a proper sense of loyalty to the partner whom he chose, then left after a divorce taking with him the tax exemptions for the kid's who he wasn't financially supporting.

Honestly I thought the old man might have been good for the chain gang seeing as he wasn't much good for anything else. In any case while I agree some women are going to be bitches about divorce I think we need to keep a much much much tighter leash on pathetic men who fail to pay the most basic of child support to the children they created.

Though not everyone's experience is quite like mine however.

Offline Caela

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2011, 08:10:46 PM »
I agree, my "old man" decided to actually take an interest in me after years of not caring and only sending child support when it was convenient for him to do so. I figured he made his choice when he cheated on my mother, repeatedly, failed to take any interest in holding a proper sense of loyalty to the partner whom he chose, then left after a divorce taking with him the tax exemptions for the kid's who he wasn't financially supporting.

Honestly I thought the old man might have been good for the chain gang seeing as he wasn't much good for anything else. In any case while I agree some women are going to be bitches about divorce I think we need to keep a much much much tighter leash on pathetic men who fail to pay the most basic of child support to the children they created.

Though not everyone's experience is quite like mine however.

What actually got my own mother her child support (from my brother's dad not mine, mine paid his) was that he finally got a job at a place that garnished his check before he ever got it. I actually wish more businesses did this. It would make it much harder for men who have orders to pay to run away from it if their jobs got the paper work from the courts and yanked it from their checks before they ever saw them.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2011, 09:50:57 PM »
I think it's one of the larger double standards in our society that a woman, with almost no input from the man, can decide she doesn't want to be a mother and there's nothing he can do about it, but a man isn't supposed to have that same right. He screwed her so he's on the hook if she chooses to keep it. I personally believe that, unless your married (which already makes you legally responsible), until the birth certificate is signed a man should be able to sign away his rights and walk away.

Since no one's addressed this point yet, I'll highlight it, because I do think it's important . I'm solidly pro-choice personally, but it shouldn't be like it is now where the sole voice in deciding to have an abortion, give it up for adoption, or keep a child is the mother's. It may not be possible for years, until we've developed artifical womb technology capable of sustaining a developing embryo till birth, but half of that baby is the dad's, and he should have some say in its fate. For all that single fathers is more frequent in comedy movies than serious discussion, they're out there, and have to fight significant cultural bias (ever heard of a 'deadbeat mom' on TV?)

Offline Reagan

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2011, 06:32:54 AM »
Snipped your post a bit to bring it down to what I wanted to address.

I personally think that if you sign away your rights (male or female) there shouldn't be a way to come back from that. I know it's harsh but people that try to give away a child and then a few years later suddenly want to be a part of their life tend to do nothing but wreak havoc on that child's life. It's not what they intend but it is the consequence of the action. Children need security and safety and a sense that this is their world, not to have adults coming and going as they please and cocking that up.

I can't speak for anyone else but if my daughter's SD tried to come knocking on my door, I'd be sorely tempted to start calling friend to help me dispose of a body. There is no amount of financial resources that can make up for the fact the had had NO interest in being a part of her life for YEARS. And now suddenly thinks he can play Daddy. Nope, sorry, not in my world. She is nearly and is one of the happiest, most well adjusted children you could hope to meet. She has Uncles and her Papa for male role models and sees them all the time. She recognizes that other kids have Daddy's but is so happy in the way her life is arranged that it hasn't occurred to her yet to ask why she doesn't. She doesn't feel the lack of a father figure in her life in the least and I won't let someone try to come in and disrupt her happy little world without a knock-down, drag-out, over my dead freaking body fight.

As I said I do completely understand your feelings and choices.  It's fantastic that your daughter has lots of love, support and even other male role models around her.  I have to say though, that I think the reality for a lot of kids with single mums is very different.  I also don't think that a father being re-introduced to a child's life at a later stage can only have negative repercussions.  Of course everything must ultimately be weighed firmly in the child's best interest and nobody else's but to suggest that no man should ever be able to initiate a relationship with his child is too severe in my opinion.  There are a lot of guys who react in a knee-jerk way through terror at the end of their status-quo on becoming parents who wind up deeply regretting opting out of a child's life.  Yes, that's entirely their own fault but if they become mature and responsible enough to want to be a force for good in their kid's life and to be consistent in that, to brush them aside and say they've had their chance is to nobody's benefit.

Offline Reagan

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2011, 06:40:02 AM »
Since no one's addressed this point yet, I'll highlight it, because I do think it's important . I'm solidly pro-choice personally, but it shouldn't be like it is now where the sole voice in deciding to have an abortion, give it up for adoption, or keep a child is the mother's. It may not be possible for years, until we've developed artifical womb technology capable of sustaining a developing embryo till birth, but half of that baby is the dad's, and he should have some say in its fate. For all that single fathers is more frequent in comedy movies than serious discussion, they're out there, and have to fight significant cultural bias (ever heard of a 'deadbeat mom' on TV?)

I totally get this and I know there are deadbeat moms.  There are also plenty of moms with custody of their kids who are doing a far lousier job of raising them than their fathers would.  I think most fathers deserve some say in a kid's fate but while women bear children they will always have the final word.  And despite the fact that there are plenty of good single fathers and so on, the overwhelming experience of women is that their life is irrevocably changed by a baby while fathers' are not.  I think the percentage of fathers who would raise a child from birth alone, dealing with the feeding regime, the nappies and all that stuff is pretty low.  There are plenty of guys who are prepared to support a child financially and have him/her over at weekends etc but the majority still expect the mother to be the primary care giver, which is a far greater commitment.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2011, 07:45:04 AM »
I totally get this and I know there are deadbeat moms.  There are also plenty of moms with custody of their kids who are doing a far lousier job of raising them than their fathers would.  I think most fathers deserve some say in a kid's fate but while women bear children they will always have the final word.  And despite the fact that there are plenty of good single fathers and so on, the overwhelming experience of women is that their life is irrevocably changed by a baby while fathers' are not.  I think the percentage of fathers who would raise a child from birth alone, dealing with the feeding regime, the nappies and all that stuff is pretty low.  There are plenty of guys who are prepared to support a child financially and have him/her over at weekends etc but the majority still expect the mother to be the primary care giver, which is a far greater commitment.

Is it the fathers who expect the mother to be the primary, though, or the courts? It's true that most divorce settlements end up with the mother as primary caregiver, but I'm talking about the ones where rather than raise the child, the mothers have it aborted or given up for adoption. Fathers who feel strongly enough about their offspring that they would be willing to raise them from birth - not just pay money for them - are screwed because of society's bias against 'bad dads' and assuming that no parent at all is better than not having a mother while growing up. A woman's life is changed by a baby for a minimum of nine months (on average), assuming she carries it to term and then never sees it again - hardly an irrevocable change. You even said yourself that the percentage of fathers who would take on that burden is low...but one of America's original guiding principles, at least, is the idea that the minority should not suffer for the benefit of the majority, and in the current state of the laws and courts, those potentially great single fathers are never given the chance.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 07:46:14 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Anjasa

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2011, 08:53:17 AM »
Since no one's addressed this point yet, I'll highlight it, because I do think it's important . I'm solidly pro-choice personally, but it shouldn't be like it is now where the sole voice in deciding to have an abortion, give it up for adoption, or keep a child is the mother's. It may not be possible for years, until we've developed artifical womb technology capable of sustaining a developing embryo till birth, but half of that baby is the dad's, and he should have some say in its fate. For all that single fathers is more frequent in comedy movies than serious discussion, they're out there, and have to fight significant cultural bias (ever heard of a 'deadbeat mom' on TV?)

Pregnancy and birth, though, is a painful, dangerous experience for many women. One of the women at work is pregnant and she's spent the past few months in near constant pain between the migraines, the lack of sleep, the morning sickness that lasted for 3 months. She's missed a lot of work because of it and will likely be off early on sick leave because of it. That's a lot to ask a woman to go through if she's dead set against having a child and the father wants it.

I understand your point - and I agree in THEORY - but in practical, daily sense, the final decision has to rest with the woman. I believe that, in a healthy relationship, the man should definitely have a say and if the reasons she doesn't want the child can be rectified by the man (i.e. she doesn't want to raise the child alone, she doesn't know how she'll provide for it, etc.), then it's up to him to convince her that he'll be willing and able to help her in that regards.

But if the problem is she doesn't want to go through pregnancy or doesn't want to give birth, then that's not really something he can really argue with.

Offline Zakharra

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2011, 11:09:41 AM »
Pregnancy and birth, though, is a painful, dangerous experience for many women. One of the women at work is pregnant and she's spent the past few months in near constant pain between the migraines, the lack of sleep, the morning sickness that lasted for 3 months. She's missed a lot of work because of it and will likely be off early on sick leave because of it. That's a lot to ask a woman to go through if she's dead set against having a child and the father wants it.

I understand your point - and I agree in THEORY - but in practical, daily sense, the final decision has to rest with the woman. I believe that, in a healthy relationship, the man should definitely have a say and if the reasons she doesn't want the child can be rectified by the man (i.e. she doesn't want to raise the child alone, she doesn't know how she'll provide for it, etc.), then it's up to him to convince her that he'll be willing and able to help her in that regards.

But if the problem is she doesn't want to go through pregnancy or doesn't want to give birth, then that's not really something he can really argue with.

 I definitely agree with that. As you said, the theory is sound. AS a theory, but in practice it falls apart because pregnancy is a dangerous, painful and life changing process for the woman. The man isn't the one carrying the baby, feeling it move within her, nor is he the one to give birth. All he provided was 5-10 minutes of pleasure and his part was basically done. The woman is the one to always carry the consequences of pregnancy by being the one to carry the child.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2011, 02:46:09 PM »
Pregnancy and birth, though, is a painful, dangerous experience for many women. One of the women at work is pregnant and she's spent the past few months in near constant pain between the migraines, the lack of sleep, the morning sickness that lasted for 3 months. She's missed a lot of work because of it and will likely be off early on sick leave because of it. That's a lot to ask a woman to go through if she's dead set against having a child and the father wants it.

I understand your point - and I agree in THEORY - but in practical, daily sense, the final decision has to rest with the woman. I believe that, in a healthy relationship, the man should definitely have a say and if the reasons she doesn't want the child can be rectified by the man (i.e. she doesn't want to raise the child alone, she doesn't know how she'll provide for it, etc.), then it's up to him to convince her that he'll be willing and able to help her in that regards.

But if the problem is she doesn't want to go through pregnancy or doesn't want to give birth, then that's not really something he can really argue with.

Which is also why I recognize this sort of equality will never see daylight until it's medically possible to bring a child to term outside of a woman's body. It's a dream to hope for, though.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2011, 02:54:52 PM »
A woman's life is changed by a baby for a minimum of nine months (on average), assuming she carries it to term and then never sees it again - hardly an irrevocable change.

This comes off as ignorant and dismissive, even if it wasn't intended that way. There can be medical consequences of undergoing a pregnancy that persist for the entirety of the mother's life (including maternal mortality during delivery the rate of which has risen in the past decade). And the rest of this conversation seems to have jumped off into a combination of anecdotal narratives and really poor and really broad generalizations.

Online Zeitgeist

Re: What has happened to us?
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2011, 06:46:08 AM »
I wouldn't defend the author of this article. It goes too far and is conspiratorial. But as with all conspiracies there is a vein of truth. Masculinity is not analogous to misogyny. I hope we can all agree on that? Given the number of noncustodial and absent, delinquent fathers out there, perceived or otherwise, and given the number of violent crimes perpetrated by men, there is cause for concern.