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Author Topic: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games  (Read 42266 times)

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Offline MasterMischief

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #550 on: September 23, 2011, 08:24:25 PM »
I had to quite a group recently because the cheeze was just too much.  I had a player who Alternate Power pretty much all of his Willpower off of Quickness (Mental Only).  The concept was that his mind worked too fast to be controlled.  Fine if you buy them seperately.  Trying to get the cost savings from AP?  Bzzzzzt!

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #551 on: September 23, 2011, 08:25:59 PM »


Line up in the back of the book

Spring 2012: (VTM) Children of the Revolution
Summer 2012 (WTA) Werewolf 20th
Fall 2012: (MTA) Mage Convention Book
Winter 2012-2013: (VTM) Hunters Hunted 2.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #552 on: September 23, 2011, 08:26:33 PM »
Cross posting.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #553 on: September 23, 2011, 08:29:51 PM »
I had to quite a group recently because the cheeze was just too much.  I had a player who Alternate Power pretty much all of his Willpower off of Quickness (Mental Only).  The concept was that his mind worked too fast to be controlled.  Fine if you buy them seperately.  Trying to get the cost savings from AP?  Bzzzzzt!

Did you remind this player that it is a free action that can only be done once per round to move between Alternate Powers?  Linking everything together as alternate powers is not a good idea -- especially defensive powers linked to offensive powers, which force you to choose between having access to your attack and your defenses every round ...

Alternate Power isn't really cheesy in practice because of that limitation -- it just means that you can get alternative uses for something you're already paying for without having to buy it twice (having to buy, say, an area blast and a single-target blast separately at PL-appropriate ranks will use up like a third of your PP if you don't use AP).  If you use Alternate Power for stuff that isn't mutually exclusive (like, I don't know, flight and defense), the result is falling out of the sky when you try to protect against someone's attack. :p
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 08:32:00 PM by meikle »

Online Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #554 on: September 23, 2011, 08:53:49 PM »
I keep hearing about these builds.   ;D

Why do I get all the freakin' combat monkeys?
Could it be that you actually run games that are attractive to combat monkeys :D?

I am one of those that sees it as a feature.  Allowing one character to monopolize the spotlight 50% of the time (the combat twink and 50% is an overgenerous assessment in my opinion) is not fun for the other players.  I want all the characters to contribute equally in combat regardless of their other capabilities.
I read this as "50% of the time in a session is combat". Also, combat is important enough that you consider it its own area, unrelated to others. Is my reading right?
And yeah, if I'm right, I can definitely see how a combat monkey would enjoy that ;D!
Those same guys would just leave the games I tend to run, though. So it's not that I don't get combat monkeys, they just leave my games because I don't cater to them. Less than one fight per average session isn't much fun to these guys, I've noticed. And I'm talking about my Exalted game here, which had more fights than the current one, not to mention they took longer to resolve >:)!
I admit I had more combat monkeys when I was throwing more fights at the players. Then I stopped giving them fights just so they wouldn't be bored, had some people leave the group, and found a couple replacement players. Personally, I find that it's very much worth the hassle :P!
For me, the first step was when I started using systems where resolving the fight takes just a few minutes, so even a couple fights didn't give the combat monkeys their "fix" ;).

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #555 on: September 23, 2011, 10:22:49 PM »
Could it be that you actually run games that are attractive to combat monkeys :D?
I read this as "50% of the time in a session is combat". Also, combat is important enough that you consider it its own area, unrelated to others. Is my reading right?
And yeah, if I'm right, I can definitely see how a combat monkey would enjoy that ;D!
Those same guys would just leave the games I tend to run, though. So it's not that I don't get combat monkeys, they just leave my games because I don't cater to them. Less than one fight per average session isn't much fun to these guys, I've noticed. And I'm talking about my Exalted game here, which had more fights than the current one, not to mention they took longer to resolve >:)!
I admit I had more combat monkeys when I was throwing more fights at the players. Then I stopped giving them fights just so they wouldn't be bored, had some people leave the group, and found a couple replacement players. Personally, I find that it's very much worth the hassle :P!
For me, the first step was when I started using systems where resolving the fight takes just a few minutes, so even a couple fights didn't give the combat monkeys their "fix" ;).
Interesting... For once, you and I read something the same way. I actually average at about the same combat ratio, though I try to make the combat epic and important when it comes up. Otherwise, there's not much drama is there?

EDIT: Also, note that my typical players have characters that could be considered hyper specialized for combat... They don't seem to get bored either.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 10:25:13 PM by Black Howling »

Offline Dhi

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #556 on: September 23, 2011, 10:46:41 PM »
Line up in the back of the book

Spring 2012: (VTM) Children of the Revolution
Summer 2012 (WTA) Werewolf 20th
Fall 2012: (MTA) Mage Convention Book
Winter 2012-2013: (VTM) Hunters Hunted 2.
Yesss! When they announced Vampire 20th, I immediately started hoping for a Werewolf 20th. Don't hold your breath, my so-called friends said. But I did, and the blackouts were worth it!

I never cared about Vampire, but I loved Werewolf! Unfortunately it was always second to the big seller. All this time I've been wondering where WtA would pick up if they did an anniversary treatment. I also lost some of my WtA books to flood damage, so I have a good excuse to pick it up.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #557 on: September 23, 2011, 10:56:33 PM »
Yesss! When they announced Vampire 20th, I immediately started hoping for a Werewolf 20th. Don't hold your breath, my so-called friends said. But I did, and the blackouts were worth it!

I never cared about Vampire, but I loved Werewolf! Unfortunately it was always second to the big seller. All this time I've been wondering where WtA would pick up if they did an anniversary treatment. I also lost some of my WtA books to flood damage, so I have a good excuse to pick it up.

Mage and Vampire were my favorites. I stole liberally from Hellblazer for my mage game.. John Constantine was the BANE of my players existance..he had, by one way or another, gotten them involved in the Ascension war.

Offline Genbu83

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #558 on: September 24, 2011, 01:12:19 AM »
Mage and Vampire were my favorites. I stole liberally from Hellblazer for my mage game.. John Constantine was the BANE of my players existance..he had, by one way or another, gotten them involved in the Ascension war.

Never got a chance to get into WoD. The players that i knew were somewhat snobbish...especially after learning I was interested in Hunter.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #559 on: September 24, 2011, 01:25:48 AM »
Never got a chance to get into WoD. The players that i knew were somewhat snobbish...especially after learning I was interested in Hunter.

I was very disappointed in Hunters.. I had high hopes with Hunters Hunter (the orginal hunters game accessory in Vampire) and it went way off the rails for what I waslooking for. Come to think of it I wanted something like Supernatural rather than what I got.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #560 on: September 24, 2011, 02:58:55 AM »
I was very disappointed in Hunters.. I had high hopes with Hunters Hunter (the orginal hunters game accessory in Vampire) and it went way off the rails for what I waslooking for. Come to think of it I wanted something like Supernatural rather than what I got.
'Hunter: The Vigil' had that feeling to it as well. Really pissed me off because I was looking forward to a supernatural styled game. It can be maneuvered to play well toward that kind of thing, but ultimately falls short of the true goal. GURPS can handle Supernatural styled games pretty well though, saying the players and GM aren't afraid of doing quite a bit of work to level the cinema to realism ratio out.

Also, in related news, I'm actually getting to play at home again! That's right, my roommate decided he'd run a game for me since I flopped on running the last game. >_>

Online Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #561 on: September 24, 2011, 05:24:23 AM »
Interesting... For once, you and I read something the same way.
That day should be recorded for the sake of history, it seems ;D O8)!
Which means we either misread it the same way, or it's true. But it's memorable anyway ;).

I actually average at about the same combat ratio, though I try to make the combat epic and important when it comes up. Otherwise, there's not much drama is there?
I fully agree. Although we might have different ideas of important here. To my PCs, even random muggings are important, because they know they can die in one of those.

EDIT: Also, note that my typical players have characters that could be considered hyper specialized for combat... They don't seem to get bored either.
I'm currently playing a character that's got penalties for being real ugly. Well, actually, he's a creepy alchemist with good fencing skills in a sword and sorcery game, so he fits the genre. He still keeps trying to persuade people, he just fails a lot :D!
And when he fails, it's memorable to hear him afterwards explaining people were too stupid to get his point, while in reality, the system made it clear they didn't even want to listen to his elaborate points >:). As I said, he fails more often than not, so it provides quite a bit of funny situations!

Also, glad to hear you got a game, what is your roommate running?

Offline Kate

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #562 on: September 24, 2011, 09:19:28 AM »
Quote
Quote
Quote from: Kate on September 18, 2011, 07:26:19 AM

    if another addition appeared they would get more players / buyers if

    a) The text was calligraphy and the paper of a texture and scent that smelled antique an authentic.
    b) Had character sheets and special pens that could easily be erased / re-done.
    c) Had all artwork not comical but realistic ... likely cg but with textures that seem in line with art during medievil periods.
    d) Simplifed the game mechanics
    e) Had more classes

f) mixed addictive drugs into the printing ink.
g) gave away a million dollars with every book purchased.
h) ended world hunger.

(Since I don't know what system you're referring to, these are things that would apply to any game).

EDIT: Actually, knowing gamers, ending world hunger would likely be met with widespread internet complaints about how they 'nerfed agriculture'.
- Glypth

Um .. I think my suggestions were realistic. some may not agree with more classes but the other suggestions were sensible enough not to be seen as childish.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #563 on: September 24, 2011, 09:33:44 AM »
I never said anything about childish, but realistic I'd disagree with quite a bit. Neither more classes nor simplified game mechanics are universally popular (as evidenced by the last page of discussion), and what would be the starting point for simplification? D&D? WoD? FATE? You didn't mention a game, and simplified mechanics for, say, FUDGE, is pretty much impossible. Artwork style is incredibly individual-tasted (and vary by game...realistic artwork in TOON would be absurd), and calligraphic text in rulebooks would be more likely to drive people away from the game...people want readability in their rules, not fanciness. Evidence, the WoD - they do their fluff text in fanciness, but they don't try to present rules the same way because it'd look horrible. Even reusable character sheets aren't that much of a draw in the age of dirt-cheap printing.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 09:46:02 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #564 on: September 24, 2011, 09:35:07 AM »
I thought Lunar's complaint was that it was 'too' balanced.

Yeah, that's pretty much it... the gist is apparently that in order for the game to work as intended, you have to have maxed out all of the four stats, regardless of whether you use the optional +/- rule. 

Say you have one character with a +10 to hit who is conceptually a highly proficient martial artist.

Then you have another player who wants to make a Brick.  Maybe he doesn't want a +10 to hit.  Maybe his concept is that he's a regular guy who's never been in a fight his whole life who happened to have obtained super powers last week.  He deserves (conceptually) no more than a +2 to hit... and the player doesn't want a +15 damage attack either.  He's fine with +10. 

So you end up with a martial artist with a +10 to hit and +10 damage and a Brick with a +2 to hit and +10 damage. 

Now the folks and developers on the M&M site will tell player two that he's not playing the game right.  Whether it makes sense or not, he needs to be maxed out.  That's what I see as a flaw.  The game is designed around such a strict set of guidelines that if you deviate from what your character "should" have, you end up with a character that doesn't work, regardless of concept.

I much prefer the old TSR Classic Marvel FASERIP system for superhero games.  I wish I had not spent so much money on all those M&M books.  Others' mileage may vary, but these are the reasons I don't care for the game.

Offline Kate

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #565 on: September 24, 2011, 10:05:11 AM »
TheGlyphstone

I can see your passionate against my views, but your logic is not as objective as you make it out to be.

Offline Star Safyre

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #566 on: September 24, 2011, 10:07:27 AM »


I was kind of disappointed in that I was expecting an updated timeline and my lore princess is apparently in another castle.   :-\

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #567 on: September 24, 2011, 10:29:39 AM »
TheGlyphstone

I can see your passionate against my views, but your logic is not as objective as you make it out to be.

My logic is 'you assume everyone shares your tastes, and your tastes apply to all game systems'. What do you find non-objective about claiming that different games have different audiences and so there is no panacea to all game editions?

Offline Kate

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #568 on: September 24, 2011, 10:32:14 AM »
i never said others should share my tastes, not did i critique others views which i disagreed with

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #569 on: September 24, 2011, 10:36:12 AM »
The point of a discussion thread is discussion, which can include debate and disagreement. It's fine to hold views, but if you don't want other people's opinions on your views, you might not want to post them publicly in a thread such as this.

You posted what you feel would get more people playing a game. I laid out my arguments as to why I disagreed with you (starting with a lack of any identified game system, and moving from there). It'd now be up to you to provide rebuttals to my arguments, if you want to actually discuss the topic. If you don't, we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on from there.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #570 on: September 24, 2011, 10:57:29 AM »
i never said others should share my tastes, not did i critique others views which i disagreed with

Well, you said that "they would get more players/buyers if" ...  that puts a kind of weight to the idea that you think most people agree with you! :p

But you didn't say who 'they' were so nobody knows what game you're talking about :(
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 10:58:54 AM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #571 on: September 24, 2011, 11:45:36 AM »
Also, glad to hear you got a game, what is your roommate running?
The system would ne GURPS. It's gonna be a game set in the 'not so distant future', so TL8 without a set down timeline yet. The game is supposed to focus on a mirror world, sort of like WoD. On one hand you have the world everyone knows about and deals with day to day, but there is this darker more supernatural side that just waits beneath the surface.

I've already been informed that my character may be changed into a low powered super during gameplay, though as to what sort of abilities she'd get; I have no clue yet. Currently the character is a quirky private detective, w hom I still need to finish the character sheet for.

Online Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #572 on: September 24, 2011, 02:19:33 PM »
i never said others should share my tastes, not did i critique others views which i disagreed with
It did sound like you're implying that, though. Of course, I don't think that was your intention, but I can see TheGlyphstone's point ;).

FWIW, pretty much all but one or two of your points would actually push me away from a game, rather than draw me towards it. The points are C and D, and even then I think there is such a thing as a too simple game.

The system would ne GURPS. It's gonna be a game set in the 'not so distant future', so TL8 without a set down timeline yet. The game is supposed to focus on a mirror world, sort of like WoD. On one hand you have the world everyone knows about and deals with day to day, but there is this darker more supernatural side that just waits beneath the surface.

I've already been informed that my character may be changed into a low powered super during gameplay, though as to what sort of abilities she'd get; I have no clue yet. Currently the character is a quirky private detective, w hom I still need to finish the character sheet for.
Sounds like a fun game ;D!
Was your roommate the player in your Witchblade campaign?

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #573 on: September 24, 2011, 02:27:13 PM »
Sounds like a fun game ;D!
Was your roommate the player in your Witchblade campaign?
Yes, that would be the player. We always know the setting fairly well, but the story and plot are often more of a mystery when that one is running. My roommate tends to be my primary player though, as I often prefer to GM games for just one person. You don't have to worry about main character syndrome that way, which my games aren't bad about, but I actually like the stories that come from them. Go figure.

Kinda funny too, my character has an 'uknown hunter' enemy that is 150% of her power. After the basic outline was described, it just seemed fun. I hit the disadvantage cap with this one purely out of thinking they'd be fun to play, I actually wish I could have taken more.

Online Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #574 on: September 24, 2011, 03:53:28 PM »
Yes, that would be the player. We always know the setting fairly well, but the story and plot are often more of a mystery when that one is running. My roommate tends to be my primary player though, as I often prefer to GM games for just one person. You don't have to worry about main character syndrome that way, which my games aren't bad about, but I actually like the stories that come from them. Go figure.

Kinda funny too, my character has an 'uknown hunter' enemy that is 150% of her power. After the basic outline was described, it just seemed fun. I hit the disadvantage cap with this one purely out of thinking they'd be fun to play, I actually wish I could have taken more.
That's not hard to figure out, most movies and books have a single protagonist ;D!