You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 08, 2016, 12:24:32 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet  (Read 5747 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Noelle

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2011, 07:30:07 PM »
Noelle, I will explain this one last time. If you do not get it, you are purposefully ignoring my points.

Not exactly. If I don't get it, it means you're either not very clear or your points don't make sense. If you were making points that logically followed, I would be happy to concede, but I have pointed out where they are inconsistent, so maybe we could go from there. If you'd like to close up the gaps where they are inconsistent, this could be a very compelling and productive discussion, indeed.

Quote
If you borrow a DVD from a friend or the library, YOU GIVE IT BACK! I have said time and again, you do not keep the thing. You return it.

Yes, and I have said time and time again that this is a moot point. So let's please discuss that in particular because refuting my point by repeating the same point isn't really refuting at all. You're telling me I'm ignoring your points when, in fact, I've mimed them back to you already and will do so again in this very post. Consider them acknowledged.

I borrow a DVD from a friend online via downloading. I take the extra step to send it back to them when I'm done and then delete it from my HD -- it is no longer in my possession, I have not kept it, it is no longer accessible by me. This is, by definition, the direct result of giving something back.

You have not explained to me in any way, shape, or form, how these two things are different and I am genuinely curious to know why they are. The end result is the same -- the item is not in my possession any longer and the original owner retains their copy. Either there is a step here I'm missing, or your point is drumming up a double-standard with no good explanation as to why. Your choice.

Quote
Others have said here that you can make some copies, as long as you do not intend to distribute for the intent of making money.

Please do some research.
No, you can't distribute copied DVDs or CDs, even to friends, even for free.
Quote
Judges have said that consumers have a right to copy a DVD for their own use—say, for backing it up to another disk or perhaps watching it on another device, such as an iPod.

This is basically physical piracy and is a double standard for you to support. If it were okay to distribute copies of DVDs for free to anyone you wanted, then why not undercut the government and illegality of pirating something online by simply sending out a massive amount of copied DVDs to anyone who wants one?

Quote
Second hand sales are allowed, otherwise NO second hand store would ever be allowed to exist. Can you understand that?

Why yes I can, thank you. :) But sticking by this point means you would logically have zero moral qualms about online piracy if it were made legal tomorrow, which really just makes this debate more about "I only care because the government says I should" and less about "there is something inherently wrong about this".

Quote
As far as I know, people who run the pirating sites, never bought the thing either. They are illegally distributing copies and the theme seems to be, from what people in this thread have said, 'Fuck the man!'  'He's wealthy, he can afford it.'  or  'Why should I pay for it when I can get it for free?'
Except you don't know any of this for certain, so it's not really evidence for or against.


Quote
I'm getting a little heated under the collar at your thick headedness, (and yes I think you are intentionally being dense or stubborn) so this will be my last post in this thread for awhile. I need to cool down. You admit you -know- you are pirating and see nothing wrong with it.

Yes, I will be happy to also take a few days off from this thread if it means I am not wrongly accused of being "thick-headed". People disagreeing with you does not automatically equate you being in the absolute right and the other party not being as "enlightened" as you. It can mean you are not communicating effectively or there is an issue with your stance. I have done nothing to personally insult you, so I would be very appreciative if you could avoid being purposely disrespectful in return.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 07:32:31 PM by Noelle »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2011, 07:55:44 PM »
@rick957

I don't think there is a 'death of copyright' anywhere. The big content providers are doing their best to extend 'copyright lifespan' beyond anything anyone has ever imagined. Corporate ownership of a copyright is now over a century and if some of the folks courting congress had there way it would NEVER end.

While not directly tied to the thread issue of piracy, some points of the 'fair use' have been slowly and gradually turned to 'piracy'. If the record companies had their way you wouldn't have very been allowed to copy a tape or copy a cd to your hard drive or iPod. Anything that changed your purchase to a new media would be piracy. This isn't a new practice. They tried to get tape recorders and vhs recorders banned (it went to federal court if I recall) and I know that if they thought they had a chance in hell with DVD/CD burners they'd try again.

Piracy is bad. Yes. One of the reasons I stop, the other being that I didn't buy into the 'stick it to the man' outlook of some pirates and I want to reward the artists/creators for their works (fyi.. most of the stuff I DID download wound up being bought anyway..but that is beside the point).

My problem with the 'anti-piracy' movement from the folks at RIAA and the Motion Pictures is their belief that we have no right to privacy, to 'fair use' and that we should simply shut up and let them decide how much they should screw us over for. I am a Star Trek fan.. I would LOVE to buy Enterprise and DS9 but I'm not paying $100 bucks a season or $50 bucks used.  So I grouse about it then go pay $25 bucks for a used/previewed DVD set of supernatural instead. That is how I 'stick it to the man' by buying used items when I can.

However, I do think that while these groups have some legitimate issues they are being unfair to the public at large and need to realize that their whole revamping/changing of copyright issues is stiffling innovation.

How long will it be before I have to pay 10 cents to cite a publication in my paper at school? I know if Rupert Murdoch had his way I would be doing it now.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2011, 11:43:51 PM »
Why yes I can, thank you. :) But sticking by this point means you would logically have zero moral qualms about online piracy if it were made legal tomorrow, which really just makes this debate more about "I only care because the government says I should" and less about "there is something inherently wrong about this".
Except you don't know any of this for certain, so it's not really evidence for or against.

Unless I am mistaken your miscommunication is stemming from this. The above seems to be the whole of Zakharra's point. Piracy is wrong because the government has defined it as wrong. There seems to be no further argument. There can't be a further argument because it is asserted as definitional.

*shrugs*

Offline Will

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2011, 02:42:13 AM »
In the interest of not beating a dead horse, here's a subject that's different, yet related!  Does widespread pirating really deter artistic creation?  How much of an effect does it have?

Personally, I can't imagine someone with an honest urge to express themselves deciding to give up the whole thing just because someone down the line might enjoy their work without paying for it.  That seems kind of far-fetched.  The accessibility of their work might take a hit, but there's plenty of amazing musicians and writers out there to be found, outside of the major publishing companies.  They aren't making that much money, and yet, they still create.  Musicians that are just starting out certainly don't make much money from studio recordings; playing gigs is what pays them, and it's not much.  Freely distributed recordings only helps them in that regard.  All this is out there to be found, if someone wants to go looking.  Piracy certainly isn't going to hurt all that.  If it ends up destroying the major publishing/recording companies (which is also far-fetched), maybe more people will start to care about all those other writers and musicians, instead of just supporting whomever is thrust into their face by the publicity machines.  Wouldn't that inspire more artistic expression, in the long run?

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2011, 11:22:30 AM »
It's also worth noting that the Internet is brimming with creative works whose creators can't legally profit from them. Look at the vast amount of fan-anything (fiction, art, costuming, video, in my case I even made fan tabletop system, etc.) that floats around the web. The only way those artists are able to create and distribute that content is by not fiscally profiting from it. And yes, 90% of it is crap (as is everything: Sturgeon's Revelation), but it's all pretty much made out of a direct creative desire rather than any kind of for-profit desire.

Personally, I can't imagine someone with an honest urge to express themselves deciding to give up the whole thing just because someone down the line might enjoy their work without paying for it.  That seems kind of far-fetched.

Motivation can be a tricky thing. And of the top of my head I can think of three reasons why it comes about:
1) The knee jerk reaction that it is fundamentally wrong that someone gets to enjoy your effort without paying its 'full value'. This is notably often coupled with the naive notion that all artists are given a fair shake by their publisher and aren't already having the value of their work undermined on a larger and more personal scale.
2) The flawed (as I have already discussed) notion that every single copy pirated is a sale lost; that literally when an individual pirates a work there is now one less dollar in royalties in their pocket.
3) There is a prevalent notion among some artists that piracy will prevent them from making a living solely based on art, ignorant of the fact that they won't be able to anyway. One of my friends is a small time cartoonist. He even has a new premier next month which is going to be a great financial windfall. He still isn't quitting his day job in a bookstore. And I think there is a little hubristic part of every artist (I know I have it <_<) that says "Oh, but I won't be small time." without the realization that everyone starts small time (with the exception of a few rags to riches stories that publishers make sure to use as the lure to draw naive content producers in).

So yeah, the end result being that (primarily through the publishing industries half-truths and outright lies), many novice artists have a distorted view of the value of their work and piracy's impact on that value. I could easily see that as deterring someone from pursuing the creative process, and it saddens me.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2011, 02:15:47 PM »
And for a moment of lightness.

"Weird Al" Yankovic - Don't Download This Song

Cause I see folks starting to fray a bit on this. :D

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2011, 02:28:48 PM »
Or this?

http://www.amazon.com/Steal-This-Book-Abbie-Hoffman/dp/156858217X

(Ironically, it does not make the list of 'top 10 books stolen' - although the Bible apparently does.)

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2011, 03:43:43 PM »
In my experience selling books the most common type of books stolen are textbooks. I suppose it makes sense when you think about it, but it struck me as really odd when I was first shown the figures.

Offline didoanna

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2011, 04:57:56 PM »
An author, musician or game designer that lives on the royalties of their blood, sweat and tears to support themselves and possibly a family deserves those royalties.

Piracy is theft.

Umm..oddly enough I totally agree with that but the thing for me is that I know if I go and buy a brand new CD album it's quite expensive.  So I tend to wait until Amazon drops it's prices...unless it's like a special edition or something and then I might buy it straight away.

I do download bits of albums but that is only to see if I like them...for example..I D/L'd part of a Carrie Underwood album...loved it and went on to buy the rest of her stuff. The same was true of Ellie Goulding but there is no way I could afford to spend money on the off-chance I might like something new or unusual.

Maybe, perhaps, I don't wanna sound cheeky or disrespectful, perhaps if the record companies dropped their prices more people would buy the CDs legally. 

I personally love the Special Edition stuff that artists do like Shakira did recently by including a DVD with her CDs.  That's when it becomes worth it.

Offline rick957

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2011, 09:09:03 PM »
@Will

I don't think piracy deters artistic creation.  I do think piracy has had the indirect effect of destroying the businesses that have traditionally made it possible for artists to find an audience of any size.  The problem is exactly this -- if I may selectively quote you --

Quote
... there's plenty of amazing musicians and writers out there to be found .... if someone wants to go looking.  ... maybe more people will start to care about all those other writers and musicians, instead of just supporting whomever is thrust into their face by the publicity machines.

Sorry if I mangled your context, but my point is that this is precisely what is no longer happening:  artists are no longer able to find large audiences, and vice versa, because the publicity machines have been shut down.  The necessary function of those publicity machines has not been picked up by anything else, including all the innovative distribution mechanisms on the internet -- not even iTunes -- not yet at least, not in meaningful numbers.  There's far far far more music and art and writing and video available to the masses than at any previous time in human history, but people aren't finding the quality stuff from amidst the ocean of dreck, except in very small numbers that don't even add up to a living wage for the creators.  IMO.

@Callie

I'm somewhat aware of the abuses of the old copyright system, its over-extension, etc., and I'm no fan of big businesses raping their customers.  I sympathize and/or agree with most of what you said (and thanks for the reply btw!).  I was referring to the end of copyright in a broad, somewhat abstract sense, and in the only sense that matters much to me personally, which is that creative people can no longer control the distribution of their work to the public in a way that allows them to profit substantially from their work.  For all the wretched shortcomings of the old music business, the monopolistic record companies were able to put some high-quality music in front of huge numbers of people, and now that they've been decimated, the quality stuff that's out there is just languishing in profitless obscurity, benefiting neither artists nor audience.  IMO YMMV etc.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 09:14:13 PM by rick957 »

Offline Will

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2011, 10:43:45 PM »
rick, I suspect that the difference in our views is that I don't think the publicity machine serves any necessary function.  Especially with the advent of the internet, you as a consumer can find anything you want with a minimal effort.  And as an artist, promoting yourself and your work is really your own responsibility.  It takes commitment, responsibility, time, and money, but it can be done without the aid of major publishing or recording companies.

We also seem to disagree on whether or not the publicity machine is still active; I think it very much is.  Listen to any mainstream radio station, and you'll hear Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, and a handful of other pop artists until your ears bleed (not that I have a problem with them, really... the repetition is just too much).  The same is true for authors, and even traditional artists (Thomas Kinkade, for serious).

As for the idea that there's too much junk out there, well, I have to disagree.  There's been tons of junk out there as long as people have been creating art, with a tiny handful of the good stuff managing to find an audience.  Piracy can help a lot of those struggling artists to reach that audience, but the publicity machine as it exists would love to stamp that out.  Why?  Moral qualms?  I doubt it.  Piracy undermines their very lucrative stranglehold on popular culture.  Get rid of that stranglehold, and what happens?  Is it the death of culture in our country?  I think it might actually allow culture to flourish in a lot of new ways.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2011, 11:24:53 PM »
@rick957

I have to agree with Will, seems that the 'machine' is still working fine. Though the lovely folks at RIAA are claiming otherwise. (You can't claim that piracy and 'unrealistic' arts are killing the industry if things are shown to be going well). I feel for the artists that don't get discovered but the Record Makers aren't losing any cash for lack of new talent. They find new talent every day, and more often than not eat it alive.

Offline rick957

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2011, 11:44:29 PM »
Will (and Callie) -- Katy Perry and Lady Gaga are very literally the exceptions that prove the rule, that the old media publicity machines can no longer penetrate the public consciousness on behalf of new artists; those are the only two younger artists that most people can name off the top of their head ... the only two to emerge in the past five to ten years; and they succeeded only with the full financial backing of the same old monolithic record companies.  Take any period of five to ten years prior to the most recent, and you'll find far more debut artists that "made it," at least for a moment, into the main thoroughfare of pop culture ... Where are the dozens of previously-unknown, young bands making their living off fans reached through the internet?  So far they're just a pipe dream, a fiction created by the non-stop technology-hype sector of the media, an appealing promise that never materializes.

The new distribution mechanisms are in place and are easier and more democratic than ever before.  It's the publicity problem that's proven insurmountable thus far.  As someone smarter than me said somewhere, people's attention is the new commodity of the internet age.  We have more options and alternatives than ever, but we've lost the means to guide us all to the creative work ("content") worthy of our attention.  The only ones profiting thus far from new distribution means are artists whom people learned about from the old big-business publicity machines; they can now cut out the middlemen and reach their old fans directly, which is great.  But the unknown new artists are S.O.L. 

Quote
... Piracy can help a lot of those struggling artists to reach that audience, but the publicity machine as it exists would love to stamp that out.  Why?  Moral qualms?  I doubt it.  Piracy undermines their very lucrative stranglehold on popular culture.  Get rid of that stranglehold, and what happens?  Is it the death of culture in our country?  I think it might actually allow culture to flourish in a lot of new ways.

I hope you're right; I wish you were right.  And, I think you're going to be right in the long run, when and if internet content providers find ways to monopolize the public's attention as effectively as the old TV networks or major record companies did.  Or (far preferably) if unimagined new models for reaching sizable audiences emerge and get a foothold.  But that hasn't happened yet, IMO.

Offline Jude

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #63 on: August 11, 2011, 11:46:59 PM »
Sorry if I mangled your context, but my point is that this is precisely what is no longer happening:  artists are no longer able to find large audiences, and vice versa, because the publicity machines have been shut down.  The necessary function of those publicity machines has not been picked up by anything else, including all the innovative distribution mechanisms on the internet -- not even iTunes -- not yet at least, not in meaningful numbers.  There's far far far more music and art and writing and video available to the masses than at any previous time in human history, but people aren't finding the quality stuff from amidst the ocean of dreck, except in very small numbers that don't even add up to a living wage for the creators.
This isn't the fault of piracy, it's a phenomenon that is occurring because of changes in communication technology known as "media niching."  Thanks to the internet and other technological advances it is now easier than ever to produce and distribute media, but the population hasn't drastically risen, so there are more types of media competing for the same amount of viewers.  In terms of supply and demand, the demand has not risen but the supply has vastly.  Even superior quality media will be hurt by this as people with a taste for lower quality or niche media (stuff that appeals to them as a person in some unique way but would not be viable in the larger market) overtakes mainstream media.

This is largely good; I listen to a podcast every week that appeals to me more than any mainstream radio products do, for instance.  However, it has a negative impact on news, because now there are large segments of the population receiving news from disreputable sources that appeal to their extremist inclinations (such as Glenn Beck -- he's launch an internet channel called GBTV soon, for example).

And while it's true that not all artists are capable of making a living wage on what they do, the podcasters I listen to for instance don't make enough to support themselves while doing it, those who do appeal to a wide enough audience still can.  You're seeing fewer of them because people are getting more of what they want from more individualized sources.

This is why the TV, radio, music, and even gaming industries are hurting now:  NOT piracy.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #64 on: August 11, 2011, 11:50:12 PM »
@rick957

I admit that I've not been into popular music (I like a certain Wincester in Supernatural like music before 1990) but I dont' think Piracy is hurting the music industry at all. Jude's comment about 'niching' fits more closely.

Despite the possible GOBS of cash lost to pirates (and I think its' inflated), Media producers are making record sales of CDs and Albums.

Offline Will

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2011, 12:14:33 AM »
Will (and Callie) -- Katy Perry and Lady Gaga are very literally the exceptions that prove the rule, that the old media publicity machines can no longer penetrate the public consciousness on behalf of new artists; those are the only two younger artists that most people can name off the top of their head ... the only two to emerge in the past five to ten years; and they succeeded only with the full financial backing of the same old monolithic record companies.  Take any period of five to ten years prior to the most recent, and you'll find far more debut artists that "made it," at least for a moment, into the main thoroughfare of pop culture ...
Do you have any evidence of the bolded portion?  Because I have to say, that is absolutely and completely false.  You think I stopped listing names because I ran out?

Quote
Where are the dozens of previously-unknown, young bands making their living off fans reached through the internet?  So far they're just a pipe dream, a fiction created by the non-stop technology-hype sector of the media, an appealing promise that never materializes.
Where are they?  On the margins of the public consciousness, thanks to the efforts of the very active publicity machine, that's where.  So far, it definitely is a pipe dream, because the whole industry is fighting the future in every way possible.

Quote
The new distribution mechanisms are in place and are easier and more democratic than ever before.  It's the publicity problem that's proven insurmountable thus far.  As someone smarter than me said somewhere, people's attention is the new commodity of the internet age.  We have more options and alternatives than ever, but we've lost the means to guide us all to the creative work ("content") worthy of our attention.  The only ones profiting thus far from new distribution means are artists whom people learned about from the old big-business publicity machines; they can now cut out the middlemen and reach their old fans directly, which is great.  But the unknown new artists are S.O.L.
Personally, I can guide myself to the content I consider worthy of my attention.  I have no problem doing that.  I'm quite sure I can find the stuff I want with more accuracy and regularity than big business has ever been able to, so I don't really lose anything with their future demise.

Quote
I hope you're right; I wish you were right.  And, I think you're going to be right in the long run, when and if internet content providers find ways to monopolize the public's attention as effectively as the old TV networks or major record companies did.  Or (far preferably) if unimagined new models for reaching sizable audiences emerge and get a foothold.  But that hasn't happened yet, IMO.
But why do the audiences have to be sizable?  Why is it bad that, instead of a few stagnant artists monopolizing the public's attention, we might have a huge, vibrant pool of artists cutting out little overlapping pieces of the market?  You keep pressing the idea of artists making a living from their art; I don't understand why that's so important.

Offline rick957

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2011, 01:18:27 AM »
@Jude

Very good points, ones that I don't disagree with, but you're actually identifying the same phenomena that I was talking about (and giving it an original name, hehe -- is that your own invention?).  The public's attention is a vast pie that has been split into tinier slices.  There's a potential upside to this, the one you mentioned:  each of us can have our own customized experience, and in the best instances, it's an experience that targets our individual cravings more successfully and specifically.  The downsides to the same phenomena (the splintering of the audience) are the ones I mentioned -- 1) If large numbers of people are no longer enjoying the same content (that was formerly fed to them by the old big-media monopolies), they've actually lost something that used to bind them together, whether that's knowledge of the same songs or movies or TV shows or whatever.  And, 2) as you and I both mentioned, the total money spent by the public on arts or entertainment is getting split into smaller chunks and distributed amongst a larger number of recipients, so that the payoff for each individual is smaller and less likely to add up to a living wage.

We're looking at the same thing from two different angles and drawing different conclusions about it, but those conclusions aren't at odds with each other, IMO.  Your points don't necessarily conflict with or contradict what I was saying, from what I can tell.  Maybe you see it differently though.

@Will

Quote
You think I stopped listing names because I ran out?

Uhhh ... yes?  :)  I believe you if you say that's not the case, though.  You would have to do some work to convince me that there are others whom lots of people have heard of; it's not something that's easy to quantify unless you want to go look up sales figures or something.  I'm not personally invested enough in this issue to go do research to support my opinions, I'm afraid, but you're also free to think my claims are horseshit.

Quote
But why do the audiences have to be sizable?  Why is it bad that, instead of a few stagnant artists monopolizing the public's attention, we might have a huge, vibrant pool of artists cutting out little overlapping pieces of the market?  You keep pressing the idea of artists making a living from their art; I don't understand why that's so important.

This is a very significant point to me.  You're right that I think the audiences ought to be sizable enough to somehow earn the artists a living wage. 

I recently read a quote from Francis Ford Coppola in which he lauded the virtues of artists making their living off something other than their art; he made the claim (perhaps rightly, I wouldn't know) that historically speaking, most major artists have had to earn their living off their day jobs and create their masterpieces on the side, and that arrangement accounts for most of the great art down through the ages.  And he said the notion of rock stars and the like living off their creative work was a 20th century-only development and basically an aberration which is now coming to an end, as fewer and fewer musicians live off their music alone, rock or otherwise.  So if you like the idea of artists needing day jobs and doing art in their free time, you're in pretty exalted company. 

I didn't hear his full rationale and may have misinterpreted the quotes, but I disagree with his position for the following reason:  I think art is important; not all, but at least some is extremely important, and far more important than all kinds of other things that everyone considers important enough to merit full-time effort, not just attention as a pastime or on the side.  I can list dozens of works of art made by full-time artists which I consider pricelessly valuable.  I also know of many artists -- some responsible for those priceless works I mentioned -- who were forced at other times in their careers to support themselves with non-creative day jobs that may or may not have limited their ability to produce further masterpieces.  Frankly, I mourn the loss of the work they might have done.  If artists have true gifts that have immense value to a society, what kind of society requires even its great artists to toil away doing other things when they would rather exercise those gifts for the obvious benefit of all?  That's my feeling at least.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 01:20:21 AM by rick957 »

Offline Jude

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2011, 01:07:19 PM »
I guess where we differ is that...

1)  I think it's more meaningful to relate to your niche than to have watercooler topics to relate to the society as a whole (we are humans after all, and have plenty of things to relate on -- finding a subculture where you belong is much more rewarding).

2)  Back in the 80s and 90s in the era of blockbuster media the proceeds were concentrated beyond the amount of a "living wage" in pop idols and celebrities.  So the question becomes:  what's better, Madonna making 3 million in 1 year or 3 people making 1 million in a year?  I personally think the latter; I don't think the absolute number of people making a living on their artistic dreams has gone down.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2011, 03:36:25 PM »
This is a very significant point to me.  You're right that I think the audiences ought to be sizable enough to somehow earn the artists a living wage. 

I recently read a quote from Francis Ford Coppola in which he lauded the virtues of artists making their living off something other than their art; he made the claim (perhaps rightly, I wouldn't know) that historically speaking, most major artists have had to earn their living off their day jobs and create their masterpieces on the side, and that arrangement accounts for most of the great art down through the ages.  And he said the notion of rock stars and the like living off their creative work was a 20th century-only development and basically an aberration which is now coming to an end, as fewer and fewer musicians live off their music alone, rock or otherwise.  So if you like the idea of artists needing day jobs and doing art in their free time, you're in pretty exalted company.

Historically, most major artists have been aristocracy or directly under aristocratic patrons. One of de Tocqueville's bigger criticisms of America was his fear that art and science would be forced to suffer in an egalitarian society because (horror of horrors!) artists would actually have to work. His fears turned out to be bullshit.

You seem to think that artists are untapped resources of infinite genius potential that must be discovered, nurtured, and supported, that any time an artist spends not popping out new art is a waste and tragedy. As an artist and scientist I can tell you that that is just not true. The idea of an artist as a 'gifted' person is fallacy. The idea that they have to be nurtured, supported, and patronized, is not only fallacy but actively condescending. It's an annoying old world idea that is being actively sold to artists by publishers because they want to be able to say: "You need us to give you money and foster your genius! You need us to let you reach your true potential!" It's plainly and simply a scam.

I'm also with Jude here, but I'll go even further than 3 people making a million and say that I would prefer 30 people making ~$100,000 yr. Since when did a 'living wage' turn into a million+? Again, bloated figures made by a publishing industry invested in luring naive content creators in with rags to riches stories.

Offline rick957

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2011, 01:04:21 PM »
Oh well, I suppose one should expect to be disagreed with whenever one expresses a view that goes against conventional wisdom or the prevailing sentiments in a particular venue.  Still, it's nice to be disagreed with in an intelligent and civil manner.  :)

@Jude: 

Quote
1)  I think it's more meaningful to relate to your niche than to have watercooler topics to relate to the society as a whole (we are humans after all, and have plenty of things to relate on -- finding a subculture where you belong is much more rewarding).

Can't disagree with you there.  Nonetheless, I don't find it so easy to forge meaningful connections with strangers that I don't mourn the loss of points of common interest such as those pop culture sometimes provides.  Discovering that an entire arena filled with complete strangers knows the lyrics to a song well enough to sing them along with you and the musician on stage is quite an exhilarating and astonishing experience, one I've shared with many others my age and older; I hope there are similar pleasant surprises in store for younger generations, whether or not the contexts change.

Quote
2)  Back in the 80s and 90s in the era of blockbuster media the proceeds were concentrated beyond the amount of a "living wage" in pop idols and celebrities.  So the question becomes:  what's better, Madonna making 3 million in 1 year or 3 people making 1 million in a year?  I personally think the latter; I don't think the absolute number of people making a living on their artistic dreams has gone down.

Again we agree, except that I have yet to see evidence that the money is getting spread out to a larger number of deserving artists.  So far, almost all the evidence I've heard of that happening has come in the form of wishful thinking from media sources who have a vested interest in promoting technological advancement as a panacea.  The hard numbers for the music industry at least all point to the opposite conclusion, that everyone is struggling and fewer artists are reaching even the modest levels of success made possible by the old methods that have fallen by the wayside.

@DarklingAlice:

Quote
You seem to think that artists are untapped resources of infinite genius potential that must be discovered, nurtured, and supported, that any time an artist spends not popping out new art is a waste and tragedy. As an artist and scientist I can tell you that that is just not true. The idea of an artist as a 'gifted' person is fallacy. The idea that they have to be nurtured, supported, and patronized, is not only fallacy but actively condescending. It's an annoying old world idea that is being actively sold to artists by publishers because they want to be able to say: "You need us to give you money and foster your genius! You need us to let you reach your true potential!" It's plainly and simply a scam.

It so happens that this isn't my personal view either, just to clarify.  I'm of the opinion that artists and non-artists alike have individual gifts in one or many areas, and those gifts ought to be nurtured and supported by others so that everyone can benefit from each other's talents.  I do think that not all artists have talent in the area of business or promotion, and some of those non-artists who do ought to exercise their talents on behalf of artists so that the artists can focus on what they do best instead.  I don't know if you and I agree on those points, but I hope you don't find my actual views to be quite so condescending or fallacious.

Thanks for the dialog.  :)

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2011, 11:29:31 AM »
Can't disagree with you there.  Nonetheless, I don't find it so easy to forge meaningful connections with strangers that I don't mourn the loss of points of common interest such as those pop culture sometimes provides.  Discovering that an entire arena filled with complete strangers knows the lyrics to a song well enough to sing them along with you and the musician on stage is quite an exhilarating and astonishing experience, one I've shared with many others my age and older; I hope there are similar pleasant surprises in store for younger generations, whether or not the contexts change.
Having never been a stadium concert sort of person, I genuinely don't know the answer here: But is this really on the decline? I know stadium concerts are still happening but I really know little about the concert music scene at large.

It so happens that this isn't my personal view either, just to clarify.  I'm of the opinion that artists and non-artists alike have individual gifts in one or many areas, and those gifts ought to be nurtured and supported by others so that everyone can benefit from each other's talents.  I do think that not all artists have talent in the area of business or promotion, and some of those non-artists who do ought to exercise their talents on behalf of artists so that the artists can focus on what they do best instead.  I don't know if you and I agree on those points, but I hope you don't find my actual views to be quite so condescending or fallacious.
I definitely agree that a community of artists working with artists is a much better solution than artists working with businessmen.

The specious point here is your 'gift' argument. It's an overly simplistic way of looking at the artistic (or indeed any kind of) process. It makes artists seem like Marvel mutants. Not only does it give aspiring artists a skewed notion of the work involved (which is why publishers love to push this idea of natural talents who just have to be 'discovered' to strike it rich), it also keeps many people who would otherwise attempt art from doing so 'because they just don't have the gift'. It's a lie told to the artistic and non-artistic alike. And it smacks of those inane notions like 'Males/Jews/Asians/PickOne are naturally more talented at math and quantitative reasoning' that still stick around our societies. That's why I find it offensive. And I don't think you intend it that way at all, but it is frustrating to me to run into such misguided common notions. Although I suppose this discussion begins to range a little far afield, ne?

So I'll just leave this here and be done ^_^

Offline Alice Wonder

  • Wonderland's Whackjob
  • Lord
  • Orgiest
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Location: Northern California
  • Gender: Male
  • Um, Mistress? What do you mean you lost the key?
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2011, 05:30:51 PM »
I occasionally pirate, but not a lot.

Let me give some examples, and how I justify them to myself. Now, when I say justify them to myself, I know it is still a violation of US and International copyright law, and I am willing to suffer the consequences if I am ever taken to court.

1) A couple musicians from the 80s, they were not big label, most people never heard of them. One had a video make MTV but they only showed it twice. I had every tape of theirs, and played them until they wore out. One of the artists, her label did not feel it was worth the effort to digitally remaster her early work, and she basically went out of print. I found vinyl rips of her early stuff, and grabbed it. The other, his stuff was digitally remastered but also went out of print. When he wanted to get his band back together for a single concert, he asked his label if they could do a short run of his discography. They refused. He asked for a short run of just his greatest hits. They refused. He offered to finance the pressing himself (he had made money in cinematography since then), they refused. So on stage, he told his fans "My old label won't let us offer you our music anymore, so if you find rips of it on online, have at it, I don't care" - technically and legally, it is still piracy, but that was when I stopped looking for CDs of his work to replace my worn out tapes on eBay and just downloaded it.

2) I am member of a closed invitation only site that torrents television shows. I only use it for shows where I intend to purchase the season when released (IE Stargate, Sons of Anarchy, etc.) or for time shifting. With respect to time shifting, most of the shows I like can already be legally time shifted via my cable company, but their compression is so horrid - especially in dark low contrast scenes. The encoding done by the torrent scene is a hell of a lot better quality, and I can watch it on my PC.

3) I use Linux exclusively, and netflix on demand does not offer a Linux client. For some shows I could watch via netflix with my wii, I just torrent them and watch them on my PC.

-=-

I do understand the value of US/INTL copyright law, and I comprehend my self justifications are just that - it's still illegal, but I don't really care, not for the use cases where I do it.

Offline Bayushi

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2011, 12:33:46 AM »
3) I use Linux exclusively, and netflix on demand does not offer a Linux client. For some shows I could watch via netflix with my wii, I just torrent them and watch them on my PC.
Not to derail the thread, but this comment made me think of a single word.

PEBKAC.

 /evilgrin

Offline Jude

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2011, 01:20:07 PM »
I can't speak of the music industry in particular Rick, I haven't done the research, but this is definitely true for Video Games.  The number of big budget blockbuster entries is shrinking slowly as the Apple Ap Store continues to redirect and even broaden the gaming audience in new ways.  PC Indie developers have found a way to spread their creations through digital distribution platforms like Desura and Stream.  However, the only people lamenting these changes in the gaming space are the big companies:  consumers are seeing more and more sales on what, 5 years ago, was a 60 dollar product that remained at 60 dollars for at least 6 month after its release.

You still have blockbusters too, Call of Duty and Skyrim will resonate with all audiences (except maybe the iPhone only crowd), there's just fewer of them.  It's lonelier at the top.

But in exchange there are a lot more people making a living -- or a respectable side revenue stream -- off of indie development.

Offline rick957

Re: Piracy, Torrenting, Copyright Laws, Kanye Wests Gold Plated Jet
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2011, 01:42:28 PM »
@Jude

That's great to hear.  I'm totally uninformed about the world of video games, so it's especially interesting to learn about.  I'd love to learn about similar things happening in other arts/entertainment mediums as well, although I've come to distrust many media sources due to all the empty hype in most technology coverage.