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Author Topic: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol  (Read 3120 times)

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Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« on: July 19, 2011, 01:13:25 PM »
Beware of bad philosophy



aaaaaaaaaaaaaand what is your take on the arguments posed... ;D  I heard way to much of this back in college..lmao..now, years later... my brain  ??? lol again!!!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 01:15:05 PM by WhiteTigerForever »

Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2011, 01:20:28 PM »

We do not exist, but are an illusion based on an almagamation of our various senses come together to creative the illusion of self... DeCarte... "I think, ergo I am"

The Buddhist philosophy, "I am ergo I think"  XD  But what is I, in assuming anything?  lol


What most don't know is that an argument may be false yet still be a perfectly valid in format argument! hee hee
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 01:24:11 PM by WhiteTigerForever »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2011, 01:27:23 PM »
But did Decartes
Depart
With the thought
'Therefore, I'm not'?

Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2011, 01:28:30 PM »
But did Decartes
Depart
With the thought
'Therefore, I'm not'?

aaaaaaaaaaha ha ha ha.. love it... Why is everything you say hysterical Oniya....???   ;D

Offline Alsheriam

Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2011, 02:08:58 PM »
For one, I can barely bring myself to take anything by Ayn Rand seriously. It makes things worse when a ton of conservatives try to sound intellectual by quoting Ayn Rand, whose work itself I view as faulty.

On the other hand, neither can I take theists seriously. It takes a great leap of logic to be utterly convinced that there's an invisible man in the sky who loves me and has a great life plan for me that will take place only if I accept his mortal son as his savior. In my view, anyone who accepts such a thing has already set a precedent for faulty logic and therefore is unqualified to talk about philosophy.

Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2011, 02:11:39 PM »
For one, I can barely bring myself to take anything by Ayn Rand seriously. It makes things worse when a ton of conservatives try to sound intellectual by quoting Ayn Rand, whose work itself I view as faulty.

On the other hand, neither can I take theists seriously. It takes a great leap of logic to be utterly convinced that there's an invisible man in the sky who loves me and has a great life plan for me that will take place only if I accept his mortal son as his savior. In my view, anyone who accepts such a thing has already set a precedent for faulty logic and therefore is unqualified to talk about philosophy.

I agree!!! But I thought the whole paradox debate was fun to watch and they potificate, resulting in nothing between all the arguments!!! lol

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2011, 08:54:00 PM »
I once saw a customer review of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason (and it wasn't an old translation) at Amazon which described his book (one of the most epoch-making works of philosophy, if you'd ask most historians of the subject) as follows: "I had only read about twenty pages into this book before I realized that Kant was being downright rude to us by being so verbose. Did he think everyone had time to follow his long-winded and nebulous arguments!? (---)"  :D



Offline Alsheriam

Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2011, 08:56:51 PM »
Hey, now you know why Kant is commonly known as "cunt" at the Philosophy departments all over!

Kant was such a horrible writer... and it really put me to sleep when I had to study his work. But yet again on the flipside, Nietzsche was too good of a writer for his own good - his metaphors were so florid I had to struggle to comprehend his ideas.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2011, 09:05:08 PM »
"I read Capital at age 15; I am acquainted with the works of Lein" /typo for Lenin/

-Lee Harvey Oswald in a 1963 letter to the chairman of the American Communist Party, trying desperately to impress him and make contact with the party - which leaves the question open if LHO was a communist at this point or an FBI bogeyman. Quoted by Norman Mailer in Oswald's Tale. Oswald wasn't very good at persuading people when he got nervous.

I can't recall anyone else who claimed to have read Marx in his own words at 15, though I guess some school kids would have in China and the Soviet Union.

Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2011, 09:08:10 PM »
aaaaaaaaaha ha ha ha ha.... I love it you guys... XD!!!

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2011, 09:52:02 PM »
One more instance of ultra-left wing posing. In a tv documentary I saw some years back, they told the story of the Rebels, a Maoist student sect that leaped on to the stage of radical politics at universities in Sweden in early 1968. Guided by a charismatic exile Spaniard, they placed themselves as the next big thing in the rapidly building flora of radical/revolutionary parties and networks, set up a strict adherence to the thinking of Mao Zedong and the Cultural Revolution (which no one really knew first hand at the time: the People's Republic of China was pretty much locked except to high-profile visitors) and prepared for the revolution with strict discipline. At one point, part of the core of the group decided to go to the embassy of the PRC in Stockholm and ask to be accepted as Chinese citizens and members of the People's Liberation Army. The ambassador, who was an experienced man, saw at once that it was absolutely impossible, it would have been miles beyond his mission and would even have been illegal under the laws of the host country; you're not allowed to recruit soldiers to another country's armed forces in Sweden.

When he politely told them he couldn't heed their plea, though he appreciated their sympathy and interest in Chinese politics, the leader of the group decided at once that this man was an enemy of the Chinese people and of Mao Zedong. He clearly belonged to the reactionary old guard, whom Mao had said you needed to weed out. The response from the Rebels, then, was to start a criticism/self-criticism session with the Ambassador and his staff, the way they had heard it was being done in China, hectoring them for not being up to date with what was going on in China and non-versed in the thinking of Chairman Mao. The embassy people didn't want to call the cops to evict the men, this could easily have thrust the whole thing into the newspapers and made the embassy come out very badly, or even as potential spies, and they seem to have had insufficient means to expel the students with their own embassy guards - again, they were probably nervous about what these guys might tell their friends or the news media. So the session dragged on for at least two hours of heated disputation and lecturing by the left-wing students about why the Chinese diplomats were out of touch with their leader. The Rebels fell apart about six months later.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 09:59:07 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2011, 10:27:37 PM »
ooooooooohhhhh that is awesome to learn about.. thank you sooo much for sharing <3

Offline Syauglan

Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2011, 11:04:33 PM »
Hey, now you know why Kant is commonly known as "cunt" at the Philosophy departments all over!

Kant was such a horrible writer... and it really put me to sleep when I had to study his work. But yet again on the flipside, Nietzsche was too good of a writer for his own good - his metaphors were so florid I had to struggle to comprehend his ideas.
I consider it fortunate I never had to study Kant's actual texts when I took Philosophy. All I read were a couple of books that condensed and clarified major areas of his thinking so I would understand how it related to other philosophers. The most difficult philosopher I had to read was Hegel. Although I actually enjoyed his thinking his writing was another matter.

Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2011, 11:32:00 PM »
My most difficult was Aristotle, the foundations of which the Eastern Orthodox Christian and Catholics used as their basis for arguments for centuries.  Possibly the block could come from my complete lack of his reference point, being  not a Christian then either and it was a Philosophy of Religions class.  It was great fun, buuuuuut... Aristotle to this day is used heavily and as far as I'm concerned, anyone who argues with that mindset already has their waters polluted, even though that is a logical fallacy... lmao...

Hey, now you know why Kant is commonly known as "cunt" at the Philosophy departments all over!

Kant was such a horrible writer... and it really put me to sleep when I had to study his work. But yet again on the flipside, Nietzsche was too good of a writer for his own good - his metaphors were so florid I had to struggle to comprehend his ideas.

Oh, and Mr. Emanuel Kant was almost as crazy as Kierkagard...lmao and any philosophy dept. will use the excuse to be total pervs.... they are notorious for hitting on the students and "Extra Credit" work.

Lol, Even one of mine tried and that is how I got an original copy of Bertrand Russel's A History of Western Philosophy, for which he won a Nobel prize for... XD ;)

I found Fredrick Nietzsche hard to read also..lol
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 11:41:42 PM by WhiteTigerForever »

Offline Alsheriam

Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2011, 11:44:10 PM »
I wouldn't exactly say that Kant and Kierkegaard were nuts, though Kierkegaard was a bit exotic to me in trying to justify the "leap of faith" by coining "Absurdism".

Kant was a pretty chill guy in my view - he was quite the pious, ethical man who tried to rationalize God into a quantifiable code of ethics by coining things like a priori goodness in man and all of those other a priori stuff like Categorical Imperative. But I would say that his efforts eventually backfired in his face. Instead of bringing more people to God, he was too successful in that attempt and helped people to be convinced that one could certainly live a good and ethical life through Reason and have no particular need for God.

Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2011, 11:48:00 PM »
I wouldn't exactly say that Kant and Kierkegaard were nuts, though Kierkegaard was a bit exotic to me in trying to justify the "leap of faith" by coining "Absurdism".

Kant was a pretty chill guy in my view - he was quite the pious, ethical man who tried to rationalize God into a quantifiable code of ethics by coining things like a priori goodness in man and all of those other a priori stuff like Categorical Imperative. But I would say that his efforts eventually backfired in his face. Instead of bringing more people to God, he was too successful in that attempt and helped people to be convinced that one could certainly live a good and ethical life through Reason and have no particular need for God.

indeed... that he did in results over all... but now shall we move on to another great topic of the empiricists... XD... Shall we start with Berkley, Hume and Locke.. XD  (if I remember correctly??? and the spelling (lol)  That is actually a title of one of my books..XD...

and Bertrand Russel's Boook "Death of the Soul" I so loved!  ;D
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 11:50:31 PM by WhiteTigerForever »

Offline Syauglan

Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2011, 12:37:03 AM »
Oh. Kierkegaard is one of my favourite philosophers. I know the "leap of faith" is awkward (for some) but there is so much more to him.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2011, 01:44:24 AM »
I attempted to read Bertrand Russel's Principia once, but that was merely proof of how crazy I really am.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2011, 03:43:34 AM »
I attempted to read Bertrand Russel's Principia once, but that was merely proof of how crazy I really am.

Sounds like going straight on Plato's Parmenides - much briefer but with a reputation of being one of his densest dialogues, and one of the most logic-centered.

The one piece by Kant I've read in full - and it's just a few pages long - is his brief essay Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?. It was written a few years before the French revolution, shows he could be perfectly concise and sets out an attitude of independence of mind and free debate that's very appealing.

Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2011, 08:47:08 AM »
Sounds like going straight on Plato's Parmenides - much briefer but with a reputation of being one of his densest dialogues, and one of the most logic-centered.

The one piece by Kant I've read in full - and it's just a few pages long - is his brief essay Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?. It was written a few years before the French revolution, shows he could be perfectly concise and sets out an attitude of independence of mind and free debate that's very appealing.

Personally I love Plato and his way of teaching by asking questions and letting his students contemplate and use their own logic skills to draw conclusions.  What makes me laugh when Plato is brought up is because of the Atlantean myth.  That was first brought up as an allegory, posing a hypothetical situation and drew in his students for answers.  There is no record or anything that even a city carried that name...lol.. and from then on it was taken as fact, Like Le Morte D'Athur and the story of King Arthur...lmao.. both complete fiction and quite hysterical how so many over the centuries have taken these works as real events in time and real people... XD (though there have been suggestions leading to a Roman General and the Welsh Mabinogion being the primal source for the King Arthur story, but it was first written in Ireland, not Wales..lol)


I attempted to read Bertrand Russel's Principia once, but that was merely proof of how crazy I really am.

Oniya is not crazy...she is a vital piece of sanity here...lmao and her grounding humor always gets me!!!
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 08:49:20 AM by WhiteTigerForever »

Offline CJ

Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2011, 07:06:20 AM »
To argue that God does not exist on the basis that  - if God created the universe then he must exist as part of the universe and therefore how could he create the universe - is itself a fallacy based on an over reliance on cause and effect.  The universe according to scientific enquiry and big big theory did indeed spring from a nothing or a singularity, which at the very least challenges the first law of thermodynamics, summarised as energy can neither be created or destroyed, also born out of scientific enquiry.  Also Quantum physics is rife with examples of particles that pop into and out of existence.  Cause and effect seems so obvious and so much a part of our day to day reality, however that does not make it a universal law.

The thing is the proving of disproving of God is generally futile as the concept of God is so subjective, ranging from White bearded old man in the clouds, to the pure and limitless awareness that infuses all things with presence. it is a bit like trying to prove or disprove  a + b = c.

We live in a reality that doesn't respect our laws - Things can spring from nothing while at the same time energy can not be destroyed.  Doesn't make sense? Well nor does football to an ant.




Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2011, 08:31:06 AM »
To argue that God does not exist on the basis that  - if God created the universe then he must exist as part of the universe and therefore how could he create the universe - is itself a fallacy based on an over reliance on cause and effect. 

It is an over reliance of the rationalized system of cause and effect but such has been established over and over again via scientific experiments over the years.  This system of cause and effect does not make the assumption of a God, but a natural observation(s) from experiments conducted here, in this world.  To make the assumption of a God put into this is a far jump, non linear nor logical.

The universe according to scientific enquiry and big big theory did indeed spring from a nothing or a singularity, which at the very least challenges the first law of thermodynamics, summarised as energy can neither be created or destroyed, also born out of scientific enquiry.

In the universe as we know it, with the energy already spread from the hypothesized singularity point, cooled down, thus the summarized laws that Matter can not be created nor destroyed  within a given system, to finish the law.. lol.  This is the system now, and as such, energy is in a constant process of transformation from one form to another.  This is an observation from within the system, again after billions of years of the cooling down process, natural laws of interactions came into being and we, today, on our small world with our small selves attempt to understand the vastness of it all...

Astrophysicists have a mathematical model, shown by various observations and equations the potential for a minimum of 11 dimensions intersecting ours all at the same time as well as the existence of a 2nd universe. (Though remains to be physically proven)

Also Quantum physics is rife with examples of particles that pop into and out of existence.  Cause and effect seems so obvious and so much a part of our day to day reality, however that does not make it a universal law.

I am not familiarized enough to agree nor disagree with your points, but I highly doubt that they simply pop into and out of existence, just as the singularity point has a strong possible source, but that does not mean a being of "Divinity" is behind it. 

The thing is the proving of disproving of God is generally futile as the concept of God is so subjective, ranging from White bearded old man in the clouds, to the pure and limitless awareness that infuses all things with presence. it is a bit like trying to prove or disprove  a + b = c.

I disagree, as the philosophers through the ages have a great mass of work attributed to prove such things, but it is the individual, with the agenda, that determines what they choose to use as their reference point and/or basis for such... I personally find no logic that leads me to such a conclusion that a "God" type being exists at all... but conditioned genesis does carry weight for our systems existence all to the way to our meager existence. 

again, as pointed before... basic law of intro algebra... A+B=c, thus A-C=B... lol 


We live in a reality that doesn't respect our laws - Things can spring from nothing while at the same time energy can not be destroyed.  Doesn't make sense? Well nor does football to an ant.

It makes sense that we have yet so much to learn, but that doesn't mean, again that an all powerful being is the cause of such...

Valid argument:

God created the universe,
Evil existst,
ergo, God is evil... lmao 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 08:32:25 AM by WhiteTigerForever »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2011, 10:46:49 AM »
The thing is the proving of disproving of God is generally futile as the concept of God is so subjective, ranging from White bearded old man in the clouds, to the pure and limitless awareness that infuses all things with presence. it is a bit like trying to prove or disprove  a + b = c.

That's somewhere in Principia.  I think they got to it in Volume 2.  ;D

Offline WhiteTigerForeverTopic starter

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2011, 01:42:27 PM »
That's somewhere in Principia.  I think they got to it in Volume 2.  ;D

hee hee hee... you just go Oniya..XD!!!

Offline Oniya

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Re: Beware of Bad Philosophy!!! lol
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2011, 01:47:34 PM »
That one I was actually quite serious on.  ;D  Russell's Principia Mathematica (co-written with Alfred Whitehead) is a massive (3-volume) work that tries to break mathematics down to utter brass-tacks using 'symbolic logic'.  A large part of Volume 1 is spent 'proving' the existence of '1'.  Then there's a whole bit on defining addition.  Somewhere in there, they prove the existence of '2' and that '1+1=2'.  (This was why I picked the thing up in the first place - I wanted to see how it could be done.)