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Author Topic: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games  (Read 42224 times)

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Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #450 on: August 30, 2011, 10:29:30 PM »
play with the errata!
It's about as much trouble to poke through the broken and fixed Errata as it is to simply balance it out in game with the players. I don't know about most people, but I hate my character changing mid game because some new 'Errata' came out. Especially since the definition of Errata doesn't match how they use the word at all. Oh, and most of it's player made and submitted to them anyway.

Though, for a 'quick' and simple fix for a strange group it would probably work better.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #451 on: August 30, 2011, 10:31:05 PM »
Welp, since the errata in this case just removes the 'crippling weakness' of the Spectral keyword...

Quote
Oh, and most of it's player made and submitted to them anyway.
citation needed

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #452 on: August 30, 2011, 10:32:03 PM »
Welp, since the errata in this case just removes the 'crippling weakness' of the Spectral keyword...
citation needed
Look at the white wolf forums, and then notice how the Errata pretty much matches the solutions most people are giving.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #453 on: August 30, 2011, 10:35:42 PM »
The errata hasn't even been updated since last November, so I guess I'll just have to get in my time machine to do that ...

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #454 on: August 30, 2011, 11:34:20 PM »
The errata hasn't even been updated since last November, so I guess I'll just have to get in my time machine to do that ...
The forums are archived, you know. It takes a bit of searching is all. I'd do it for you, but I have to be in bed in 30 minutes and still have posts to make. So, no time to satiate someone else's curiosity.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #455 on: August 31, 2011, 04:18:43 AM »
I've only heard of Savage Worlds before and typically have to introduce new systems to my group. How hard is it to GM without previous playing knowledge?
It's one of the simplest systems out there to run or play. If you read the advice in the books, the Survival guide and remember to give out bennies when you want an easier challenge, or to skip the bennies in order to make it harder, you should be able to run it just fine.
I mean, the stat blocks of most enemies are like 2 lines long, and that's if you want to have everything written, or for non-mooks that simply aren't on the PC level! Major enemies have statblocks that aren't much longer and even them can be improvised on the fly, while still playing RAW!

Just look at the quickstart and you'll understand how this works, and hit the SW forums or some forum like RPG.net if you've still got questions >:)!

Quote
In another topic: how does everyone else deal with the problem of variably optimized parties? Not just combat, in something like Exalted a good social spec can simply take over anything they want.

I've usually simply made different challenges to keep everyone engaged and given suggestions to people who are lagging behind. But I've had issues with having min/maxers and max/miners in the same game before.
I tend to explain to people that if they take some different mechanical solutions, they would be better at what they want to be good at.
In your example, I'd also warn them that they aren't going to match the fluff for Solars. If they persist, it's their choice, but I also let them redesign their characters mechanically, after the first major failure, or being outdone by the other PCs in their own area of expertise.
And if they want to fail consistently against any borderline competent Exalted or God-blooded, that's fine be me, too ;D!

Offline ExisD

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #456 on: August 31, 2011, 06:35:21 AM »
play with the errata!

There's way to much of it. Though I did just notice that the actual errata isn't the gigantic webpage that my players brought to me as errata, this was the ink monkey's stuff. 

Besides I just checked Abyssals errata on the official wiki and it says nothing about spectral though it does mostly fix Twilights.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 06:55:09 AM by ExisD »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #457 on: August 31, 2011, 06:56:48 AM »
There's way to much of it. Though I did just notice that the actual errata isn't the gigantic webpage that my players brought to me as errata, this was the ink monkey's stuff. 

Besides I just checked Abyssals errata on the official wiki and it says nothing about spectral though it does mostly fix Twilights.
That's my issue with it. I know because a lot of people mention the Errata right and left, but I can never find anything there. It's easier to work with my players and come up with something. Quicker too. Now I might consider using it for the forums here, since I don't know everyone that might play; but with some finesse, the game works as is.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #458 on: August 31, 2011, 12:33:37 PM »
That's my issue with it. I know because a lot of people mention the Errata right and left, but I can never find anything there. It's easier to work with my players and come up with something. Quicker too. Now I might consider using it for the forums here, since I don't know everyone that might play; but with some finesse, the game works as is.
Your finesse is no merit of the system, though ;).

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #459 on: August 31, 2011, 12:59:41 PM »
There's way to much of it. Though I did just notice that the actual errata isn't the gigantic webpage that my players brought to me as errata, this was the ink monkey's stuff. 

Besides I just checked Abyssals errata on the official wiki and it says nothing about spectral though it does mostly fix Twilights.

Spectral is cut out from a lot of the worst-offending Charms (Abyssal perfect defenses are no longer Spectral, for example.)  This is in the errata for individual Charms.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #460 on: August 31, 2011, 02:20:47 PM »
Exalted is the only game I know that feels like it actively HATES the 'storyteller'.  The amount of work needed to play a game 'straight' is INSANE.  Even if you play with a single Exalt type party, the ST not only needs to know those charms and how they interact, the ST needs to know all the charms of the various baddies they plan on throwing at the party.  Couple that with conflicting and unintentional power combos and you're in a world of hurt.

And hand waving is a tricky business, because you run the risk of invalidating some player builds and that's never fun.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #461 on: August 31, 2011, 06:40:06 PM »
Your finesse is no merit of the system, though ;).
Very true. Still, any ST/GM should have it. That goes for all games.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #462 on: August 31, 2011, 07:35:07 PM »
Very true. Still, any ST/GM should have it. That goes for all games.
True, but it's still detracting your attention from all the other things you could be doing. Besides, it's straining ;).
I guess that's why so many people use a different ruleset for Exalted.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #463 on: August 31, 2011, 07:47:10 PM »
True, but it's still detracting your attention from all the other things you could be doing. Besides, it's straining ;).
I guess that's why so many people use a different ruleset for Exalted.
I don't see it as straining. It doesn't distract me, it keeps things moving and me in the mood to solve things. That's kinda the ST's job; if he can't do it, then he needs to get another friend to take up the position. Just my opinion of course, I have always had terrible experiences with changing the rules. Errata or not, it's always turned bad for me. It's easier and clearer to handle myself. Especially when the rules work as written, typically there is a specific wording people overlook that takes care of it anyhow. Occasionally not, but that's still not hard to deal with especially considering I'm no matter what gonna have to deal with several other things in that very session. Stopping it to look online for additional rules just kills the mood. The book is bad enough about that.

Of course this is just my experiences. I know other people get a good deal of use out of the Errata. More power to em.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #464 on: September 01, 2011, 06:33:09 AM »
I don't see it as straining. It doesn't distract me, it keeps things moving and me in the mood to solve things. That's kinda the ST's job; if he can't do it, then he needs to get another friend to take up the position. Just my opinion of course, I have always had terrible experiences with changing the rules. Errata or not, it's always turned bad for me. It's easier and clearer to handle myself. Especially when the rules work as written, typically there is a specific wording people overlook that takes care of it anyhow. Occasionally not, but that's still not hard to deal with especially considering I'm no matter what gonna have to deal with several other things in that very session. Stopping it to look online for additional rules just kills the mood. The book is bad enough about that.

Of course this is just my experiences. I know other people get a good deal of use out of the Errata. More power to em.
I'm now starting to suspect you're also using a different meaning of "finesse", too ;).

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #465 on: September 01, 2011, 07:03:41 AM »
I'm now starting to suspect you're also using a different meaning of "finesse", too ;).
Finesse fits, by definition, what I'm meaning. Skillful handling of a situation. I think I have read that you need to be able to do that in almost every ST and GMs guide out there. Though I admittedly got a little off topic from my original point last night. Apologies for that.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #466 on: September 01, 2011, 08:24:06 AM »
Finesse fits, by definition, what I'm meaning. Skillful handling of a situation. I think I have read that you need to be able to do that in almost every ST and GMs guide out there. Though I admittedly got a little off topic from my original point last night. Apologies for that.
If that's what you mean, I'll just have to disagree. It is straining, and not good for the campaign IME!
The reason is, there are only so much things I can handle at once. Anything that requires extra-careful handling is draining on my capacity to handle player plots, subplots, evaluate an antagonist's actions or reactions to the what the PCs do, come up with interesting complications, and so on, which is standard GMing fare. Of course I could handle all of these and handle the system to avoid any potential problems stemming from it, but it's still leaving me with less potential!
Personally, I'd much rather use a system that doesn't need to be handled extra-carefully, and apply that extra capacity towards improving the game for the other players!

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #467 on: September 01, 2011, 09:24:34 AM »
If that's what you mean, I'll just have to disagree. It is straining, and not good for the campaign IME!
The reason is, there are only so much things I can handle at once. Anything that requires extra-careful handling is draining on my capacity to handle player plots, subplots, evaluate an antagonist's actions or reactions to the what the PCs do, come up with interesting complications, and so on, which is standard GMing fare. Of course I could handle all of these and handle the system to avoid any potential problems stemming from it, but it's still leaving me with less potential!
Personally, I'd much rather use a system that doesn't need to be handled extra-carefully, and apply that extra capacity towards improving the game for the other players!
Yeah, but I guess it comes from the fact that I don't know nor have I ever seen a system where there weren't some areas that had to be handled carefully. I see it as just part of the job, and it's not one I have issues with. Now, when I tried to change the rules or not maneuver things occasionally; that's when I had troubles. It's just different ways of handling things, every GM has them. I haven't had a complaint with it yet. ;)

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #468 on: September 01, 2011, 10:10:53 AM »
I have seen quite a few such games, but that might be down to my GMing style, since I don't believe some commonly perceived problems to be actual problems.
Still, it's just a matter of how many such areas there are, and most importantly, how much time I'd need to houserule the problem. IMO, if the problem is deeply encoded in the system, I just need another system that does what I want better.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #469 on: September 01, 2011, 10:48:11 AM »
I have seen quite a few such games, but that might be down to my GMing style, since I don't believe some commonly perceived problems to be actual problems.
Still, it's just a matter of how many such areas there are, and most importantly, how much time I'd need to houserule the problem. IMO, if the problem is deeply encoded in the system, I just need another system that does what I want better.
I'm not talking about houserules, I'm talking about the skillful handling of a situation the rule as given holds. I rarely houserule, there's often no need for it. Another reason I see the Errata as useless to me; anytime there actually has been a situation, a overview of the rule clears it up.

Occasionally, there is something people think is worded funny. Typically it's not.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #470 on: September 02, 2011, 02:24:33 AM »
I'm not talking about houserules, I'm talking about the skillful handling of a situation the rule as given holds. I rarely houserule, there's often no need for it. Another reason I see the Errata as useless to me; anytime there actually has been a situation, a overview of the rule clears it up.

Occasionally, there is something people think is worded funny. Typically it's not.
Indeed, you aren't talking about houserules. If you notice, though, I was talking about my criteria for comparison ;D!
And yes, I do houserule, it usually saves my time and efforts later.

Offline Vergil1989

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #471 on: September 17, 2011, 08:28:42 PM »
I unfortunately only have experience with 3.5 of DnD and very little of it as it were, so my involvement in this thread would be just as limited.  However, that doesn't mean I can't still offer at least a small opinion here.   ;D  I had a good experience with 3.5, what time I was able to devote to a skype based game ran with five other people, but RL kicked in before I could do anything worthwhile really, but regardless one of my characters I sometimes use here on E was born of that game and I still think of her quite fondly lol.  All that aside, I am currently trying to get ahold of some old DnD books for free online that doesn't involve going to 4shared.  I need magical rules, spells, stuff like that, as well as monsters and history of Toril if I can manage it.  Any help would greatly be appreciated since it's all for a book myself and Elf are putting together.

Offline Genbu83

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #472 on: September 17, 2011, 08:46:17 PM »
Regaurdless of a system; gamers will always find flaws. House rules aren't bad, in and of themselves, but the tend to address issues players and dms have with teh systems.

I'm a firm believer in making sure the stem is more fun for my players.

After all the trick to being a great DM is for your party to have a good time.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #473 on: September 18, 2011, 12:03:16 AM »
Regaurdless of a system; gamers will always find flaws. House rules aren't bad, in and of themselves, but the tend to address issues players and dms have with teh systems.

I'm a firm believer in making sure the stem is more fun for my players.

After all the trick to being a great DM is for your party to have a good time.
My thoughts, and when multiple gamers come together; it becomes harder to find house rules that fit the needs of everyone present. If the players are enjoying themselves, and everyone feels things are fair; then all is well.

I once used houserules to achieve this effect, now I don't have to. My players and I just evolved in our gaming style to where we didn't need them, and they in fact hurt us.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #474 on: September 18, 2011, 01:20:31 AM »
I unfortunately only have experience with 3.5 of DnD and very little of it as it were, so my involvement in this thread would be just as limited.  However, that doesn't mean I can't still offer at least a small opinion here.   ;D  I had a good experience with 3.5, what time I was able to devote to a skype based game ran with five other people, but RL kicked in before I could do anything worthwhile really, but regardless one of my characters I sometimes use here on E was born of that game and I still think of her quite fondly lol.  All that aside, I am currently trying to get ahold of some old DnD books for free online that doesn't involve going to 4shared.  I need magical rules, spells, stuff like that, as well as monsters and history of Toril if I can manage it.  Any help would greatly be appreciated since it's all for a book myself and Elf are putting together.
If you download this file, which is probably as legal as it gets, it might be useful for Toril. No idea how useful, as I haven't even opened it, lacking any interest whatsoever in the setting ;). Still, should be better than nothing, right?

Regarding magical rules and spells, do you need D&D 3.5, would an earlier edition be preferable, or would another system be useful if it fits your criteria? What are your criteria, actually? Since you mentioned "old D&D books", I'd recommend you looking at some retroclones. Some of them are actually free in PDF format, and of course, they do contain enough magic rules for their edition. Sword&Wizardry and OSRIC seem to be enjoying some popularity, and since they're free, you don't risk much :P!
Still, the better you define what you're looking about, the more I could help ;D.

Regaurdless of a system; gamers will always find flaws.
Obviously I suck at being a gamer, since there are systems that I can't reasonably find flaws in >:)!

My thoughts, and when multiple gamers come together; it becomes harder to find house rules that fit the needs of everyone present. If the players are enjoying themselves, and everyone feels things are fair; then all is well.

I once used houserules to achieve this effect, now I don't have to. My players and I just evolved in our gaming style to where we didn't need them, and they in fact hurt us.
I was able to understand your point up to the part in bold. Care to clarify how house rules hurt you?
I guess that's a hyperbole for "reduced our fun", but I still don't get how it happened. After all, house rules are stuff you decided to add to or remove from the game. Since you know your preferences best, how could you possibly get houserules you dislike?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 08:10:54 AM by Thufir Hawat »