You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 08, 2016, 08:32:52 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games  (Read 42273 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #500 on: September 22, 2011, 12:55:55 PM »
Honestly, I don't know enough about the witchblade series to understand where the problem is. I guess you should look into the cinematic rules options and suggestions how to make the game less gritty, but that's all.
I already use as many of the cinematic rules as I'm comfortable with. There's only so many of them I can stand, after all bullet proof nudity turns from cinematic to comical. That's not really where the issue is at, it more stems from the fact that the system isn't really designed to handle characters like this. It's a hard fit to find advantages that describe the witchblade's power adequately. With a lot of forethought, I managed the first stage of the witchblade fairly well.

My main concern is when the witchblade starts to evolve. It's power increases gradually as the bearer assimilates with it. The higher the assimilation, the higher the power; but also the more the user's body starts to wear down. It's also hard to find appropriate disadvantages that state for how the player is dying but still able to function fine because of the witchblade.

I understand you don't know enough about the series for proper commenting, but it's still an example. Another more easy to understand example would be a rather stupid, but very charismatic con artist. It's hard to put one together in GURPS because you spend more on skills and advantages then you would just iIQ and skill. I mean, it's possible; but the system still discourages it because that route actually costs more in the long run and isn't as effective all around.

That was sort of the gripe llama and I had. The build is possible, but the system discourages do to how it's constructed. That's just a hole in any system though, it can't be perfect.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #501 on: September 22, 2011, 01:12:12 PM »
I already use as many of the cinematic rules as I'm comfortable with. There's only so many of them I can stand, after all bullet proof nudity turns from cinematic to comical. That's not really where the issue is at, it more stems from the fact that the system isn't really designed to handle characters like this. It's a hard fit to find advantages that describe the witchblade's power adequately. With a lot of forethought, I managed the first stage of the witchblade fairly well.

My main concern is when the witchblade starts to evolve. It's power increases gradually as the bearer assimilates with it. The higher the assimilation, the higher the power; but also the more the user's body starts to wear down. It's also hard to find appropriate disadvantages that state for how the player is dying but still able to function fine because of the witchblade.
True, if I ever watch it, I'll come back to you. Don't hold your breath, though ;D!

Quote
I understand you don't know enough about the series for proper commenting, but it's still an example.
True, but an example I can understand would be more useful ;).

Quote
Another more easy to understand example would be a rather stupid, but very charismatic con artist. It's hard to put one together in GURPS because you spend more on skills and advantages then you would just iIQ and skill. I mean, it's possible; but the system still discourages it because that route actually costs more in the long run and isn't as effective all around.
Actually, it's cheaper ;). Come up with the points for the high-IQ con artist and note down points in his skills, and how much levels of IQ you bought.
Now, get your IQ back to 10 or even less. For every level, buy a +1 level in Talent: Con Artist, which adds to your rolls in the skills that benefit a con artist.
Seeing as IQ is rated at 20 pts/level, and Talented comes at 10 or maybe 15 pts/level, you just saved 5 to 10 points per level of IQ you didn't buy >:). Buy something else with them, like Charisma, Innocuous looks, or whatever suits the concept ;D!
Hope that helps.

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #502 on: September 22, 2011, 01:15:32 PM »
True, if I ever watch it, I'll come back to you. Don't hold your breath, though ;D!
True, but an example I can understand would be more useful ;).
Actually, it's cheaper ;). Come up with the points for the high-IQ con artist and note down points in his skills, and how much levels of IQ you bought.
Now, get your IQ back to 10 or even less. For every level, buy a +1 level in Talent: Con Artist, which adds to your rolls in the skills that benefit a con artist.
Seeing as IQ is rated at 20 pts/level, and Talented comes at 10 or maybe 15 pts/level, you just saved 5 to 10 points per level of IQ you didn't buy >:). Buy something else with them, like Charisma, Innocuous looks, or whatever suits the concept ;D!
Hope that helps.
It's comes out slightly cheaper at first glance, but when you consider the use of talented for it would about 15 points per level and then donning charisma would add another five points, you all of a sudden come out to twenty points per tick. This seems to be higher, and it is a little; but their highly focused, and the person who added those same points in IQ is just as good as them and has other areas of expertise as well.

Like I said, it very possible' but the system does discourage it. To me, because so much is put on IQ, using advantages to circumvent is just less cost effective.

EDIT: Also, smooth operator is the fit for it naturally. So, it is 15 points per level. :P
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 01:16:56 PM by Black Howling »

Offline MasterMischief

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #503 on: September 22, 2011, 01:30:31 PM »
Hero is more flexible than GURPS, but has a pretty high learning curve. Mutants & Masterminds might work for your Witchblade campaign if you do not mind sacrificing granularity and the ever popular banner of 'realism'.

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #504 on: September 22, 2011, 01:43:56 PM »
Hero is more flexible than GURPS, but has a pretty high learning curve. Mutants & Masterminds might work for your Witchblade campaign if you do not mind sacrificing granularity and the ever popular banner of 'realism'.
I've heard that about the hero system, and have been increasingly more interested in trying it. The 'learning curve' that keeps being mentioned is what is driving me from it. After all, if it's as hard to learn as D&D 3rd or Exalted then I'd really prefer not to figure it out on my own. Mix that with not knowing anyone who plays the game, and the system isn't seeming like such a good idea. Maybe you could explain that learning curve a tad better for me?

Also, I've wanted to try mutants and masterminds for a while now. I actually dislike fully 'realistic' games, mainly because bias always keeps them from being actually realistic. Like GURPS love of IQ, and their hate of strength. I balk when the 'heavy lifting' skill is based on HT and seems to ignore your load rules. So as long as it doesn't just cast realism to the side to where it's impossible to actually relate well with the game, I think it'll be fine.

Thanks.

Offline Genbu83

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #505 on: September 22, 2011, 02:33:15 PM »
I've heard that about the hero system, and have been increasingly more interested in trying it. The 'learning curve' that keeps being mentioned is what is driving me from it. After all, if it's as hard to learn as D&D 3rd or Exalted then I'd really prefer not to figure it out on my own. Mix that with not knowing anyone who plays the game, and the system isn't seeming like such a good idea. Maybe you could explain that learning curve a tad better for me?

Also, I've wanted to try mutants and masterminds for a while now. I actually dislike fully 'realistic' games, mainly because bias always keeps them from being actually realistic. Like GURPS love of IQ, and their hate of strength. I balk when the 'heavy lifting' skill is based on HT and seems to ignore your load rules. So as long as it doesn't just cast realism to the side to where it's impossible to actually relate well with the game, I think it'll be fine.

Thanks.

Tri stat is also fairly flexible. Silver Age Sentinels and BESM are their main products...might be published by Whitewolf now.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #506 on: September 22, 2011, 02:41:47 PM »
Now I'm curious, what concepts would be discouraged by a point-buy game ;D?

Exalted discourages PCs from being Thaumaturges by making thaumaturgy far more expensive than the benefit it provides is actually worth, for example.

Quote
I'll remember that in the future, but care to enlighten me about the difference :P?

I guess they're pretty similar!  But like I said, since Apocalypse World has a different kind of paradigm than most class-based games, you might discover that their function is not quite so distasteful in this case.

Quote
I'd disagree here, but depending on the ST you may be right. Also, depending modifiers you may be correct. A game has never turned out that way for me, as 3 dots are all you really need in a skill to be effective at the beginning. At-least in my experience.

But you stop at 3 dots, because going from 3 dots to 5 dots means spending 6! sessions worth of XP on gaining 2 dice to a specific sort of roll (it's about that much in Exalted, at least, I don't recall NWoD XP charts off the top of my head).  Which is a pretty good way to discourage people from doing that, by making more interesting/superior options less expensive.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 03:09:40 PM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #507 on: September 22, 2011, 03:24:07 PM »
Tri stat is also fairly flexible. Silver Age Sentinels and BESM are their main products...might be published by Whitewolf now.
I've been looking into besm already. I think it'll simply fit some of my games better.
But you stop at 3 dots, because going from 3 dots to 5 dots means spending 6! sessions worth of XP on gaining 2 dice to a specific sort of roll (it's about that much in Exalted, at least, I don't recall NWoD XP charts off the top of my head).  Which is a pretty good way to discourage people from doing that, by making more interesting/superior options less expensive.
... No, I stop at 3 dots when making a beginning level character because 3 dots marks you as a professional in that area. It's not a mechanical thing, it's because I don't see my starting level character as being an expert or master in anything. Which is what 4+ dots on NWOD represents. Now if I had 35 to 75 experience to toss around, then one or two things would definitely be at a 4 or five. That's a seasoned or veteran character though, so it's expected at that point.

Also, it's more expensive on NWOD to riase skills then abilities are on exalted. You also get less experience on NWOD as compared to exalted, but I'm also not one to worry about mastering a skill taking a long time. It does...

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #508 on: September 22, 2011, 04:25:31 PM »
But, because of the way experience works in Storyteller games, it also means that not only does mastering a skill take a long time, you can't become better at anything else without delaying that ability increase.  Essentially, if you want your character to progress, becoming increasingly competent at their area of expertise is the least effective and slowest way to do it, ability-wise.

For example: my character is a sneaky sneak, with 3 dots in Stealth.  I have 30 xp.  I can raise my Stealth to 5 and get a Stealth specialty, and be really exceptionally sneaky!

Or I could become an equally skilled hacker (3 dots of Computers, from 0) for 18 xp, and then also become pretty competent at investigation (2 dots of Investigation, up from 0) and start dabbling in Athletics so that I can get out of sticky situations that the former skills get me into.

I don't see how you can look at this (+2 dice and a bonus to a specific circumstance vs +6 dice that are more generally useful) and say that the game doesn't discourage you from specializing in favor of generalizing.

It's even more obvious, I think, when you consider that the price to raise these traits at chargen is drastically reduced (ie, 4 dots in an ability is valued the same as 1 dot in 4 abilities at with your initial 11/7/4 spread, but after character generation, the cost of 4 dots in an ability from 0 is equal to the cost of 1 dot in nine abilities.)

It doesn't help that, for me, spending two months playing a game to have my character's only meaningful advancement be 'you get to roll 1 more die 3% of the time!' would just bore me to tears. :p
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 04:26:45 PM by meikle »

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #509 on: September 22, 2011, 04:35:08 PM »
Two extra dice isn't what I would realistically call the difference between professional and master, either.  We tried having Ability dice be auto successes.  How often is someone who has mastered a skill going to fail when applying that skill?  Did you ever see Legolas miss with an arrow?  How often does Bobby Flay make a lousy meal?  Once past a certain level of proficiency in real life, failure is very rare... yet even the most proficient masters in RPGs seem to have a pretty good chance of doing just that.  I'd love to see a game where this is addressed.

Offline Inkidu

  • E's Resident Girlomancer, Dedicated Philogynist, The Compartive of a Superlative, SLG's Sammich Life-Giver
  • Lord
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Location: In a staring contest with the Void.
  • Gender: Male
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #510 on: September 22, 2011, 05:41:26 PM »
I just started playing DnD (3.5) and I love it. I've got the core game books on my ipod and computer and am busy reading them cover to cover.

Let's face it when I had my character jump down a flight of stairs and successfully tackled a guard I was hooked. :D

Offline MasterMischief

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #511 on: September 22, 2011, 06:06:18 PM »
I have also been frustrated by so-called mastery level failures.

D&D introduced Taking 10 which I think was a good idea. M&M carried this foward and added some Feats to allieviate single bad rolls.

Second Chance allows you another roll if you blow your first.

Ultimate Effort allows you to get a 20 when you really need it.

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #512 on: September 22, 2011, 10:49:52 PM »
But, because of the way experience works in Storyteller games, it also means that not only does mastering a skill take a long time, you can't become better at anything else without delaying that ability increase.  Essentially, if you want your character to progress, becoming increasingly competent at their area of expertise is the least effective and slowest way to do it, ability-wise.

For example: my character is a sneaky sneak, with 3 dots in Stealth.  I have 30 xp.  I can raise my Stealth to 5 and get a Stealth specialty, and be really exceptionally sneaky!

Or I could become an equally skilled hacker (3 dots of Computers, from 0) for 18 xp, and then also become pretty competent at investigation (2 dots of Investigation, up from 0) and start dabbling in Athletics so that I can get out of sticky situations that the former skills get me into.

I don't see how you can look at this (+2 dice and a bonus to a specific circumstance vs +6 dice that are more generally useful) and say that the game doesn't discourage you from specializing in favor of generalizing.

It's even more obvious, I think, when you consider that the price to raise these traits at chargen is drastically reduced (ie, 4 dots in an ability is valued the same as 1 dot in 4 abilities at with your initial 11/7/4 spread, but after character generation, the cost of 4 dots in an ability from 0 is equal to the cost of 1 dot in nine abilities.)

It doesn't help that, for me, spending two months playing a game to have my character's only meaningful advancement be 'you get to roll 1 more die 3% of the time!' would just bore me to tears. :p
Depends on if you need to actually start making the stealth checks more often. After all, you only max out at around an 11 dice pool averagely. And the entire basis of the storyteller system is that it places more focus on the story and less on becoming better with your sword or more awesome at sneaking. If you are wanting to powergame, you're playing with the wrong system. Plain and simple. :P

I believe my thoughts are also based on the fact that it's rules light, thus has plenty of holes, and 2 dice equal about one more success for me. This is speaking generally of course. 2 dice isn't the difference between professional and master, but if the ST is restricting checks as he is supposed to, 2 dots IS the difference between being able to attempt a task and simply failing out right. I believe that's how they categorize mastery, judging by how they explain it in the book of course.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 11:02:18 PM by Black Howling »

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #513 on: September 22, 2011, 11:39:27 PM »
... Can you cite that rule?  Because I have a feeling that it doesn't exist.  The game does have rules for attempting things with a dice pool of 0, however (and that rule is 'you still get a 10% chance to succeed.')

I can't really engage the first paragraph.  As I'm sure you know, 'you're doing it wrong' is kind of a ridiculous stance as far as playing make believe goes (and does nothing to refute the numbers cited.)  "You're doing it wrong!" is a pretty good way to shut down any criticism of any game at all, though.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 11:42:07 PM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #514 on: September 23, 2011, 12:17:24 AM »
... Can you cite that rule?  Because I have a feeling that it doesn't exist.  The game does have rules for attempting things with a dice pool of 0, however (and that rule is 'you still get a 10% chance to succeed.')

I can't really engage the first paragraph.  As I'm sure you know, 'you're doing it wrong' is kind of a ridiculous stance as far as playing make believe goes (and does nothing to refute the numbers cited.)  "You're doing it wrong!" is a pretty good way to shut down any criticism of any game at all, though.
I'll try to look it up for you before I head to bed since you seem to be in such doubt. Though I'd like to outline that most rules in WoD aren't actually described like them. The little things like that are storyteller calls, and easy to overlook. Also, I didn't say you were doing it wrong. I said that if you were looking to powergame, you were playing the wrong game. This is stated by White Wolf, and they list it clearly when they talk about the storyteller system. In their exact words, it focuses more on story and less on the system. The game is less focused on how much better you get at things so you can focus on how they evolve. In other words, if you just want to get bigger numbers; there are a lot better systems for it out there.

EDIT: I also didn't say it would take a certain dice pool was needed to make the check. I said a certain number of dots could be needed. I'll look up the page later, but they explain it like this from my memory:

 Anyone with basic knowledge of cars could change brake fluid, and tighten bolts. Rebuilding a transmission might take a lot more knowledge however, and the ST should take note of this. After all, if the player doesn't have three or more dots and lacks a specializations in automobiles, then he very well may not know how to even begin the task.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 12:22:26 AM by Black Howling »

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #515 on: September 23, 2011, 12:28:09 AM »
There's a mention about not letting someone try to lift something heavy if they have a poor strength rating.  There's a difference between not being able to attempt something because it's totally impossible (like trying to life a boulder if you're a normal human, or trying to fly if you've got no magic) and just not being allowed to attempt something.  I imagine that's why there are rules for penalties relating to not having a given ability (ie, you can always fall back on innate talent, or at least try to.)

The example that I found, though, doesn't discuss a rolled action (either you're strong enough to lift something or you're not).  So that's where I'd leave that.

Quote
In other words, if you just want to get bigger numbers; there are a lot better systems for it out there.

Well, it might not be what you mean, but my whole point was indeed that the nWoD system makes it a lot more desirable and also easier to get lots of small numbers than to get a few big numbers. :p

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #516 on: September 23, 2011, 12:42:38 AM »
There's a mention about not letting someone try to lift something heavy if they have a poor strength rating.  There's a difference between not being able to attempt something because it's totally impossible (like trying to life a boulder if you're a normal human, or trying to fly if you've got no magic) and just not being allowed to attempt something.  I imagine that's why there are rules for penalties relating to not having a given ability (ie, you can always fall back on innate talent, or at least try to.)

The example that I found, though, doesn't discuss a rolled action (either you're strong enough to lift something or you're not).  So that's where I'd leave that.

Well, it might not be what you mean, but my whole point was indeed that the nWoD system makes it a lot more desirable and also easier to get lots of small numbers than to get a few big numbers. :p
I'm not attacking your points, I'm simply listing what I've read in the past. I've read the whole book several times, and out of the pages it's impossible for me to give you the number immediately. For that I apologize, my brain isn't a computer. :P I'd also like to mention that I said certain tasks would be impossible without a given amount of knowledge in the field. After all, a rookie programmer rarely knows how to rewrite the information data base, now does he? That's basically how they describe it, I'll quote it when I have the time. Also, they say the storyteller may let you attempt it with innate talent alone. That's not a guarantee, and I had to tell a player that once when they wanted to put new brakes into their car with no craft dots and no book to let them know how.

And it may be more appealing, but it's still power gaming. Also, I doubt it makes much sense to raise all those skills at once. My point being, if you want to power game there are much better systems. The answer is to know what you want to do.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 12:45:07 AM by Black Howling »

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #517 on: September 23, 2011, 12:48:53 AM »
If I don't want to powergame, I'll play a game that doesn't give me an incentive for doing so.  If White Wolf wants to focus on the story above the mechanics, they shouldn't include a weighty system of Cost vs Return in character design. :p

World of Darkness games are excellent for powergaming because they aren't balanced at all.  The more balanced a given game is, the less benefit there is for power gaming, after all.  You'd be hard pressed to powergame with an Apocalypse World character.

edit: and, seeing that I just turned 'me an' into 'man', I'm going to conclude that I'm too tired to write anymore posts tonight.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 12:51:23 AM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #518 on: September 23, 2011, 01:09:25 AM »
If I don't want to powergame, I'll play a game that doesn't give me an incentive for doing so.  If White Wolf wants to focus on the story above the mechanics, they shouldn't include a weighty system of Cost vs Return in character design. :p

World of Darkness games are excellent for powergaming because they aren't balanced at all.  The more balanced a given game is, the less benefit there is for power gaming, after all.  You'd be hard pressed to powergame with an Apocalypse World character.

edit: and, seeing that I just turned 'me an' into 'man', I'm going to conclude that I'm too tired to write anymore posts tonight.
The game is rules light, therefore easy to abuse. Abuse is the flaw of a player not a system. If it's bashing and arguments you want, talk to someone else. I was just attempting to help.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #519 on: September 23, 2011, 01:29:19 AM »
Guys, I think you got carried away and missed the most important post >:)! It happens.
So, let me answer you, and I'll try to rectify that.

It's comes out slightly cheaper at first glance, but when you consider the use of talented for it would about 15 points per level and then donning charisma would add another five points, you all of a sudden come out to twenty points per tick. This seems to be higher, and it is a little; but their highly focused, and the person who added those same points in IQ is just as good as them and has other areas of expertise as well.

Like I said, it very possible' but the system does discourage it. To me, because so much is put on IQ, using advantages to circumvent is just less cost effective.

EDIT: Also, smooth operator is the fit for it naturally. So, it is 15 points per level. :P
Come on, you don't include Charisma in it, since your IQ-based con man would have the exactly same level, since it really, really helps smooth operators, no matter their IQ. So it's still cheaper by 5 pts per level :P.
And yeah, you don't learn other skills as fast, but it's only natural a more intelligent character would grasp new intellect-based skills faster. I thought you were looking to play a less than brilliant con man that still succeeds? If that's your character concept, that's like complaining that the martial artist learns dexterity-based skills faster than you. Sure he does, being highly coordinated was part of his character concept!
Also, you still have those 5 points per level. Put them in some skills you want to be higher.

Also, I didn't say you were doing it wrong. I said that if you were looking to powergame, you were playing the wrong game. This is stated by White Wolf, and they list it clearly when they talk about the storyteller system. In their exact words, it focuses more on story and less on the system. The game is less focused on how much better you get at things so you can focus on how they evolve. In other words, if you just want to get bigger numbers; there are a lot better systems for it out there.
Haven't you noticed? What White Wolf say about their systems is often orthogonal to the systems really look like in play ;)!
In that case, they tell you not to focus on the numbers, but I don't need to focus to see how their systems work. And when the system actually makes me more competent in the long-term if I powergame at the start, that's hardly a way to dissuade powergaming ;D.

Exalted discourages PCs from being Thaumaturges by making thaumaturgy far more expensive than the benefit it provides is actually worth, for example.
I've got to give that to White Wolf, that's probably a feature, not a bug. This works exactly the way it's supposed to be in the setting ;).


And now, the most important post for the last couple of pages. That includes my posts!

I just started playing DnD (3.5) and I love it. I've got the core game books on my ipod and computer and am busy reading them cover to cover.

Let's face it when I had my character jump down a flight of stairs and successfully tackled a guard I was hooked. :D
Allow me to be the first to welcome to the club, Inkidu 8-)! The feeling when the PCs do such things is nice, isn't it?

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #520 on: September 23, 2011, 01:37:53 AM »
Guys, I think you got carried away and missed the most important post >:)! It happens.
So, let me answer you, and I'll try to rectify that.
Come on, you don't include Charisma in it, since your IQ-based con man would have the exactly same level, since it really, really helps smooth operators, no matter their IQ. So it's still cheaper by 5 pts per level :P.
And yeah, you don't learn other skills as fast, but it's only natural a more intelligent character would grasp new intellect-based skills faster. I thought you were looking to play a less than brilliant con man that still succeeds? If that's your character concept, that's like complaining that the martial artist learns dexterity-based skills faster than you. Sure he does, being highly coordinated was part of his character concept!
Also, you still have those 5 points per level. Put them in some skills you want to be higher.
Haven't you noticed? What White Wolf say about their systems is often orthogonal to the systems really look like in play ;)!
In that case, they tell you not to focus on the numbers, but I don't need to focus to see how their systems work. And when the system actually makes me more competent in the long-term if I powergame at the start, that's hardly a way to dissuade powergaming ;D.
True, I shouldn't consider the charisma. But I do because of this, and I only know this because I attempted to make the character this way. Let me start.

First I reduced IQ to 8, assuming he would be a little numb skulled. Then I realized that all my most important skills were gonna be based on IQ. So I finagled it, and found the talented advantage and thought it would fix it all. Taking four levels into it, I found it cost me 60 points. I wanted to get to where I had a base of 12 in those skills, then it hit me that I would have payed less even when calculating the 40 points I received for lowering my IQ if I had just raised it by two. 60 points compared to 40, even after the points back I've spent twenty. Then there is still the matter of my will that would need to be raised due to the fact that I don't see my character any more weak willed then normal just because he's not smart, and also my perception because I have decided that just because he's not smart doesn't mean he's not attentive; and the smooth operator doesn't help me with detect lies or body language!

Total it costs me 50 points more then it does the person that just bumped his IQ twice... I'd say that dampers the concept. I would have been happy if we'd have just broke even.

Also, competent and multi talented are two different things. I have never had trouble with and enjoy new world of darkness, so when I hear someone has trouble with the system I offer advice. Apologies if that offends you...

EDIT: I also feel the need to add that I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I had a terrible day at work, the last thing I wish to do is argue. I was only attempting to help a fellow gamer out with their troubles, just as Thurfir tried to do with me and my GURPS troubles. Apparently neither attempt had any success tonight.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 01:49:43 AM by Black Howling »

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #521 on: September 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM »
Oh, new posts were added between when I opened the window and when I hit 'reply'.

Quote
Also, competent and multi talented are two different things. I have never had trouble with and enjoy new world of darkness, so when I hear someone has trouble with the system I offer advice. Apologies if that offends you...

I think it should be highlighted that just because someone sees as a problem something that you don't doesn't mean that they are "[having] trouble with the system".  It just means that their interests focus somewhere else.  I don't struggle with World of Darkness; I just don't think that character optimization is a problem but an enjoyable part of the system (except I think the way abilities work in particular is annoying, so I just use flat XP costs with Storyteller games for most things, like attributes and abilities.)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 02:15:17 AM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #522 on: September 23, 2011, 02:15:10 AM »
I have absolutely no idea how (or what) you meant to 'help', but it certainly comes across as a sort of condescending thing to say, doesn't it?

Oh, new posts were added between when I opened the window and when I hit 'reply'.

I think it should be highlighted that just because someone sees as a problem that you don't doesn't mean that they are "[having] trouble with the system".  It just means that their interests focus somewhere else. 

It is a little bit offensive when you assume that people who don't see things your way are dealing with some sort of mistake that needs to be rectified, yes.  Using loaded language (like 'power gaming', like 'abuse', or like 'flaw of a player') only amplifies that.
Quote
Also, competent and multi talented are two different things. I have never had trouble with and enjoy new world of darkness, so when I hear someone has trouble with the system I offer advice. Apologies if that offends you...
The place you quoted, and thus the one I highlighted above, was pointed toward Thurfir's mention of powergaming; not yours. Also, the you was meant generally not pointed, reflecting my day and how things have gone so far. I apologize if I came off offensive. That wasn't the intent at all, I simply tried to offer an explanation I was hoping would help the situation. Just as thurfir tried for me, or I think that is what he was doing; perhaps I'm looking for the best and not the worst in people. If I had known you were getting offended, and thus upset, I would have clarified and shut up sooner. Next time, inform me so I can stop being the apparent asshole I was...

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #523 on: September 23, 2011, 02:16:28 AM »
I edited my post to be a little calmer, but a little bit too late it looks like!  Sorry about that.  I did see things calming down, but it's late and I should be asleep, and I didn't cut out the still-frustrated parts with as much alacrity as I would have liked.

Quote
I've got to give that to White Wolf, that's probably a feature, not a bug. This works exactly the way it's supposed to be in the setting ;).
Oh, absolutely.  It's supposed to be worthwhile for mortal characters, and inefficient for everyone who can learn Sorcery.  It is a neat thing.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 02:19:32 AM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

  • Lady Luna's Werewolf, Blitzy's Otis, Lizzy's Alpha Comfort, Sephy's Cloak, Vampy's Other man, Always Big and Bad
  • Knight
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Location: Roaming through Gnothi's Closet....
  • Gender: Male
  • Even Bad Wolves can be good
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #524 on: September 23, 2011, 02:18:25 AM »
I edited my post to be a little calmer, but a little bit too late it looks like!  Sorry about that.
Feeling like a complete ass is just going along with the rest of my day, so no worries. I just happen to like you, and was hoping to not royally piss you off and be oblivious to it...