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Author Topic: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games  (Read 42237 times)

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Offline Genbu83

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #475 on: September 18, 2011, 02:05:18 AM »
My thoughts, and when multiple gamers come together; it becomes harder to find house rules that fit the needs of everyone present. If the players are enjoying themselves, and everyone feels things are fair; then all is well.

I once used houserules to achieve this effect, now I don't have to. My players and I just evolved in our gaming style to where we didn't need them, and they in fact hurt us.

but that's a thing of beauty. Getting to a point where you game game without being bogged down by the limits. After all gaming at it's core is just one big collaborative and interactive story. congrats.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #476 on: September 18, 2011, 05:00:22 AM »
but that's a thing of beauty. Getting to a point where you game game without being bogged down by the limits. After all gaming at it's core is just one big collaborative and interactive story. congrats.
Well, I'll admit that I do have to house rule some things still. Though it's always a collaborative effort between everyone at the gaming table. After all, you have to make sure everyone present is okay with the changes; otherwise it's unfair. Though this means only things that really need house ruling, for us, actually get it.

PS: Thanks for the congrats. ;)

Offline Kate

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #477 on: September 18, 2011, 07:26:19 AM »
if another addition appeared they would get more players / buyers if

a) The text was calligraphy and the paper of a texture and scent that smelled antique an authentic.
b) Had character sheets and special pens that could easily be erased / re-done.
c) Had all artwork not comical but realistic ... likely cg but with textures that seem in line with art during medievil periods.
d) Simplifed the game mechanics
e) Had more classes


Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #478 on: September 18, 2011, 07:52:07 AM »
if another addition appeared they would get more players / buyers if

a) The text was calligraphy and the paper of a texture and scent that smelled antique an authentic.
b) Had character sheets and special pens that could easily be erased / re-done.
c) Had all artwork not comical but realistic ... likely cg but with textures that seem in line with art during medievil periods.
d) Simplifed the game mechanics
e) Had more classes


f) mixed addictive drugs into the printing ink.
g) gave away a million dollars with every book purchased.
h) ended world hunger.


(Since I don't know what system you're referring to, these are things that would apply to any game).


EDIT: Actually, knowing gamers, ending world hunger would likely be met with widespread internet complaints about how they 'nerfed agriculture'.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 07:53:21 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #479 on: September 19, 2011, 04:27:55 AM »
EDIT: Actually, knowing gamers, ending world hunger would likely be met with widespread internet complaints about how they 'nerfed agriculture'.
Now isn't that true! lol

Offline MasterMischief

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #480 on: September 21, 2011, 01:46:31 PM »
e) Had more classes

Gah!  Dear lord in heaven, no!  I can not understand the appeal of Classes.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #481 on: September 21, 2011, 07:24:40 PM »
Gah!  Dear lord in heaven, no!  I can not understand the appeal of Classes.
That was my thought actually. More and more the D&D base is wanting away from classes, and there are plenty of games out there that let them do it.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #482 on: September 21, 2011, 07:53:59 PM »
And even inside D&D, the sheer number of archetypes/alternate class features/variant classes printed past and present have made classes increasingly meaningless.

Offline Alucarddalv

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #483 on: September 21, 2011, 08:00:36 PM »
Classes are nice when oyu have a few skeletal outlines to work from and then have choices and options to build your own unique variant. But when you just start printing up more and more classes that are just more op then the previous set it makes it so the core classes become useless and teaching a new player how to play impossible unless your entire group is new or will to work within the core rules. I for one tend to limit the material players have to choose from and state that if it sin't in one of these books then chances are extremely good I will deny it in my games.

That all said I love Besm D20 because it has rules for both a classed game and a classless system that even allows players that still want to use classes to be able to play along those that wish to go free form( IE. every ten character points is a level and oyu can either by your own stats or simlpy buy the next level in a class that is already premade.)

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #484 on: September 21, 2011, 08:12:35 PM »
When you're working with a game like D&D 4e, that (at least ostensibly) strives toward maintaining a fairly balanced playing field, introducing new classes that serve to give players new options and new tools (or toys) to play with isn't really a problem as far as I'm concerned.  Gives players more ways to keep themselves interested and engaged and play according to their styles without really disrupting anything.

On the other hand, 3.5 doesn't even give cursory consideration to class balance which is why I just kind of avoid that game.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #485 on: September 21, 2011, 08:16:36 PM »
When you're working with a game like D&D 4e, that (at least ostensibly) strives toward maintaining a fairly balanced playing field, introducing new classes that serve to give players new options and new tools (or toys) to play with isn't really a problem as far as I'm concerned.  Gives players more ways to keep themselves interested and engaged and play according to their styles without really disrupting anything.

On the other hand, 3.5 doesn't even give cursory consideration to class balance which is why I just kind of avoid that game.
We agree here, and come to think of it D&D 4th did most things that Kate mentioned... And as for the 3.5 comment, that's the supplement clunk and lack of playtesting coming into play.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #486 on: September 21, 2011, 08:21:57 PM »
To be fair, it was riding on a lot of other legacy baggage from 1st and 2nd editions, neither of which paid much heed to balance either. 1e was when they were still figuring out how this 'D&D' thing worked, and most of 2e operated under the mindset that roleplaying restrictions were an effective substitute for balance (for example, it didn't matter that a 11th-level druid could wreck anything's face because no campaign world had more than one 11th-level druid, and to become an 11th-level druid required beating the current one in a duel, that sort of thing). 3E was the world of options, options, options - magazines, splatbooks, web supplements, an endless cornocoupia of rules for everything you could possibly dream of to a point where balance would have been impossible even if they made an effort, simply from the sheer glut of material out there to pick from (along with the Law of Unintended Combinations, where a feat from one book and a spell from a book printed two years later would have game-breaking synergy with a monster printed in a magazine six months afterward).  4E was the first rendition of D&D where WotC held balance between classes as one of the primary design goals, and it shows - there are still comparative issues between roles (Rangers are regarded as the most powerful Strikers, for instance, and Assassins a rather weak Striker), but the baked-in roles ensure everyone is at least useful and relevant.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 08:23:51 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #487 on: September 21, 2011, 08:26:52 PM »
To be fair, it was riding on a lot of other legacy baggage from 1st and 2nd editions, neither of which paid much heed to balance either. 1e was when they were still figuring out how this 'D&D' thing worked, and most of 2e operated under the mindset that roleplaying restrictions were an effective substitute for balance (for example, it didn't matter that a 11th-level druid could wreck anything's face because no campaign world had more than one 11th-level druid, and to become an 11th-level druid required beating the current one in a duel, that sort of thing). 3E was the world of options, options, options - magazines, splatbooks, web supplements, an endless cornocoupia of rules for everything you could possibly dream of to a point where balance would have been impossible even if they made an effort, simply from the sheer glut of material out there to pick from (along with the Law of Unintended Combinations, where a feat from one book and a spell from a book printed two years later would have game-breaking synergy with a monster printed in a magazine six months afterward).  4E was the first rendition of D&D where WotC held balance between classes as one of the primary design goals, and it shows - there are still comparative issues between roles (Rangers are regarded as the most powerful Strikers, for instance, and Assassins a rather weak Striker), but the baked-in roles ensure everyone is at least useful and relevant.
This is true, but in my honest opinion; much of that was the difference in Wotc compared to TSR. I wouldn't say one was better then the other, but Wotc had to build on the work of TSR when they bought it out. A company that in truth held a much different idea of the game then they did, despite the fact that the lead was a great employee from the TSR days.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #488 on: September 21, 2011, 09:42:23 PM »
Gah!  Dear lord in heaven, no!  I can not understand the appeal of Classes.
Neither can I, actually, although if anyone wants to use classes, more power to them! To me, it's just an outdated mechanic that seldom adds anything to a game and usually impedes reflecting the changes in a character's personality.
Actually, I keep putting off this Apocalypse World game that everyone agrees is fantastic, just because it's got classes.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #489 on: September 21, 2011, 11:10:03 PM »
Apocalypse World is fantastic!  And it doesn't have classes, it has playbooks!  Totally different. :p

I think it's worth judging individual games on their own merits and not on the basis of poor performance of similar mechanics in different games.  Apocalypse World is one of those lumpley games (which are generally pretty fantastic), but what it seeks to accomplish is not at all like what most class-based games work for (ie, it is not about levelling up and killing monsters), so you might find the system less restraining (or more -- it is a very tight system that only really rolls for specific sorts of events in the first place.)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 11:20:21 PM by meikle »

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #490 on: September 22, 2011, 12:17:29 AM »
How do classes impede showing changes in personality? I don't understand that.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #491 on: September 22, 2011, 06:22:33 AM »
How do classes impede showing changes in personality? I don't understand that.
Consider a knight who had a life-changing event, like making a deal for power with the devil and becoming a spy and assassin for him at the Earth. In most class-based systems, he will never learn spy skills, black magic, not to mention the disadvantages associated with this.
And yes, I'm taking this example from Dave Morris' blog, as he pointed out how the system did the character a disservice.

Apocalypse World is fantastic!  And it doesn't have classes, it has playbooks!  Totally different. :p
I'll remember that in the future, but care to enlighten me about the difference :P?

Quote
I think it's worth judging individual games on their own merits and not on the basis of poor performance of similar mechanics in different games.  Apocalypse World is one of those lumpley games (which are generally pretty fantastic), but what it seeks to accomplish is not at all like what most class-based games work for (ie, it is not about levelling up and killing monsters), so you might find the system less restraining (or more -- it is a very tight system that only really rolls for specific sorts of events in the first place.)
I've found that some mechanics just engender a way of thinking that I don't want, no matter the system.
And as I said, I've been considering it for a while, but something else always got the priority when the time to spend the money came.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #492 on: September 22, 2011, 08:42:20 AM »
My beef with classes are that the designer's idea of an archtype and mine never match up. And this is a problem for every class-based or hybrid-based system I have ever encountered. They either outright restrict or discourage certain concepts. I would rather leave that to the GM. And yes, even point buy and skill based systems discourage some concepts, it is to a much lower degree.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #493 on: September 22, 2011, 09:39:50 AM »
Now I'm curious, what concepts would be discouraged by a point-buy game ;D?

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #494 on: September 22, 2011, 09:47:45 AM »
Now I'm curious, what concepts would be discouraged by a point-buy game ;D?
Depends, but typically it's one that the system doesn't encourage. For example, currently on GURPS I'm attempting to run a game based off the witchblade comics/series. The game honestly has trouble with this, as the setting isn't as gritty as GURPS anticipates. Thus the concept of a woman both blessed and cursed by the witchblade becomes difficult, especially when the various strengths and weaknesses the blade over time differ from what I can fnd in the book.

I'll have to porbably make up some disadvantages, and some more advantages to fit it in. Honestly, it'd probably work better on another system; but this is the only unisystem I own.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #495 on: September 22, 2011, 10:21:51 AM »
Now I'm curious, what concepts would be discouraged by a point-buy game ;D?

Depends on the point-buy. NWoD could be considered a point-buy, and it discourages a character who doesn't start hyperspecialized becoming an expert at anything, even if it's something they do almost exclusively ingame, by means of increasingly expensive costs for improving traits after chargen. You can do it, but the costs of being 'very good' at one thing equal those of being merely 'good' in two or even three things

Offline Dhi

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #496 on: September 22, 2011, 10:24:19 AM »
In my experience, point buy games operate by tiers. In White Wolf games, you can't buy greater powers until you first increase your Essence or Gnosis or what have you. In Shadowrun, it's very ill advised to buy greater accuracy until you first increase your key attribute.

This discourages characters who are good at only one aspect of their parent attribute. If you're good at shooting, you're also good at running. If you can cast highest circle sorcery, you can also kick a building to the moon. If you can keep your wits while poisoned, you can also survive a shotgun blast to the face.

I don't particularly know much about GURPS, so maybe that's not true for that system.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #497 on: September 22, 2011, 10:32:43 AM »
Depends on the point-buy. NWoD could be considered a point-buy, and it discourages a character who doesn't start hyperspecialized becoming an expert at anything, even if it's something they do almost exclusively ingame, by means of increasingly expensive costs for improving traits after chargen. You can do it, but the costs of being 'very good' at one thing equal those of being merely 'good' in two or even three things
I'd disagree here, but depending on the ST you may be right. Also, depending modifiers you may be correct. A game has never turned out that way for me, as 3 dots are all you really need in a skill to be effective at the beginning. At-least in my experience.
In my experience, point buy games operate by tiers. In White Wolf games, you can't buy greater powers until you first increase your Essence or Gnosis or what have you. In Shadowrun, it's very ill advised to buy greater accuracy until you first increase your key attribute.

This discourages characters who are good at only one aspect of their parent attribute. If you're good at shooting, you're also good at running. If you can cast highest circle sorcery, you can also kick a building to the moon. If you can keep your wits while poisoned, you can also survive a shotgun blast to the face.

I don't particularly know much about GURPS, so maybe that's not true for that system.
GURPS doesn't have a parent attribute for power, you have your attributes, secondary attributes, advantages, disadvantages and skills. It takes some work on the system to meld it to work for anything because it's a universal system and not all the options are appropriate for any given game. So it turns into a lot of the GM going "No, no, no; yes, but--". Sort of anyway.

So the issue I'm coming into with my witchblade game is that some of the abilities the witchblade gets are hard to manage with their rules set. Also, the increasing health degeneration of the bearer is a little hard to manage when you consider that terminal illness and other disadvantages only go so far to it. After all, the blade inevitably kills it's user while making her increasingly more deadly when transformed. The system is managing, but it's getting close to that breaking point under the strain.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #498 on: September 22, 2011, 10:36:44 AM »
Depends, but typically it's one that the system doesn't encourage. For example, currently on GURPS I'm attempting to run a game based off the witchblade comics/series. The game honestly has trouble with this, as the setting isn't as gritty as GURPS anticipates. Thus the concept of a woman both blessed and cursed by the witchblade becomes difficult, especially when the various strengths and weaknesses the blade over time differ from what I can fnd in the book.

I'll have to porbably make up some disadvantages, and some more advantages to fit it in. Honestly, it'd probably work better on another system; but this is the only unisystem I own.
Honestly, I don't know enough about the witchblade series to understand where the problem is. I guess you should look into the cinematic rules options and suggestions how to make the game less gritty, but that's all.

Depends on the point-buy. NWoD could be considered a point-buy, and it discourages a character who doesn't start hyperspecialized becoming an expert at anything, even if it's something they do almost exclusively ingame, by means of increasingly expensive costs for improving traits after chargen. You can do it, but the costs of being 'very good' at one thing equal those of being merely 'good' in two or even three things
Agreed, but I'll take discouraging a concept over making it impossible under the rules any day ;).

In my experience, point buy games operate by tiers. In White Wolf games, you can't buy greater powers until you first increase your Essence or Gnosis or what have you. In Shadowrun, it's very ill advised to buy greater accuracy until you first increase your key attribute.

This discourages characters who are good at only one aspect of their parent attribute. If you're good at shooting, you're also good at running. If you can cast highest circle sorcery, you can also kick a building to the moon. If you can keep your wits while poisoned, you can also survive a shotgun blast to the face.

I don't particularly know much about GURPS, so maybe that's not true for that system.
That's definitely untrue for GURPS, yeah, not to mention shooting and long distance running would be under different attributes ;D. If you have multiple skills under the same attribute, it's better to raise the attribute, but if you're only good at shooting and not a fast learner in related activities else, it's better to raise the skill and take related advantages like being a talented shooter.
And of course, there are also games where you only have specific skills, too, which avoid the whole issue of attributes >:)!

Offline Dhi

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #499 on: September 22, 2011, 10:54:38 AM »
Quickness is the parent attribute for firearms and also determines your running speed. Body only gives you a chance to increase your effective Quickness for running, and only if you're trained in the Running skill and spend your action running. Since you must roll to contribute Body to your run speed, it's possible to botch, which makes it risky. So although Body is the parent attribute for Athletics, it's not accurate to say that it's the key attribute for running.

Or maybe it's different in Shadowrun 4E. I've only played up to 3E.