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Author Topic: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games  (Read 42203 times)

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Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #525 on: September 23, 2011, 02:25:02 AM »
Don't worry about it, I think.  It's got to be at least an equal part frustration with it being a school night and my not being able to fall asleep.

And I like arguing about roleplaying games.  They are a hobby of mine (who would have guessed?), so I'm not too sore about it really and neither should you be.

Now I will edit in something on-topic:

Quote
Let's face it when I had my character jump down a flight of stairs and successfully tackled a guard I was hooked.

One of my favorite D&D stories involves using an animated redwood tree to fight a black dragon.  Sometimes awesome stuff just comes together!

I have been tending towards games like Fate and Wushu lately though ... where that kind of awesome stuff seems to result more often in 'awesome!  You land on 'em and knock 'em over!' and less in 'you take 2d6 falling damage and fail your bull rush attempt!' :p
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 02:27:37 AM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #526 on: September 23, 2011, 02:26:17 AM »
Don't worry about it, I think.  It's got to be at least an equal part frustration with it being a school night and my not being able to fall asleep.

And I like arguing about roleplaying games.  They are a hobby of mine (who would have guessed?), so I'm not too sore about it really and neither should you be.
I only get sore about it when I think I upset or frustrated a fellow gamer. Call me sensitive, but pissing off people whom I enjoy talking to kinda makes me feel bad.

OT: my witchblade game crashed today. The witchblade was unlocked, and the template worked up just didn't cut it. Another system is gonna be needed for it...

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #527 on: September 23, 2011, 02:32:07 AM »
Did you mention wanting to try M&M?

I don't know what all the witchblade thing needs to be able to do, but at a reasonable power level, it's easy to have powers that are very widely applicable so long as they don't need to do lots of things at the exact same time.

I'd represent mechanically the increasing ability of the thing as just a standard character progression ... just increase the power point value of the character as the thing becomes more potent.  Add in new Complications as the power starts to make new problems for the character.

If it's something that can be removed by someone else, make it a Device; if it causes problems for the character when she doesn't have the device on hand (beyond just being disadvantaged by not having its powers), add in a new complication: "Losing my gear makes me shrivel up and puke!" or whatever.  I don't know that comic very well, but I have faith in Mutants and Masterminds (2e and 3e, but 3e is shinier.)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 02:39:28 AM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #528 on: September 23, 2011, 02:40:12 AM »
Did you mention wanting to try M&M?

I don't know what all the witchblade thing needs to be able to do, but at a reasonable power level, it's easy to have powers that are very widely applicable so long as they don't need to do lots of things at the exact same time.

I'd represent mechanically the increasing ability of the thing as just a standard character progression ... just increase the power point value of the character as the thing becomes more potent.  Add in new Complications as the power starts to make new problems for the character.
That was the idea, but GURPS makes that difficult. I don't usually do canon stuff, but the witchblade is just so damn cool. At first glance, GURPS should manage it fine; and it probably could, if I was more skilled at GMing it. Though I've only been running the game for a few months now, and my experience in playing the game is limited. As is my experience in playing any games besides Pathfinder, Exalted and NWOD. Most other games I just run...

The basic idea of the witchblade is that it's a half sentient item, a weapon created to be earth's greatest weapon against beings man was not meant to fight. It's male, so it only chooses to assimilate with women; and these women it curses to a life of battle. The issue is that the witchblade gets increasingly stronger as it assimilates, and that means that it increasingly takes more life from the bearer. Terminally ill should handle this, but as the pace increases; I'm not sure how to adjust the illness. It also doesn't start immediately, at first you are just very fatigued after using the blade.

There are other factors like how unless you have reached perfect sync with the blade, you can only transform if there is a powerful opponent around. You also have a bloodlust, increased battle rage, Megalomania and the general want to blow shit up when transformed. I'm hoping M&M or another game might be able to manage a witchblade eventually; but I gotta learn the systems first.

Also, yes I'm dying to try out M&M. I'm probably gonna contact wintercat about his offer for a one on one just to try the system after I have read enough about it.

EDIT: Basic powers of the witchblade are as follows: Sword like blade that extends from the wrist that is able to cut through steel. Increased strength and agility, ability to leap huge distances, body armor that protects the wielder from otherwise killing blows, heightened reaction time, reverse nervous system to where pain is pleasurable, and the ability to bring a blade from any part of your body.

It's gets many more as the player increases, but damn! It's hard to set those down in a way that works out well on GURPS.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 02:45:08 AM by Black Howling »

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #529 on: September 23, 2011, 02:52:20 AM »
I'd handle making the weapon more powerful while also making the wielder weaker (sicklier?) one of two ways: first, I might just increase the power point value of the character, adding in new powers and new complications as the story progresses.  Secondly, I might have the power point total stay the same, but slowly have the character shift points from 'innate' traits (skills, attributes, etc) toward the Device power (to make the weapon itself more powerful.)

The problem I'd foresee is that Mutants and Masterminds usually focuses on a given power level (say, PL 10), and assumes your ability to deal damage and to hit things (and to defend yourself) are all tied to that power level.  You'd have to increase the power level if you wanted to have the power become more damaging/more likely to hit things (without sacrificing one for the other anyway), which generally means advancing the character all around (but doesn't have to!)

If you were playing with only one PC (say, the Witchblade character), I feel like you'd have a lot of leeway to mess around with that without too much trouble.


If you're familiar with any other d20 games, M&M won't be too hard to get used to.  It's still the d20+modifier system, with the biggest differences being point buy character creation and the damage system (no hit points, roll to resist damage).

This would be a more useful post but my M&M books are in another city. :(  Now I will sleep.

Quote
EDIT: Basic powers of the witchblade are as follows: Sword like blade that extends from the wrist that is able to cut through steel. Increased strength and agility, ability to leap huge distances, body armor that protects the wielder from otherwise killing blows, heightened reaction time, reverse nervous system to where pain is pleasurable, and the ability to bring a blade from any part of your body.

this is all representable with M&M.  it sounds like a bunch of powers that are always-on and not mutually exclusive, which is expensive, but there's no reason you can't just set the game's power point totals to whatever it would cost to cover all of those areas.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 02:55:47 AM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #530 on: September 23, 2011, 03:16:15 AM »
I'd handle making the weapon more powerful while also making the wielder weaker (sicklier?) one of two ways: first, I might just increase the power point value of the character, adding in new powers and new complications as the story progresses.  Secondly, I might have the power point total stay the same, but slowly have the character shift points from 'innate' traits (skills, attributes, etc) toward the Device power (to make the weapon itself more powerful.)

The problem I'd foresee is that Mutants and Masterminds usually focuses on a given power level (say, PL 10), and assumes your ability to deal damage and to hit things (and to defend yourself) are all tied to that power level.  You'd have to increase the power level if you wanted to have the power become more damaging/more likely to hit things (without sacrificing one for the other anyway), which generally means advancing the character all around (but doesn't have to!)

If you were playing with only one PC (say, the Witchblade character), I feel like you'd have a lot of leeway to mess around with that without too much trouble.


If you're familiar with any other d20 games, M&M won't be too hard to get used to.  It's still the d20+modifier system, with the biggest differences being point buy character creation and the damage system (no hit points, roll to resist damage).

This would be a more useful post but my M&M books are in another city. :(  Now I will sleep.

this is all representable with M&M.  it sounds like a bunch of powers that are always-on and not mutually exclusive, which is expensive, but there's no reason you can't just set the game's power point totals to whatever it would cost to cover all of those areas.
That's the best and most complete info I've been given so far. On GURPS, it's hard to do because activation is a little tricky on their system for me. I also have trouble with how the witchblade itself can bypass armor while the claws ability is hard pressed to manage it because of how much Striking strength would be needed, and the factt hat the woman's basic punch attacks didn't do that much when transformed. Thanks a lot, now I just have to check out M&M to figure this all out.

Also, I am very familiar with d20. I started out on it, and have a love hate relationship with the system. So it should be fine.

EDIT: For clarifications sake, yes I only had one PC in the game. I particularly enjoy games with just one PC. It allows me to implement main character syndrome.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 03:31:59 AM by Black Howling »

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #531 on: September 23, 2011, 04:32:10 AM »
True, I shouldn't consider the charisma. But I do because of this, and I only know this because I attempted to make the character this way. Let me start.

First I reduced IQ to 8, assuming he would be a little numb skulled. Then I realized that all my most important skills were gonna be based on IQ. So I finagled it, and found the talented advantage and thought it would fix it all. Taking four levels into it, I found it cost me 60 points. I wanted to get to where I had a base of 12 in those skills, then it hit me that I would have payed less even when calculating the 40 points I received for lowering my IQ if I had just raised it by two. 60 points compared to 40, even after the points back I've spent twenty. Then there is still the matter of my will that would need to be raised due to the fact that I don't see my character any more weak willed then normal just because he's not smart, and also my perception because I have decided that just because he's not smart doesn't mean he's not attentive; and the smooth operator doesn't help me with detect lies or body language!

Total it costs me 50 points more then it does the person that just bumped his IQ twice... I'd say that dampers the concept. I would have been happy if we'd have just broke even.

Also, competent and multi talented are two different things. I have never had trouble with and enjoy new world of darkness, so when I hear someone has trouble with the system I offer advice. Apologies if that offends you...

EDIT: I also feel the need to add that I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I had a terrible day at work, the last thing I wish to do is argue. I was only attempting to help a fellow gamer out with their troubles, just as Thurfir tried to do with me and my GURPS troubles. Apparently neither attempt had any success tonight.
FWIW, I am trying to help you solve your problems within GURPS without having to learn a new system. It started as arguing that the disincentive is way less than in most other systems, but it seems the discussion is long past it.

Now, excuse me, I think your calculation is still off.
You have 150 pts, lowering your IQ to 8 gives you 40 points, so you now have 190. Buy that back to a base of 12, and you still have 130. For comparison, the guy who bumped IQ twice would have 110 left at that point. You can buy what, 4 levels of Charisma more and totally outclass him in your speciality? Then you follow the advice from the book and work with the GM to get a variant talent package, say Born Liar, that also covers Body language and Detect Lies. I'm pretty sure they say the packages are an example, not the only ones possible, and you should customize them.
Then you use the 20 points you spent to get your Perception and Will back, and end up with quite less of a difference. Sure, your character is less competent about mental tasks than the guy who is just smarter, but again, that's what lower intelligence is supposed to be. It is going to be more work if you want to compete. Again, I find that normal, and would only take that concept if I wanted to roleplay someone who is disadvantaged in related activities, but still on equal footing when it comes to cheating people.


EDIT: Basic powers of the witchblade are as follows: Sword like blade that extends from the wrist that is able to cut through steel. Increased strength and agility, ability to leap huge distances, body armor that protects the wielder from otherwise killing blows, heightened reaction time, reverse nervous system to where pain is pleasurable, and the ability to bring a blade from any part of your body.

It's gets many more as the player increases, but damn! It's hard to set those down in a way that works out well on GURPS.
Well, I'm without my GURPS books in the foreseeable future. But I remember having made weapons that did feed on the user's vital energy, so there's some way around this. I just can't remember it off the top of my head.
However, I do have one suggestion before you write off GURPS to invest in another system.
Why don't you go to the SJG forums and ask them how to create the Witchblade? If these guys can't help you, nobody can ;D! But since the developers post there, I'd say you stand a pretty good chance!
They also tend to take "GURPS can't model this" as a challenge... >:)
Personally, I've always received pretty good help on such matters. Note, if you don't have GURPS: Supers or GURPS: Martial arts, mention it in the post, as most examples might be from there ;). So, just go there, register and start a thread!

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #532 on: September 23, 2011, 06:23:13 AM »
Mutants and Masterminds has a glaring flaw according to the players and developers on the M&M boards (although ironically no one there seems to see it as a flaw)... all PCs have to have the same basic four stats in order for gameplay to go smoothly.  Attack, Defense, Damage and Toughness.  In a standard game, if PCs create their characters without a 10 in each of these things, the system ends up being clunky.  Why your character has a 10 in each base stat is up to you and what your powers are dictates the flavor and cinematics.  What gets me is that this essentially means that every character is at it's core exactly the same.  Something about that just rubs me the wrong way.  Concept doesn't matter at all, apparently.  The master martial artist with an attack of 10 is just as proficient at hitting things as the brick, and they both do the same amount of damage.  Feats and other things can raise damage and to hits, but not past the game level cap.  Example: you could have Sneak Attack to give you extra damage, but in a standard game it won't raise your damage past 10... so why bother?  I really don't care much for Mutants and Masterminds for these reasons... which is a shame because I bought nearly all the books. 

Maybe 3rd ed will be better.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #533 on: September 23, 2011, 12:23:15 PM »
I don't think I've ever seen anyone but you call that a "glaring flaw".

Your representation isn't accurate, either (you can go above power level caps if you keep another trait below the power level cap, for example).

You'd buy sneak attack because it's cheaper than buying 2 points of Strength or buying ranks of Blast, etc.  Or you'd buy it because it's thematically appropriate to the  character.  Or you'd buy it because it's going to be attached to a power that only has a +5 attack modifier (because you're going to use it against targets that are flat-footed) to deal +15 damage, etc.

Basically, unless your group is all people who just use basic melee attacks with no modifiers (which is something I've never seen ... ), you are not going to run into the situation where everyone is doing the same thing all of the time -- just situations where their chances to succeed (edit: in combat) share the same average (but not always the exact same values -- +10/+10 looks a lot different than +5/+15 in play.)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 01:02:48 PM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #534 on: September 23, 2011, 04:10:24 PM »
FWIW, I am trying to help you solve your problems within GURPS without having to learn a new system. It started as arguing that the disincentive is way less than in most other systems, but it seems the discussion is long past it.

Now, excuse me, I think your calculation is still off.
You have 150 pts, lowering your IQ to 8 gives you 40 points, so you now have 190. Buy that back to a base of 12, and you still have 130. For comparison, the guy who bumped IQ twice would have 110 left at that point. You can buy what, 4 levels of Charisma more and totally outclass him in your speciality? Then you follow the advice from the book and work with the GM to get a variant talent package, say Born Liar, that also covers Body language and Detect Lies. I'm pretty sure they say the packages are an example, not the only ones possible, and you should customize them.
Then you use the 20 points you spent to get your Perception and Will back, and end up with quite less of a difference. Sure, your character is less competent about mental tasks than the guy who is just smarter, but again, that's what lower intelligence is supposed to be. It is going to be more work if you want to compete. Again, I find that normal, and would only take that concept if I wanted to roleplay someone who is disadvantaged in related activities, but still on equal footing when it comes to cheating people.

Well, I'm without my GURPS books in the foreseeable future. But I remember having made weapons that did feed on the user's vital energy, so there's some way around this. I just can't remember it off the top of my head.
However, I do have one suggestion before you write off GURPS to invest in another system.
Why don't you go to the SJG forums and ask them how to create the Witchblade? If these guys can't help you, nobody can ;D! But since the developers post there, I'd say you stand a pretty good chance!
They also tend to take "GURPS can't model this" as a challenge... >:)
Personally, I've always received pretty good help on such matters. Note, if you don't have GURPS: Supers or GURPS: Martial arts, mention it in the post, as most examples might be from there ;). So, just go there, register and start a thread!
My issue here is that customizing the package will still come to the exact same expense, if not high(not sure if it can go higher, but I'd bet it can). This is mainly because IQ based skills are seen as more important by their system, because IQ is a more important attribute. Thus if you circumvent the IQ rating, it gets more expensive. I'll show you my calculations, and we'll see how far off we actually are here. This isn't including a custom package, btw. Looking into it, smooth operator does count in detect lies; but that skill is also IQ based, and not perception like body language is. Talking to the GM, he'd say that he'd let me switch in savior-fare because it makes no sense for my character to be good with high society.

After mathematics are done, I have 190. I spent 60 of it initially, now I'm down to 130. I also need to have an average willpower, so 10 more points are spent. Now I decide I need an above average perception because the guy would have keen senses, even if he's stupid and only average willed. That's another 20 points. I'm now at 100, and outclass the guy in only two skills; intimidation, and body language. So far, it seems alright and bearable; but I'm 40 points into the 75 point disadvantage cap, and he hasn't taken any yet. At-least, I believe attributes are counted toward the cap.

I'd have to lay down charisma to get better, and since the other person was a corporate business man that also had that capability, He came out as good at me in everything I specialized in, and better then me in other areas. Quite simply, his build was better because his required a good IQ. I could just take your advice and punch in charisma, but it leaves him with poor vision and weaker will. My concept isn't completed, it's still discouraged as I only have him being stupid; but inattentive or weak willed.

Again, I really wish you could help with this. Cause I've been pulling my hair out over it since I tried to build the character. I still love GURPS for all it lets me do, but their favoritism on IQ makes that character, which I like playing, hard to deal with.

EDIT: I might also look into registering on the SJforums, but if t's anything like I have heard, to complete the witchblade I'll need to throw down cash for another supplement. That's money I don't have yet, and I'd hate to buy a new supplement for just one game.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 04:13:59 PM by Black Howling »

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #535 on: September 23, 2011, 04:57:20 PM »
I don't think I've ever seen anyone but you call that a "glaring flaw".

Your representation isn't accurate, either (you can go above power level caps if you keep another trait below the power level cap, for example).

You'd buy sneak attack because it's cheaper than buying 2 points of Strength or buying ranks of Blast, etc.  Or you'd buy it because it's thematically appropriate to the  character.  Or you'd buy it because it's going to be attached to a power that only has a +5 attack modifier (because you're going to use it against targets that are flat-footed) to deal +15 damage, etc.

I'm just saying what the developers and longstanding forum members of that site said over and over... if you don't have all four stats maxed (whether or not the +5/-5 option is used, though that option is frowned upon on that site), the character isn't viable for gameplay against the NPCs created by the developers. 

Quote
Basically, unless your group is all people who just use basic melee attacks with no modifiers (which is something I've never seen ... ), you are not going to run into the situation where everyone is doing the same thing all of the time -- just situations where their chances to succeed (edit: in combat) share the same average (but not always the exact same values -- +10/+10 looks a lot different than +5/+15 in play.)

See I don't like that, which is my point.  I liked being able to take feats and abilities in 3.5 D&D that could take me to ultra focused heights of bonus with no limit if I so chose.  M&M makes me feel constricted and smothered by the level caps.

Also, no modifiers are going to take you over the game's limits (+10 for an average starting game).  Not sure if you were implying that they could go over or not... but I wanted to point that out in case you were.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #536 on: September 23, 2011, 05:02:50 PM »
They will certainly take you over the limit if you use trade-offs.  The limit is not PL, it's (X+Y)=(PL*2), where X and Y are Attack and Damage, or Defense and Toughness, etc.  They're different in 3e.

Whether or not the people on some other forum like it, trade-offs are part of the game.  /shrug

'I can't break the system!' is not a complaint that is very moving for me, all told.  'It's not the same as a different game!' gets a similar response ... if you want your game to be dnd 3.5, then no, M&M isn't going to do what you want it to do.  It's not dnd 3.5.  That it is not the same as a different game is not a "glaring flaw".
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 05:20:21 PM by meikle »

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #537 on: September 23, 2011, 05:23:24 PM »
Your opinion is noted.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #538 on: September 23, 2011, 06:07:13 PM »
They will certainly take you over the limit if you use trade-offs.  The limit is not PL, it's (X+Y)=(PL*2), where X and Y are Attack and Damage, or Defense and Toughness, etc.  They're different in 3e.

Whether or not the people on some other forum like it, trade-offs are part of the game.  /shrug

'I can't break the system!' is not a complaint that is very moving for me, all told.  'It's not the same as a different game!' gets a similar response ... if you want your game to be dnd 3.5, then no, M&M isn't going to do what you want it to do.  It's not dnd 3.5.  That it is not the same as a different game is not a "glaring flaw".
While I'm sure Lunar wasn't even implying the first sentence I quoted in bold, I have to say that I agree with the words here. I get tired of hearing people complain because the system isn't getting broken, or that it's different then another game that is similar. Just like the ever popular 'My last GM had no issues with this' complaint.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #539 on: September 23, 2011, 06:13:23 PM »
I might also look into registering on the SJforums, but if t's anything like I have heard, to complete the witchblade I'll need to throw down cash for another supplement. That's money I don't have yet, and I'd hate to buy a new supplement for just one game.
That's why you mention in the OP that you'd like to get solutions as per the Basic set, and since you're considering whether to drop the game if it doesn't suit you, you're not going to buy another supplement before you see it working. And that means working with the Basic set, but you might consider buying more if it works ;).
See, it's not a matter of the guys there wanting you to buy supplements. However, since most of them are fans and many have something like 90% of the supplements, they would assume you have several supplements too. They can also adapt to your your needs and abilities when you state them explicitly, but you need to do that 8-).
IMO, you lose nothing for starting a thread, and you could save yourself buying another system, so I'd do that if I was you.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #540 on: September 23, 2011, 06:16:14 PM »
Mutants and Masterminds has a glaring flaw according to the players and developers on the M&M boards...

I am one of those that sees it as a feature.  Allowing one character to monopolize the spotlight 50% of the time (the combat twink and 50% is an overgenerous assessment in my opinion) is not fun for the other players.  I want all the characters to contribute equally in combat regardless of their other capabilities.

See I don't like that, which is my point.  I liked being able to take feats and abilities in 3.5 D&D that could take me to ultra focused heights of bonus with no limit if I so chose.

In my experience, this always leads to making everyone else your sidekick...or they have to abandon their own concepts just to keep up with your optimization. 

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #541 on: September 23, 2011, 07:39:04 PM »
I am one of those that sees it as a feature.  Allowing one character to monopolize the spotlight 50% of the time (the combat twink and 50% is an overgenerous assessment in my opinion) is not fun for the other players.  I want all the characters to contribute equally in combat regardless of their other capabilities.

In my experience, this always leads to making everyone else your sidekick...or they have to abandon their own concepts just to keep up with your optimization.

If you're optimizing for everything, maybe. The undetectable mega-stealth monkey isn't overshadowed by the guy who does a thousand damage on a charging full attack - if everyone gets to monopolize their own spotlight, it works fine. The opportunities to do that were just few and far between.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #542 on: September 23, 2011, 07:41:36 PM »
If you're optimizing for everything, maybe. The undetectable mega-stealth monkey isn't overshadowed by the guy who does a thousand damage on a charging full attack - if everyone gets to monopolize their own spotlight, it works fine. The opportunities to do that were just few and far between.

+1

Offline MasterMischief

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #543 on: September 23, 2011, 07:45:32 PM »
I keep hearing about these builds.   ;D

Why do I get all the freakin' combat monkeys?

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #544 on: September 23, 2011, 08:05:42 PM »
If you're optimizing for everything, maybe. The undetectable mega-stealth monkey isn't overshadowed by the guy who does a thousand damage on a charging full attack - if everyone gets to monopolize their own spotlight, it works fine. The opportunities to do that were just few and far between.

Not a very legitimate complaint against M&M though, because nothing stops you from having a huge stealth bonus (yes, there is an upper limit, I think +20 PL 10) on top of being totally invisible to all of the senses while interacting with the world from another dimension entirely.

So in that case, the complaint against not being able to hyper-focus only applies to combat.  Everyone gets to average out the same in that realm.

I'm incredibly grateful for a point buy game that doesn't make itself all about who buys the highest to-hit modifier, though.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 08:09:08 PM by meikle »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #545 on: September 23, 2011, 08:08:22 PM »
Not a very legitimate complaint against M&M though, because nothing stops you from having a huge stealth bonus on top of being totally invisible to all of the senses while interacting with the world from another dimension entirely.

So in that case, the complaint against not being able to hyper-focus only applies to combat.  Everyone gets to average out the same in that realm.

I've never played M&M, so I couldn't say, but that sounds about right. It's really a game that doesn't even pay lip service to balance and is completely honest about it, upfront saying 'this game will shatter into a bazillion pieces if you try, so play nice'.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #546 on: September 23, 2011, 08:09:48 PM »
I thought Lunar's complaint was that it was 'too' balanced.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #547 on: September 23, 2011, 08:11:52 PM »
I thought Lunar's complaint was that it was 'too' balanced.

Well, I took Lunar's complaint to be that he couldn't hyperspecialize.  He can, though, he just can't be more specialized at beating people up than anyone else.  That would turn the game into an arms race and it would be dumb.

Edit: Actually, he can specialize in beating people up.  He can't specialize in having bigger combat numbers.  He can have more options, more methods, and more tools, he just can't have both a bigger to-hit and damage bonus than equal-level characters at the same time.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 08:12:57 PM by meikle »

Offline MasterMischief

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #548 on: September 23, 2011, 08:15:31 PM »
Agreed.  And I still say that is a feature.  Most campaigns are weighted to combat.  It should not be the solve purview of a single player.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #549 on: September 23, 2011, 08:17:48 PM »
I certainly agree!  And while there are a few places where M&M really falls apart (and those parts are often marked, "Look, this makes the game fall apart so don't be dumb about it", like with the multiple-bodies power in 2e), the combat design is definitely one of the places where it shines.