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Author Topic: London Riot's  (Read 4824 times)

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Offline Missy

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2011, 03:44:33 PM »
All I can say is it's a sick and perverse day when the government must act to protect it's citizens from their neighbors.

I hope things get better for you guys and I'm sorry it's so bad.

Offline Major Major

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2011, 09:18:24 PM »
You know what was hideiously hilarious just now? I was listening to the radio, on one of those music stations where you can request songs, right?

They played London Calling by The Clash, and I Predict a Riot by the Kaiser Chiefs, practically back to back.

Offline Wyrd

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2011, 09:39:13 PM »
So... One of my close friend's tattoo shop got sacked and fucked a few days ago. So whether this is some sort of proud demonstration or misguided youth, I'm not sure... But if something smells like shit, looks like shit and tastes like shit, then it's a piece of shit. So I'm gonna sorta agree withone of the earlier posts... In my words: These people are nothing but shit.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 09:45:26 PM by Wyrd »

Offline Noelle

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2011, 10:03:53 PM »
All I can say is it's a sick and perverse day when the government must act to protect it's citizens from their neighbors.

Isn't that kind of what they do every day, though? There are laws against theft and murder, after all.

At any rate, I agree with the gist of your sentiment -- pretty sad that what's started out as a protest has turned into free-for-all shitstorm. Hopefully things calm down and get resolved in good time.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2011, 10:32:27 PM »
So... One of my close friend's tattoo shop got sacked and fucked a few days ago. So whether this is some sort of proud demonstration or misguided youth, I'm not sure... But if something smells like shit, looks like shit and tastes like shit, then it's a piece of shit. So I'm gonna sorta agree withone of the earlier posts... In my words: These people are nothing but shit.

Or like it's put from one of the english web comic artists I follow said.



Okay it's like this.. as one movie character once side. "You don't shit where you eat." And these idiots are doing just that.

Offline Syauglan

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2011, 01:33:25 AM »
For me the worst thing about the riots is the righteousness BS everyone indulges in as a result.

...

...

Offline Ophelia Jaxon

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2011, 02:05:44 AM »
I was surprisedd at how quickly this now pointless riot moved through the country. It's bad in Liverpool which is the boiggest city we're close to...Don't know if it's hit in Chester yet, we're on the other side of the Mersey, but lastnight it even hit us (well...a 10 min drive from us) in Birkenhead. It's...Well scary.

Offline Djembe

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2011, 08:05:55 AM »
This is all not that surprising. Youth unemployment is at shocking levels 20+% last time I looked. Those who are looking for work find themselves having to jump through ridiculous hoops and at the same time are demonised or exploited on work schemes that are tantamount to slave labour. I have seen all the youth services in my local area destroyed. Quite happy well adjusted teens can't even hang around together with out a dispersal order coming into effect. Those who showed an interest in politics feel they have had their futures sold out. Suicide rates of the young are sky-rocketing to the point mental health services are struggling to cope. I am picking up on a sense of rage that has nowhere to go amidst pure despondency. This is amongst the more actively motivated youth, who have gone on marches and realise it is all for nothing so just go get wasted off their face.   Better than facing reality of inheriting a world that only offers them an ever increasing cesspit.

Education has been crippled in dealing out any semblance of discipline. It's not cool to be smart. The cops have had their hands tied with much softer pointless measures put in place. Relegated to being revenue agents and chasing targets instead of policing. Political correctness has gone nuts and is choking everything from doing it's job. The law system is just a mass of bureaucracy that is out to save money and serve it's self than help any one in any meaningful manner. Asbo's are a badge of honour. Prison is not even remotely a deterrent in the first place.  Prison is a holiday camp in many ways, friends respect and drugs all in easy access. It is also a good school of how to be a better criminal. What is not to like about not needing a Cv, working the hours you want and getting pure profit, better than being poor schmuck who can barely feed themselves or buy the latest xbox title. So much crime is 'poverty' driven. Generations have grown up with television being their sole parent. So is it surprising that these so called 'feral youth' espouse the virtues of sociopaths? Their estates and gangs giving them more 'bruv' love where violence is the measure of a man. Eight yearolds are seen looting booze while their parents stand idly by. Or even bring their own children out to watch.

Natural lemming mentality has kicked in, they are rioting so I will do it too. Ah a nice shiny laptop I can flog that. For the first time there is a social medium to convey messages that organise things across the country. I don't think this is politically motivated in the way people plumbing the depths of understanding think it is. This is yob culture that has been allowed to grow and develop and is now taking what it wants and having a good time while doing it. The warning signs have been there for some time. This is just symptomatic of greater issues that have long gone ignored.

Last night rumours where going round of something kicking off in my home city, a lot of police were on the street. I have also heard from various friends across the country that smaller incidents have taken place but are not really making it into the papers. Somewhat unnerving times. Stay safe every one.

Offline Primarch

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2011, 08:46:50 AM »
As I heard one person say it
"Britain must be the only country where people wearing 100 runners can organize rioting with their 300 blackberry's and blame impoverishment."
Ignoring the first bit of the sentence, but the rest is making an amusing point.

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Re: London Riot's
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2011, 10:35:53 AM »
I think this is rather intelligent

Quote from: Ed Milliband
To seek to explain is not to seek to excuse. Of course these are acts of individual criminality. But we have a duty to ask ourselves why there are people who feel they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, from wanton vandalism and looting. We cannot afford to let this pass, to calm the situation down, only to find ourselves in this position again in the future.

Via

Offline Syauglan

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2011, 02:23:08 PM »
To seek to explain is not to seek to excuse. Of course these are acts of individual criminality. But we have a duty to ask ourselves why there are people who feel they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, from wanton vandalism and looting. We cannot afford to let this pass, to calm the situation down, only to find ourselves in this position again in the future.

Eden, please don't put your faith in that guy. There is certainly more to come and Ed Milliband, together with the political establishment as a whole, will be helpless to mitigate the worst of it until they orientate their vision around the truly big issue of the 21st century; the catastrophically unsustainable structure of modern society.

Its not possible to attribute the recent riots directly to resource scarcity in the same way its not possible to attribute a particular extreme weather event to climate change. However, there is an overall global pattern that can be seen. The competition for fuels to drive modern civilisation is getting more aggressive and the extraction of them more expensive. That is driving up the cost of everything in general which can't continue indefinitely because we can't improve efficiency indefinitely. This, together with other systemic factors driving the economic downturn are still only beginning to unfold.

Inevitably the cost of living in the UK will continue to increase relative to average income and the bureaucratic infrastructure will continue to buckle under the strain of disenfranchised people who find themselves priced out of food, fuel and housing. The UK is going to be plunged into one crisis after another related to energy, economy and government. Even if the deterioration is gracefully gradual you can expect far more social unrest as pressures build up and burst.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2011, 02:35:14 PM »
Eden, please don't put your faith in that guy. There is certainly more to come and Ed Milliband, together with the political establishment as a whole, will be helpless to mitigate the worst of it until they orientate their vision around the truly big issue of the 21st century; the catastrophically unsustainable structure of modern society.

Its not possible to attribute the recent riots directly to resource scarcity in the same way its not possible to attribute a particular extreme weather event to climate change. However, there is an overall global pattern that can be seen. The competition for fuels to drive modern civilisation is getting more aggressive and the extraction of them more expensive. That is driving up the cost of everything in general which can't continue indefinitely because we can't improve efficiency indefinitely. This, together with other systemic factors driving the economic downturn are still only beginning to unfold.

Inevitably the cost of living in the UK will continue to increase relative to average income and the bureaucratic infrastructure will continue to buckle under the strain of disenfranchised people who find themselves priced out of food, fuel and housing. The UK is going to be plunged into one crisis after another related to energy, economy and government. Even if the deterioration is gracefully gradual you can expect far more social unrest as pressures build up and burst.

+1

And this same problem will spread to America.  It's going to take a little more time, because America is a somewhat wealthier society, and the population is more conditioned to blame itself for poverty.  "Doh!  It's MY fault I didn't pick an elite mother's birth canal to come into the world through...I'll serve my punishment in this life and try harder to be a trust-fund baby in the next..."  But neoconservative indoctrination isn't going to hold for long when things began their steeper decline by the middle of the decade.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2011, 02:55:01 PM »
I hate to say this.. I really don't want to be 'that guy' but.. we (as the western world) did this to ourselves.

The UK is a few decades ahead of the US, but I see a lot of this coming in the US too.

We, the west, have let jobs vanish because they were 'low paying' or 'can be done more cheaply elsewhere'. We let our companies export jobs and did little or nothing to fill the wholes those jobs left when they were 'exported/outsourced'. It's always easier to ignore things.

Call me stupid/ignorant or such, but when you eliminate jobs in your primary market (as well as your competitors) who is going to buy your stuff, becuase while worker X (who worked at your factory is out a job) might not buy your product but his earnings circulate through the community up to six times before leaving. That is money that goes to banks, grocery stores, utlities and elsewhere. Where those people might be among your target audience.

We as a society need to learn that the 'short term' profit view is going to ruin us. Look over the last 20 years and how big business has changed from '5 to 10 years' in planning to 'how to maximize profits' this quarter.

Looking at a pool of unemployed people within your own country, can a businessman NOT find a way to profit from it. Legally?

We need to change some of the practices of business, offer them incentives that will bring them back, and realize one very important thing. Education IS NEEDED. That is one of the worse areas that government through out the '1st world' is failing. It doesn't show 'profit' therefore business doesn't want to be taxed for it, conservative idiots think it's 'irrelevant' and liberal idiots insist on 'leveling' the field by bringing it from a task to be worked on to a punch card that anyone can get through.

Rant done. We, as a people, set this up. We need to reform the system, bait the businesses back and return to a long term outlook rather than a short term foolishly reckless outlook that came out of the School of Business a la Gordon Gecko.

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Re: London Riot's
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2011, 02:59:33 PM »
Eden, please don't put your faith in that guy.

Faith? No. I don't trust any politician, I just said it was intelligent. He's looking in the right direction.

I think I'm going to retire from this discussion - I'm never any good at them. *smiles* Thanks for the natter, darlings.

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Re: London Riot's
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2011, 03:05:24 PM »
I don't dispute that there are discontented people out there, and that there could very well be food riots and civil unrest over unemployment before too long, but so far, the information I've seen is that these are not those riots.  There might be an element of racial tension involved, however.   The precipitating event was the shooting of a man by the police (the focus is either on the fact that he was a known drug dealer or that he was the father of four, depending on which side you talk to).  I know that the family of that man wanted a non-violent protest, and the riots broke out sometime during that.

Offline Syauglan

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2011, 05:28:17 PM »
Oniya I don't think these riots are those riots yet either but they demonstrate how fragile civil society already is in London and some other UK cities. I take that as a warning. Also, although its unwise to point to any particular thing or another as responsible for the escalation and spread of the riots, it would be strange to say, for example, that the utterly bleak economic prospects of the young, boredom due to unemployment and cuts to the police force weren't contributing pressures. We can be fairly certain these pressures will get worse and compound with others which are connected with the global economy struggling with the limits of growth.

We as a society need to learn that the 'short term' profit view is going to ruin us. Look over the last 20 years and how big business has changed from '5 to 10 years' in planning to 'how to maximize profits' this quarter.

Ugh! I hear you. If there is one impulse we could all do with subduing its seeking short term profit, no matter how paltry, over long term gain. If we examine the decisions we make over time or even in the course of just one day the chances are a large majority of the the obviously bad decisions will all be due to wanting instant gratification.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2011, 05:55:10 PM »

Ugh! I hear you. If there is one impulse we could all do with subduing its seeking short term profit, no matter how paltry, over long term gain. If we examine the decisions we make over time or even in the course of just one day the chances are a large majority of the the obviously bad decisions will all be due to wanting instant gratification.

Growing up in the 70s.. I remember the first part of the decade as 'long term planning will put us here by 198X' and then things like R&D tax breaks going away and deregulation becoming the order of the day. Then it was folks like Frank Lorenzo who essentially castrated the 'Big 5' in American airlines (and PanAm as well). Those he didn't buy outright he ruined. What for? A quick in and out profit that wasn't illegal because of the way regulations had been changed.

Then you had guys come in and buy out companies who were making steady profits/income because they could be bought out for less than their asset worth and sold off for a quick buck.

Big Business used to be planning, investing and 'growing your market'. Today it's all about Gordon Gekko's famous saying 'Greed is Good'. The whole mortgage crisis was because a few brokers in the right place didn't want to lose their quarterly bonuses as the market wound down and instead bottled up the toxic mortgages and passed them back and forth to keep them from popping up till the market collapsed under the weight of their fraud.

I used to joke about 'Business Ethics' but today.. I wish that they would put it back in the curriculum. This 'what is right for me no matter what' crap is ruining too many folks. If they spent half as much energy in looking for ways to rebuild their economy or to encourage growth at home, there would be no need for outsourcing. You can outsource, lean manage or micro-economy (or whatever power word of the day) here if you put forth the effort.

England is definitely not lacking for labor looking for work and you can't tell me the rust belt, or the south (Florida is at about 12% unemployment right now) don't have options here in the US.

I find it ironic that one major factor that could encourage reinvestment here in the US is a poison pill for presidents. Every candidate that had spoken out about lowering the 35% corporate tax rate to something lower had FAILED to get elected.

Offline Neroon

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Re: London Riot's
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2011, 04:40:51 AM »
I think someone earlier in the thread said that perhaps the post sickening thing about all of this is the sight of various politicians seeking to make political capital out of the disorder and I have to say that I agree with them.  The sight of Diane Abbott on Newsnight claimimg that these riots were the natural result of having a Tory government was a particularly vile piece of opportunism.  While it was true that the last rioting comparable to this were the riots of 1981, the fact is that summer rioting has been a fact of life in Britain for many years, including when Ms Abbott's party were in power.

Such riots may not happen every year but they do occur with a depressing regularity and, to be perfectly honest, the only thing about these riots that has surprised me is the fact the didn't occur last year or the year before.  Basically, there are a whole number of factors that have contributed to the outbreaks of rioting across Britain and while some of those are economic and political, others stem from more basic social issues.

One of the things I have noticed, teaching in designated "London overspill" schools is how the attitudes of teenagers have changed over the last six or seven years.  Pretty much the attitudes have been changing over the last quarter century but in the last few years the rate of change has increased dramatically.  The reason for this is the fact that school discipline has become increasingly toothless: when the most severe sanction you can apply to disaffected students is to give them time off school, you have to wonder what that teaches them.  When that is linked to the fact that teachers who raise their voices to students can now end up being looked at as being overly harsh (it happened to me five years ago and all I did was raise my voice to be heard over the class) then we have a recipe for disaster.

Such a policy base has been pretty well eviden in schools in England for the last 15 years or so.  However, like a lot of things, it takes time for it to filter through so that the students realise it.  Moreover, one of the ways parents learn to control their children is to apply the controls that were used when they were children.  In part this will be by emulating their own parents and in part this will be by emulating their teachers.  When teachers' discipline is toothless, so to will parental discipline become.  So in the last seven years or so, we have children coming through whose parents were ineffectually disciplined and are thus ineffective in disciplining children themselves.  This has resulted in the current dramatic increase in school disorder.

The current child protection climate, in which the allegations of a child supersede the natural law of "innocent until proven guilty" and the hair trigger with which social services gets involved means that children learn that they are pretty well untouchable.  Now, I've got no beef with the idea of child protection, indeed, I an vehement in chasing down cases of abuse and neglect when I discover them.  However, there needs to be a proper balance which, unfortunately, has been lacking for decades.

So both the lack of school discipline and the focus on children's rights has created a cohort of teenagers who are primarily focussed on their own rights and their own needs and who think that any form of authority is a joke.  The one thing that schools do well in regard to controlling kids is to keep them in school.  Indeed, it is one of the prime foci in any school improvement plan.  Sowhat tends to happen is that, during term, these unruly teens are at least kept off the streets.

During the long summer holiday, however, that doesn't happen and when you couple this with long hours of daylight, the beginnings of the current situation become apparent.  It's no surprise that most civil disorder in the UK occurs in the summer; there is more time for it and the streets are flooded with disaffected teens.  One of the great successes of the last Labour government was to label such unrest as being a result of binge drinking.  So the periodic seasonal disturbances in English town centres were seen as being individual incidents of drunken yobbery.  The problem became one of drinking culture as opposed to one of civil order.  This change in government emphasis occured in 2004 after the Leeds riots (then and in 2001), which the Kaiser Chiefs immortalised in their song.  When the summer riots that occured were too large to be discribed as being the result of drunkenness, they were described as being anticapitalist in nature.

The Labour government weren't alone in doing this.  The previous Tory administration linked Summer disorder in the nineties to "New Age Travellers".  While the initial sparks that caused the disorder might have been the police wanting to move new age travellers on or a demonstration about a G-whatever-number-it-isat-the-moment summit or whatever, the majority of such violence is unlinked to that initial cause and is the result of conditions that politicians of all parties have fostered.

I accused Diane Abott of political opportunism earlier and while that's accurate, it doesn't mean that there isn't a kernel of truth in what she said.  The cuts imposed by the coalition have acted to make a breakdown into disorder more likely.  However, they are,  believe a contributory factor rather than the uderlying cause.  The main cause is a social one and one that British society does not want to face, that we are all responsible for the problems.  Until we face up to the fact that sometimes we need to be hard on our young to ensure that they respect the fabric of society, all that will happen is that the politicians will play football with the situation, relabel it as a different problem or merely deal with the symptom, not the cause, and claim victory when the cold and dark of autumn and winter cause the disorder to dissipate.

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Re: London Riot's
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2011, 10:15:12 AM »
The reason for this is the fact that school discipline has become increasingly toothless: when the most severe sanction you can apply to disaffected students is to give them time off school, you have to wonder what that teaches them.  When that is linked to the fact that teachers who raise their voices to students can now end up being looked at as being overly harsh (it happened to me five years ago and all I did was raise my voice to be heard over the class) then we have a recipe for disaster.

Quote
The current child protection climate, in which the allegations of a child supersede the natural law of "innocent until proven guilty" and the hair trigger with which social services gets involved means that children learn that they are pretty well untouchable.  Now, I've got no beef with the idea of child protection, indeed, I an vehement in chasing down cases of abuse and neglect when I discover them.  However, there needs to be a proper balance which, unfortunately, has been lacking for decades.

Quote
During the long summer holiday, however, that doesn't happen and when you couple this with long hours of daylight, the beginnings of the current situation become apparent.  It's no surprise that most civil disorder in the UK occurs in the summer; there is more time for it and the streets are flooded with disaffected teens.
 

Quote
Until we face up to the fact that sometimes we need to be hard on our young to ensure that they respect the fabric of society, all that will happen is that the politicians will play football with the situation, relabel it as a different problem or merely deal with the symptom, not the cause, and claim victory when the cold and dark of autumn and winter cause the disorder to dissipate.

Now, this makes sense with the things I've read.  I can't speak for the political aspect, but kids bailing out of school because 'it doesn't matter', and then being unwilling or unable to do anything more with themselves ties in with every aspect of this.  (Heck, summer rioting dates back until at least the '70s.)

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2011, 10:22:03 AM »
 

Now, this makes sense with the things I've read.  I can't speak for the political aspect, but kids bailing out of school because 'it doesn't matter', and then being unwilling or unable to do anything more with themselves ties in with every aspect of this.  (Heck, summer rioting dates back until at least the '70s.)

It's not as bad as the Belfast/Londonderry riots I saw growing up in Ireland on BBC. No one is throwing acid bombs at the cops.  (yet)

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Re: London Riot's
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2011, 10:25:26 AM »
*shudders*  Thank goodness for that.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2011, 10:36:17 AM »
*shudders*  Thank goodness for that.

I arrived in Newtowneforbes, Republic of Ireland, about six months after the death of Lord Montbatten. Growing up as a Southern Protestant of Scotch decent in an Irish Catholic school was an education. Part of it was having 3 grades in one room the other part was getting the unholy hell beat out of me occasionally for reasons I didn't understand.

I remember seeing those riots and wondering why? Then seeing the Orangemen Parades..and thinking 'what a bunch of tools'. Seeing that sort of thing at nine was an education for a white bread kid from middle class suburbia.

By the time I got home, I took away a very different view of things. Of course realizing that you'd picnicked on an 2000+pound mine buried under a crossroad only 10 miles from the border makes things scary clear. (This was right after the Ulster forces got the right to chase the IRA a certain distance across the border).

Nothing like seeing that 'country corner' you picnicked at during Easter break turned into a massive crater that scares the hell out of you.

But the thing that gets me most were the riots. I always remember the riots.

This time around I haven't seen any vids of the cops shooting folks with riot batons or rubber bullets yet though. Makes me wonder what has changed in the last 30 odd years since I lived in Ireland. The snide smart ass cynic in me wonders if folks were getting tear gassed or such would they keep up the rioting.

I did find one interesting article about the looted goodies that are popping up on Ebay.

http://dvice.com/archives/2011/08/all-phones-loot.php

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Re: London Riot's
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2011, 10:59:04 AM »
Mr. Oniya used to work in a store that sold cell-phones  I read that article to him and he went 'Oh yeah!  Then just let someone try to get it activated - charge 'em with possession of stolen property.'

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2011, 11:09:04 AM »
Mr. Oniya used to work in a store that sold cell-phones  I read that article to him and he went 'Oh yeah!  Then just let someone try to get it activated - charge 'em with possession of stolen property.'

I'm sure, for the sufficiently savvy, there are work arounds but for Joe Q Average-Citizen it's going to be a rude surprise to find out your phone you got such a good deal on ebay is a brick.

Offline Missy

Re: London Riot's
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2011, 03:18:27 PM »
Or like it's put from one of the english web comic artists I follow said.



Okay it's like this.. as one movie character once side. "You don't shit where you eat." And these idiots are doing just that.

I've been refraining from saying "Just shoot the little fuckers", partly because it's a little extreme an approach and also because I'm not sure Martial Law is absolutely necessary. Manpower seems to be the main problem so you can send in the military to help round them up without having to kill anyone. Maybe even load some dummy rounds into your tanks and scare them shitless.

I absolutely agree though, these kids are just a bunch of brain-dead good for nothing degenerates and some lead to the brain-pan might actually improve their intellect a little. Like I said I don't think it's really necessary to kill any of these people, though I wouldn't feel sorry if some of them did die.

In the end the situation can probably be stabilized fairly easily and these kids will hopefully get some time. I don't know exactly what the laws are for it, either in the U.S. or the U.K., but personally I think twenty years sounds fair. I think they gave up their right to walk around on the street the moment they started breaching other people's rights. Including the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.